O C Diver
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Sometimes the Ditch (AICW) is a better choice
- Thread starter O C Diver
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. OC. I strongly suspect there is quite a bit more to this story than is being let on. It's a SAIL boat for goodness sakes. They couldn't sail to shore?????
(couldn't read the story due to Fox wanting me to disable ad-blocker. Sorry Fox. Not going to happen.)
Mr. OC. I strongly suspect there is quite a bit more to this story than is being let on. It's a SAIL boat for goodness sakes. They couldn't sail to shore?????
(couldn't read the story due to Fox wanting me to disable ad-blocker. Sorry Fox. Not going to happen.)
Osprey69
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OK. I will be the bad guy here.
They left NC in December in a Catalina 30. Nuf' said.
Glad they are OK. Hopefully they wont repeat that mistake again.
They left NC in December in a Catalina 30. Nuf' said.
Glad they are OK. Hopefully they wont repeat that mistake again.
psneeld
Guru
Exactly.... they better say their thanks to a higher power than merchantmen and the USCG.
Rounding Hatteras this time of year, in that boat with my guess from hearing them speak, less than required experience and skillset, they are dang lucky to still be living.
Just proves how close anyone can come to dying starting off thinking boating is easy...well.... it is when you know what you are doing. But it seems few and far between boaters really do when it comes to real cruising.
CharlieO.
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If I remember reading correctly somewhere, they were fairly new boaters?
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. rs. Thanks. That explains a lot.
Mr. rs. Thanks. That explains a lot.
Hippocampus
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Had a friend of wife’s with us who’d periodically ask about going outside and using the various inlets. Looks like it would save significant time. But I had concerns about new to us boat so did it all inside AICW. We did luck out and saw no weather until today. Now seeing dogs blowing off their chains with the gusts but only minor chop. My feeling is why be uncomfortable or subject the boat and yourselves to stress when it can be avoided.
As regards this boat would have liked 3 onboard and one <50y.o. if possible. Also would have choose a different boat. Looking at gribs conditions weren’t that severe. Just glad that ship was so good as to help. They are to be commended. Of course it wonderful these guys made out.
As regards this boat would have liked 3 onboard and one <50y.o. if possible. Also would have choose a different boat. Looking at gribs conditions weren’t that severe. Just glad that ship was so good as to help. They are to be commended. Of course it wonderful these guys made out.
OldManMirage
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It should also be noted that the boat is a Catalina 30. It is not an "off-shore" boat by any means. My guess is the rigging was old and something gave way causing the loss of the mast. Although I'm unclear as to what may have happened to the engine.
I’m wondering if they even knew there was such a thing as the AICW. Because, I’m thinking like you, why in the world would you take an old boat like that offshore, as a new boater.
We all think we were born knowing about the ICW, but I still remember how excited I was when I learned about it, when I moved to the gulf coast in my twenties!
High Wire
Guru
Lots of questions from this story... They made it to NC but didn't see the need to take on water, fuel, or food. They flagged the tanker down with a green flag. Some reports say red flag. Not even an orange PFD? Saving the flares for when they are sinking? Why on earth did they sail EAST out of NC into the Gulf Stream?
Going to FL in December by ocean. Just goes to show there's no planning like NO PLANNING! What could go wrong?
Going to FL in December by ocean. Just goes to show there's no planning like NO PLANNING! What could go wrong?
I first read of this in the commercial marine press.
This was a disaster in the making from leaving Cape May,NJ.
As the trip goes, left in Dec on the Atlantic head south, several mistakes here.
Ran aground coming into a port in Va.
Leave again heading south, ran OUT of fuel, poor planning, batteries dead. No kidding, they "planned" to sail, yea right. Been there done that seldom occurs, a trip like that is under power and I mean gas/diesel NOT wind.
Heavy seas encountered, big DUH on that. December, Atlantic.
Loses mast. Runs out of FUEL and WATER, more of that pesky failure to plan.
Northern set to current, another DUH.
Obviously: No concept of sea anchor
No EPIRB
Runs out of fuel, lack of planning see above
Battery dead, again duh. Sailboat, trying to sail run out of fuel
No spare fuel, no way to charge battery, obviously no hand held radio and or NO spare batteries
Far out of search area, see no sea anchor no epirb, nor radio.
Then when see tanker no flares, no distress flag no radio contact.
These guys should be charged for the taxpayer expense of this.
Not to mention putting so many OTHERS lives in danger for their lack of planning.
I saw the list of government assets alone devoted to this search of over 21,000 sq miles where they "should" have been and were not through their incompetence. (multiple helicopters, jets, cutter, boats and the list goes on)
I am off the soap box now, it is just disheartening when something like this is reported and how EASY it would have been for them to acquire the knowledge to safely make the trip.
By the way I have passed through that area twice on my trawler.
CCC
This was a disaster in the making from leaving Cape May,NJ.
As the trip goes, left in Dec on the Atlantic head south, several mistakes here.
Ran aground coming into a port in Va.
Leave again heading south, ran OUT of fuel, poor planning, batteries dead. No kidding, they "planned" to sail, yea right. Been there done that seldom occurs, a trip like that is under power and I mean gas/diesel NOT wind.
Heavy seas encountered, big DUH on that. December, Atlantic.
Loses mast. Runs out of FUEL and WATER, more of that pesky failure to plan.
Northern set to current, another DUH.
Obviously: No concept of sea anchor
No EPIRB
Runs out of fuel, lack of planning see above
Battery dead, again duh. Sailboat, trying to sail run out of fuel
No spare fuel, no way to charge battery, obviously no hand held radio and or NO spare batteries
Far out of search area, see no sea anchor no epirb, nor radio.
Then when see tanker no flares, no distress flag no radio contact.
These guys should be charged for the taxpayer expense of this.
Not to mention putting so many OTHERS lives in danger for their lack of planning.
I saw the list of government assets alone devoted to this search of over 21,000 sq miles where they "should" have been and were not through their incompetence. (multiple helicopters, jets, cutter, boats and the list goes on)
I am off the soap box now, it is just disheartening when something like this is reported and how EASY it would have been for them to acquire the knowledge to safely make the trip.
By the way I have passed through that area twice on my trawler.
CCC
Osprey69
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Another thing confuses me as well...nobody, not a soul, in these two gents world ever thought to say to them - "Hey, this may not be a good idea". It does not take a rocket scientist to know that it is cold/windy/rainy/snowy on land in December, much less on water.
Nobody? Wow.
Nobody? Wow.
psneeld
Guru
Left NJ in December for Florida 6 years in a row 2012-2017....not a huge deal if you stay inside and don't mind the cold and inconvenience if places are closed or partially closed until south of Norfolk.
Plenty of people on TF have said winter cruising is no big deal, but it does come with some caveats, some not to be broken without serious warning.
Plenty of people on TF have said winter cruising is no big deal, but it does come with some caveats, some not to be broken without serious warning.
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Easternshore
Senior Member
Sometimes finding a new hobby is a better choice.
Kevin Hyde and Joe Ditomasso appear to have lots in common with the poor excuses for boaters, “sailor wannabes” shown on you tube’s Wavy Boat video site who venture out of Florida’s Haulover Inlet on days no-one should attempt the inlet with a boatload of people none of whom are wearing PFDs, especially children with no PDFs. The article reads as if they were ill prepared for any cruise much less an off shore passage. They were lucky.
Kevin Hyde and Joe Ditomasso appear to have lots in common with the poor excuses for boaters, “sailor wannabes” shown on you tube’s Wavy Boat video site who venture out of Florida’s Haulover Inlet on days no-one should attempt the inlet with a boatload of people none of whom are wearing PFDs, especially children with no PDFs. The article reads as if they were ill prepared for any cruise much less an off shore passage. They were lucky.
Hippocampus
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We’ve done NJ multiple times after November 1 and even after December 1. Seems to be these people have no concept how to prepare a boat for travel nor only using suitable weathe windows for the vessel.
On another site populated by blue water sailors there was a discussion about having folks requiring outside assistance due to unseamanlike behavior inherit the costs involved.
One one side there was the argument it would impend people asking for help resulting in unnecessary deaths.
On the other if would decrease the number of people taking off on such foolish transits.
My personal opinion is there should be some form of personal responsibility. Perhaps first they skate but are required to take some form of education. Failure to do so results in a fine.
Second time you’re fined and education is mandatory.
Third time you cover all costs and can can no longer register nor document a boat.
Your thoughts?
On another site populated by blue water sailors there was a discussion about having folks requiring outside assistance due to unseamanlike behavior inherit the costs involved.
One one side there was the argument it would impend people asking for help resulting in unnecessary deaths.
On the other if would decrease the number of people taking off on such foolish transits.
My personal opinion is there should be some form of personal responsibility. Perhaps first they skate but are required to take some form of education. Failure to do so results in a fine.
Second time you’re fined and education is mandatory.
Third time you cover all costs and can can no longer register nor document a boat.
Your thoughts?
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. (Dr.) H. "...it would impend people asking for help resulting in unnecessary deaths." Perhaps it might cause some deaths but those deaths may also cause some people to wise-up and not take the chance if highly publicized. I say impose the costs.
There are two problems I can immediately see. Who is to say the rescuee was ill prepared and should pay the costs and, of course, good ole' Dunning Kroeger....
Anecdote: The Admiral and I have had occasion to engage in somewhat heated discussions as to go or no-go. Me, being the weather weenie I am, have prevailed, thus far.
Mr. (Dr.) H. "...it would impend people asking for help resulting in unnecessary deaths." Perhaps it might cause some deaths but those deaths may also cause some people to wise-up and not take the chance if highly publicized. I say impose the costs.
There are two problems I can immediately see. Who is to say the rescuee was ill prepared and should pay the costs and, of course, good ole' Dunning Kroeger....
Anecdote: The Admiral and I have had occasion to engage in somewhat heated discussions as to go or no-go. Me, being the weather weenie I am, have prevailed, thus far.
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OP
OP
O C Diver
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Make it (rescue reimbursement) required by law as part of a boat's liability insurance policy (make boat liability insurance a requirement for registration / documentation). I think it’s absurd that you can operate a boat of significance (not a kayak, canoe, row boat, etc.) without insurance but it's required for a car.
Ted
mvweebles
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Chalk it up to SAR training?
Yesterday I was talking with the yard manager here in Ensenada. He informs that all boats are inspected annually by thr Port Captains office. Sounds lofty until he told me the inspection isn't all that thorough. One boat passed because although his running lights were operable, the single-bulb fitting was mounted upside down thus showing red/stbd and green/port.
Peter
SteveK
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At the time being part of SAR and getting a go at 2am was
a thrill. Now much older your words are spot on. it should be an insurance item and the insurance should require a minimum of experience for the boat being insured.**** happens, out of pocket costs should not deter a call for assistance.
psneeld
Guru
The USCG has always been pretty well fully funded for SAR by taxpayer money except for large rescues/disaster relief where special funding is requested. Training isn't really an issue as that expense is usually traded off on rescues.... the money not spent on one is used for the other. (at least that's the way it was for a long time.)
Ask me... I could care less if people call in for rescue. I care when I call in for rescue. Bet most here would too and for their friends and relatives.
But it's when boaters hesitate and the weather goes south or something as bad and now the call goes out because the people think they are going to die and NOW will find the money to pay...that can put rescuers in more danger. Bad juju in my book. Been there, done that.... as both the pilot and the sender of SAR units.
Do we charge people for all the other bone headed mistakes in life? Everything from dangerous activities to living in flood plains to bad health decisions? The USCG had debated this forever...they will fine people for false distress but have never been favorable for charging for rescues that I know of.
Heck, I would have loved to charge a bunch for rescues and received/given a tip to crews that hung it out doing them. Would'a fattened up the old retirement account and I might have had a helo pad on my last boat. Would have helped on many a good Samaritan rescue.....
Ask me... I could care less if people call in for rescue. I care when I call in for rescue. Bet most here would too and for their friends and relatives.
But it's when boaters hesitate and the weather goes south or something as bad and now the call goes out because the people think they are going to die and NOW will find the money to pay...that can put rescuers in more danger. Bad juju in my book. Been there, done that.... as both the pilot and the sender of SAR units.
Do we charge people for all the other bone headed mistakes in life? Everything from dangerous activities to living in flood plains to bad health decisions? The USCG had debated this forever...they will fine people for false distress but have never been favorable for charging for rescues that I know of.
Heck, I would have loved to charge a bunch for rescues and received/given a tip to crews that hung it out doing them. Would'a fattened up the old retirement account and I might have had a helo pad on my last boat. Would have helped on many a good Samaritan rescue.....
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. ps. There is a difference between a well prepared boater being sucker punched by weather changes and a poorly prepared boater not being aware that weather happens, IMO. As I alluded to in my post (#21) who decides how prepared the boater or the boat is?
It seems to me the pair mentioned by the OP were very poorly equipped and experienced to venture away from the dock.
Mr. ps. There is a difference between a well prepared boater being sucker punched by weather changes and a poorly prepared boater not being aware that weather happens, IMO. As I alluded to in my post (#21) who decides how prepared the boater or the boat is?
It seems to me the pair mentioned by the OP were very poorly equipped and experienced to venture away from the dock.
psneeld
Guru
Doesn't usually matter, you only find out after the rescue.
It's pretty cool that Florida gives a break on registration if you can prove you have a PLB/EPIRB. Should be for all juridictions.
And don't worry, some government would set up guidelines to determine that....even if they considered charging. But reality would be better it increase requirements to go to sea.
Heck, I would have gladly served on that committee.
Plus the usual defense is "boating by reason of insanity" and all it would take is a glance at this forum to see the instability of most boaters, even the seasoned ones.....
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. ps. "boating by reason of insanity" Yep. Present.
Happy New Year.
Mr. ps. "boating by reason of insanity" Yep. Present.
Happy New Year.
Hippocampus
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A New England story. Unfortunately don’t recall the details. Perhaps someone here does. A father son team made several attempts to cross the North Atlantic. Early on each resulted in a SAR event. Finally on their last attempt the harbormaster stopped them as they were leaving port preventing them from starting again.
I’ve been called overdue. SAR was unsuccessful in finding us. As you can see we were able to self rescue. However I can clearly see how skilled sailors in a good boat (it was a Hinckley pilot) can be in extremis. I wouldn’t want anyone to not call mayday due to issues of possible impending expense. However I’m aware there are many clueless or hubris filled individuals who are a danger to themselves and others (their rescuers). For both motor vehicle and airplane accidents post mortem analysis occurs. For vessels similar and sometimes admiralty court. I could see a system whereby such an analysis occurs and is presented to a court anytime SARS is called. That court then decides suitable penalties. This sounds good in theory. However, all to often the involved individuals are judgment proof having empty pockets limiting the impact of such a system.
I’ve been called overdue. SAR was unsuccessful in finding us. As you can see we were able to self rescue. However I can clearly see how skilled sailors in a good boat (it was a Hinckley pilot) can be in extremis. I wouldn’t want anyone to not call mayday due to issues of possible impending expense. However I’m aware there are many clueless or hubris filled individuals who are a danger to themselves and others (their rescuers). For both motor vehicle and airplane accidents post mortem analysis occurs. For vessels similar and sometimes admiralty court. I could see a system whereby such an analysis occurs and is presented to a court anytime SARS is called. That court then decides suitable penalties. This sounds good in theory. However, all to often the involved individuals are judgment proof having empty pockets limiting the impact of such a system.
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psneeld
Guru
The USCG can stop "unsafe voyages". If you know of one....call it in.
I was involved when a couple legally blind guys tried to "solo" race each other across the Atlantic.
The starts were not stopped because this county really refrains from stopping individual liberties, but after 2 failed starts (I think it was 2), the USCG did stop them.
Most here would bellyache with more government intrusion.... it it were up to some in government, probably a HIUGE number of people who own boats here on TF would never be underway because of solid, sane survival restrictions.
An old joke when the USCG was getting new helos back in the early 80's...lots of pilots joked give us retired US Army Apache gunships to take out 1/3 of all boaters so the others got the message.
No....nothing needs to be done...the system is working just about as it should.... anything less is mayhem, any thing more is a police state.
That is true of so many facets of our lives.
I was involved when a couple legally blind guys tried to "solo" race each other across the Atlantic.
The starts were not stopped because this county really refrains from stopping individual liberties, but after 2 failed starts (I think it was 2), the USCG did stop them.
Most here would bellyache with more government intrusion.... it it were up to some in government, probably a HIUGE number of people who own boats here on TF would never be underway because of solid, sane survival restrictions.
An old joke when the USCG was getting new helos back in the early 80's...lots of pilots joked give us retired US Army Apache gunships to take out 1/3 of all boaters so the others got the message.
No....nothing needs to be done...the system is working just about as it should.... anything less is mayhem, any thing more is a police state.
That is true of so many facets of our lives.
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