Sleved cylinder Knocks

[skipperdude]

When I did the rebuild of the top end I was hoping to take care of a slight knock.

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

If you look at the nearest cylinder in the photo you can see more carbon built up around the top edge.

After I got it running I opened the injector and the knock went away.

She has been running with*that knock since 92 I guess it will just be that way.

Point being that if it sounds like an injector knock doesn't always mean it is.

Dang!!!

SD

 

[JD]

skipperdude wrote:
When I did the rebuild of the top end I was hoping to take care of a slight knock.

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

She has been running with*that knock since 92 I guess it will just be that way.

SD

Not in my engine it wouldn't.

32nd of an inch is quite a bit.* Why didn't you fix it when you had it apart.*That thing is gonna break it is just a matter of when. *Did you check to see if they make that sleeve with different heights?* What is holding that sleeve down?* Is it going up an down?* Can't be it would break the seal at the bottom if it hasn't already.*

 

[skipperdude]

The first reason is in order to fix it I would have to cut The cabin apart. The block is to wide to come out any other way.

When I put a new roof on the boat I found where a large section was removed to install the motor.

It is the second motor in her or at least the major portion there of.

She sank in 92 and the motor was rebuilt . Apparently with a reconditioned block.

Looking at it.**There didn't seem to be any indication of it moving. None that I or the mechanic helping me could see.

The biggest reason is cost I just don't have the money right now. And I am thinking about a total repower next fall.

We didn't really notice the issue until we were ready to put it back together again. And we were not sure what the problems if any it is causing.

It has always had the knock it does go away after she gets warmed up.

At least to barley noticeable.

Cat does make a different head gasket for a sleeved engine so I think I will try the different gasket. The openings around the cylinder is bigger on the sleeved engine gasket. Do you think it will help?

Well I only have to take down one side of the engine this time.

SD

*



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 03:27:55 PM


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 03:31:51 PM

 

[JD]

I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.

 

[skipperdude]

JD wrote:
I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.

*If you look at the photo you will see that the gasket comes right to the edge of the cylinder walls. I think it is sealed by the head torqued to the block. I am going to first try the new head gasket. Just to be sure I don't blow*it. Like I said the gasket for the sleeved engine just has bigger holes than the one for non sleeved engines. Cat said it will not make* any difference as to how it seals.

SD

*

 

[JD]

skipperdude wrote:JD wrote:
I'm not sure the engine would have to had come out.* Will the oil pan come off of the bottom or even just lifting the engine a bit?* I'm not certain that it could not have been replace from the top with out removing the oil pan.* That would depend what kind of sealing ring it has on the bottom.* If it is a rubber O ring I'm thinking it would have been easy.* But maybe not.

My guess is the knocking is coming from carbon build up at the gap.* The real question is what keeps the head gasket from blowing out there and what stops any thing from going down into the oil?* There is no seal there.* The seal comes from the sleeve sticking out proud (called protuberance )*of the head a couple of thousands of an inch.* That is what seals the sleeve to the head gasket.* I'm surprised it doesn't wash diesel into the oil pan and water jacket.

RickB can jump in here or Forklift any time now.

*If you look at the photo you will see that the gasket comes right to the edge of the cylinder walls. I think it is sealed by the head torqued to the block. I am going to first try the new head gasket. Just to be sure I don't blow*it. Like I said the gasket for the sleeved engine just has bigger holes than the one for non sleeved engines. Cat said it will not make* any difference as to how it seals.

SD

*

*"Cat does make a different head gasket for a sleeved engine so I think I will try the different gasket. The openings around the cylinder is bigger on the sleeved engine gasket. Do you think it will help?"

Is the whole engine sleeved or just the one cylinder?

What came off when you tore it down?*What gasket is in there now? *Did you tell CAT what you found when you tore it down?* Certainly CAT didn't say just put it back together. *The gasket for sleeves needs the*sleeves to be proud or it will not seal no matter how hard you torque the head.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:12:53 PM

 

[skipperdude]

The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM

 

[RickB]

skipperdude wrote:

When The motor was torn down I found that the number 8 cylinder had a sleeve in it and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.

The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

Which one is correct?

why only one hole sleeved? It is difficult to believe someone would only sleeve one hole. If nothing else it makes for weird head gasketing.

 

[skipperdude]

There was only one cylinder sleeved.

Looked to be a reworked block. There was also some brazing on the water side.

As to the wierd gasketing do you think the gasket for a sleeved motor will be OK?

SD

 

[JD]

skipperdude wrote:
The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM

*Now I'* confused.* In your first post you said "and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.".* Now you are saying "The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. ".* So which is it?

If it is even then you have one problem if it is down 1/32" of an inch you have a different problem.

I'm guessing that the reason for one sleeve is that it either blew a piston or*tore up*the cylinder and the correct fix was a new block but this was the fix of choice.

If you have the non sleeve gasket in there and that was what it was running on then I would let sleeping dogs lie.* Especially if you are going to re power it next year anyway.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:48:36 PM

 

[skipperdude]

JD wrote:skipperdude wrote:
The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. Not sure I know what you are talking about. The gasket for a sleeved engine has a wider opening than a gasket for a non sleeved engine. There is only one sleeved cylinder on my engine.

SD



-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 04:22:13 PM

*Now I'* confused.* In your first post you said "and that the sleeve was about a 32nd of an inch below the surface of the block.".* Now you are saying "The sleeve runs flush with the top of the block. ".* So which is it?

If it is even then you have one problem if it is down 1/32" of an inch you have a different problem.

I'm guessing that the reason for one sleeve is that it either blew a piston or*tore up*the cylinder and the correct fix was a new block but this was the fix of choice.

* Sleeves run flush with the top of the block. My one cylindre #8 is the one with the recessed sleeve, and only that cylinder is sleeved

 

[JD]

skipperdude wrote:
*Sleeves run flush with the top of the block. My one cylindre #8 is the one with the recessed sleeve, and only that cylinder is sleeved

*So all of the block is sleeved and just number 8 is the problem sleeve because it is to short by 1/32".* Is that correct?* What gasket came out when you tore it down and what is in there now?

 

[skipperdude]

No.**Just #8 is sleeved The rest of the block is not sleeved.**The gasket was the one for the regular unsleeved 3208.**The 3208 is not a sleeved engine.

The gasket now in the motor is the one for an unsleeved motor.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 05:02:14 PM

 

[JD]

skipperdude wrote:
No.**Just #8 is sleeved and the gasket was the one for the regular unsleeved 3208.**The 3208 is not a sleeved engine.

*If you have the non sleeve gasket in there and that was what it was running on then I would let sleeping dogs lie.* Especially if you are going to re power it next year anyway.

RickB. Comments.

*

 

[RickB]

JD wrote:RickB. Comments.

Between the brazing and only one hole with a sleeve and it knocks I would just run the darn thing, stick close to a tow, and hope for the best until the repower.

If it ran like that for the past X many years with the same symptoms I guess it could do it for another year or so. This does beg the question of why the overheating or whatever lead to the partial rebuild in the first place though.

I would just run it and not put any more money in it.

I am curious about how that liner got pressed in too far. Was it actually pressed in and just accepted that way or did a partial piston siezure pull it down? Or? Is it loose? Can you pull it back with a standoff and puller?

That engine definitely ain't right but that doesn't mean it won't run for a while.

 

[FF]

You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.

 

[JD]

FF wrote:
You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.

*I like that Fred.* But in his case he is probably better off letting it be.* It runs why take the head off again.* That would have maybe worked when he had the head off the first time.* A little shade tree, no a lot shade tree but it could work.

 

[Forkliftt]

FF wrote:
You might install a solid copper piece of wire on top of the cylinder that is thicker than the 1/32 gap , that will crush down as the head is torqued down.

This will hold the cylinder from lifting and falling , if that is the noise.

If that movement caused the "noise", after 40 revolutions the "noise" would cease. As would the engine:smile: I say run it.

 

[skipperdude]

RickB wrote:*This does beg the question of why the overheating or whatever lead to the partial rebuild in the first place though.

I am curious about how that liner got pressed in too far. Was it actually pressed in and just accepted that way or did a partial piston siezure pull it down? Or? Is it loose? Can you pull it back with a standoff and puller?

*

It didn't seem loose, It looked like it had been in that position for a long time, all though I was able to move the piston in the cylinder. not much but it did move a little when I tried.

The knock isn't loud.**Most people may not even notice it.

Looking at ways of installing a sky light to be able to remove it come fall.

SD

 

[RickB]

skipperdude wrote:It didn't seem loose, It looked like it had been in that position for a long time, all though I was able to move the piston in the cylinder. not much but it did move a little when I tried.

If it was loose enough to feel it would have self-destructed a long time ago.

The piston movement is something to think about though ... how did you move it?

If it moved and the crank didn't turn at all there is either play in the wrist pin or big end bearing and that isn't good, especially if it is the wrist pin.

 

[skipperdude]

I moved it side to side not up and down. I didn't use a tool, just with my fingers. The rest were firm in place. It took a bit of pressure to get it to move. but it did move slightly. Enough to say it moved.

SD

 

[Edelweiss]

Interesting post you have going here.* I have never seen a single cylinder sleeve job done on*a 3208 CAT diesel before.*

Although it isn't uncommon in some*gas engine blocks.* I'm into Mopar car restoration and it's important to a cars value to keep the correct*numbers matching engine block and transmission*with the car.* If you scatter the original engine, they will often install a sleeve to replace a bad jug.* Crazy but true.

It will be interesting to hear how this turns out.

Good luck

Larry B

 

[Capn Craig]

here's my theory and I'm sticking to it.** The issue in question is the knock, the sleeve is a separate and unrelated issue.**

My sleeve theory is that the sleeve is evidence that something bad happened to that cylinder and the block was in otherwise good shape.* And this is Alaska, so maybe the cost and time to ship a new block made the refurbishing with a*sleeve more attractive.** The 3208 is not a sleeved block.* So, a sleeve repair would not need to be replaceable.* That being the case, maybe the sleeve was interference shrink fit pressed.* In the process it slipped too deep, and*warmed to stick in that position before it could be raised.**In this scenario, it would be impossibe to*move and cause no future problems so it was used as is.* If the sleeve were moving, there would be visible evidence.* If it were sliding up and down 0.030", by now it would have worn to the point of falling out.

The knock:* SD said that before the knock was worst when cold and got quieter as the engine warmed.* That would be what I would expect,.* As the engine warms the bearing journals warm, and swell.* As a result bearing clearances close and knocks get quieter.

My theory for the root cause of the knock is rack injection timing.**Perhaps*the knocking cylinder just needs its fuel timing retarded a slight amount.*** Al motors have a certain amount of inplay in their bearings, but injection fuel a little early in the cycle should have a very similar effect as preignition (spark knock) in a gasser.* This reverses the load on the bearings and causes the knock.

Back when I was a broke college student.* I had a 1964 Buick Skylark with a warped head, that I was trying to fix on the cheap.* I pulled the heads, had them surfaced and the valves ground. and put it back together.* My dad warned me, doing the heads without touching the rings might cause it to start burning oil.* The worn rings have a harder time sealing against the higher compression allowed by the tighter valves.* Turns out, he was right.

FEEL FREE TO SHOOT HOLES IN MY THEORY.* AFTER ALL, IT IS MINE AND I'M STICKING TO IT.

*

 

[Edelweiss]

Good theory Capt. Craig and I'm with you on all of it until you got to the root cause.

My root cause theory is worn wrist pins, plain and simple.* As the engine warms up metal expands and the noise quiets down.* And I'm sticking to it too!!*

There is no way that sleeve is moving around.* It would have*ground the hole out by now.

Larry B

 

[Capn Craig]

Larry,* I think we aggree.* I didn't mean to imply that the knock wasn't a wrist pin or maybe a*rod journal.* What I theorize is that fuel timing is making it louder and more apparent than it would otherwise be.

So,* The boat runs, the beer is cold (it's Alaska), and the*fish are biting, lets fish.

 

[Island Cessna]

My guess is that the 1/32 clearance between the sleeve and deck of the block adds enough additional clearance volume to change the compression ratio of that cylinder. The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different. Drive it and forget it, nothing bad will happen.

Bill


-- Edited by Island Cessna on Friday 9th of March 2012 02:01:53 AM

 

[skipperdude]

Capn Craig wrote:
My theory for the root cause of the knock is rack injection timing.**Perhaps*the knocking cylinder just needs its fuel timing retarded a slight amount.***

*

*Cap'tn. Is there any way to lessen the ammount of fuel that the injector is supplying to the cylinder.

I know the pressure can be adjusted but wouldn't that just cause the injector to fire early still supplying the same ammount of fuel.

SD

 

[Edelweiss]

Island Cessna wrote:
My guess is that the 1/32 clearance between the sleeve and deck of the block adds enough additional clearance volume to change the compression ratio of that cylinder. The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different. Drive it and forget it, nothing bad will happen.

Bill



-- Edited by Island Cessna on Friday 9th of March 2012 02:01:53 AM

That's a good one too Bill !!*

My slip neighbor says, "It's a CAT for god sakes!! They rattle like my Aunt Matilda's dentures."* "Drive it and quit complaining!!"*

LMAO

Larry B

 

[RickB]

Island Cessna wrote:
The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different.

How does that work?

Advance or retard timing to correct the issue?

 

[Island Cessna]

RickB wrote:Island Cessna wrote:
The different compression ratio creates the knock, as the optimum injection timing of that cylinder is different.

How does that work?

Advance or retard timing to correct the issue?

*If that's the cause of the knock there is nothing you can do about it. Injection timing is one setting for the whole motor. Time it right for the other 7, and live with the knock for this one.

Bill