Stay sail

[tedted]

But were they mono-hulls or cats? That debate sucked up some bandwidth over on the "other" forum.

But I think it's safe here to say I've observed the same thing. Outside the mouths of harbors, which are filled with day-sailors, we typically see cruising sailboats motoring, regardless of conditions. We have a name for them: a power boat with a stick. We actually make a comment about it on those rare occasions we're offshore or coasting away from ports and see a boat actually sailing.

Just don't tell the sailors, they'll never let me post on "their" forum again!

As a retired sailor I have to say on Lake Erie, A true sailor today is a rare breed. We kept our boat at a sailing club with 300 keel boats. 90% sat on any given day gathering scum on their keels. The ones that did get out had sails up only on the rare perfect day. There was only one boat (not us) that were real sailors. I was constantly in awe of them. We'd be heading home under power with head on 25 knot winds in stormy conditions. There they'd be beating into the storms happy as clams waving and smiling???

My wife and I played a little game trying to figure out why we'd be seeing boats sails down motoring in fantastic conditions. We finally realized that we saw them in the greatest numbers on Sunday around noon. We finally realized that they were coming back from the Islands after a night of excessive revelry. A hung over captain and a VERY angry first mate. Oooooh, I wouldn't wanna be on that boat either!!

 

[Paul M]

In 2004, the Caribbean 1500 organizations sponsored a "Bermuda Rally" going from Hampton, VA to Bermuda and return. There were about 20 sailboats and 5 trawlers that attempted the trip. Of the 5 trawlers, one was a power-cat, one had stabilizers, one had a "steadying sail" and 2 had nothing. They were just regular trawlers with no form of stabilization. 3 trawlers completed the trip. The 2 trawlers without stabilization only made it barely into the Gulf stream and the rolling was so violent that they both had to turn back. I spoke to the owner of the trawler with the steadying sail in Bermuda and he indicated the roll was dampened sufficiently that it was not bad at all crossing the Gulf stream. What is "not bad" may be open to individual interpretation, but it was clear to me that the sail worked. BTW I was on a 34' sailboat and the crossing for us was mostly uneventful.

 

[Giggitoni]

Our boat is equipped from the factory to fly a steady sail. We don't have one on board. Our boat with a full complement of water (300 gallons) and fuel (600 gallons) and all of our "stuff" weighs about 41,000 pounds. I have no experience sailing, except for a little sailing sabot in my youth, or with a steady sail.

However, I'll bet dollars to donuts that we wouldn't see the slightest benefit in propulsion or rolling if we flew a dinky 80 square feet of fabric from our mast and boom! Heck, we've got four times that in raised hull, house, and flying bridge above the water line.

Where we would expect to see the benefit of a stay sail is at anchor in a wind (and probably the same direction as the predominant wave pattern). Like an arrow with feathers, I would hope to be held bow into the wind and waves.

Our assumption is supported by the folks we know with similar boats who have gone before us! So, we'll save the cost of a sail and put it to better use, like beer.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ray,
With the weight of 600gal of fuel, 300gal of water and two engines weighing about 5000lbs each along w your rather wide beam Mahalo Moi should be ... well quite steady.
I agree w your acessment and will add that not many steadying sails are very effective unless abeam to the wind. And then changing course would probably deliver better results for a level ride that the sail.

 

[psneeld]

Usually that's when steadying sails are the most useful...when the wind (and therefore probably the seas) is on the beam. The stronger the wind, the larger the seas, but also the more effective even a smaller sail is.


Yes...many trawler masts are not set up well for steadying sails..but that doesn't mean steadying sails aren't very effective when sized and used correctly.


The problem is...it seems most just don't understand the whole concept from need to execution.


Changing course isn't always an option.

 

[Nomad Willy]

"most just don't understand"

Hmmmmm then some do? I could guess that's you but that's probably what you meant. You have the floor.

 

[Giggitoni]

My story is in post 34 and I'm stickin' to it! Besides, if it's a, "stronger wind and larger seas", I'll most likely be at rest in a slip somewhere enjoying the beer that I save by not buying a stay sail. LOL!

 

[psneeld]

"most just don't understand"

Hmmmmm then some do? I could guess that's you but that's probably what you meant. You have the floor.

Yep, and you are not one.

As statdd, a little like ballast can go as long ways at the right time if in the right place.

Just sime stuff if you study it.

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

Hello psneeld,

I refer to your kind request, I do not have the measurement at this time. I will go on the boat on the 24th of april and will take measurements and photographs.

My steading sail was initially «*an experiment*»created with an old genoa from a Morgan 38 that was given to me by a friend. That experiment was to reduce the rolling only. Not for anchoring nor for getting home either.

I hand cut the sail in order to reuse the head, the tack and the clew, hand sown it and used aluminium pop rivets with washers to reinforce the stitches.

First, I measured the distance with the existing halyard on my mast by attaching a rope and I measured the distance of the luff (leading edge) from on foot from the top of the mast pulley to the since I did not have a gooseneck I made a cunningham rigged on the luff of the mainsail to help control the sail shape.

Then I measured the distance for the foot of the sail from the tack to the clew which is the length of the boom. I ensured that the clew was attached with an outhaul.

I had to cut the sail in order to have the leach be straight (not curved) and I correctly tensioned, the leech of the steadying sail by adjusting the boom height as the leach may "flutter" noisily as this sail did not have a leech line for the purpose of tightening the leech to prevent this fluttering.

I must mention that this experiment was necessary to reduce the rolling when I crossed Lake Champlain from New-York side (Willsboro Bay) to Vermont side (Burlington) ( Shelburne Bay) when having North or South winds.

I must adjust my course like a sailboat in order to either have a close reaching, beam reaching or broad reaching and I can attest that it is more pleasant for the admiral and crew taking this tack... Who said trawlers could not tack?

It does make a difference while cruising as the rolling is controled and I do get an extra statute mile per hour when I am reaching and running from the wind.

This being said I do not and will not use it at an anchorage as it is not set up for this purpose as the mast is closer to the pivoting point of the vessel. So far I am quite happy with the results and it looks cool also.

It my opinion that all vessels are differents and it is my observation, psneeld, the your rig would not provide rolling prevention at the same time it could help as a stay sail at anchor.

The best way to get a result is make the experiments.

I hope this helps understanding.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=498442256849668&l=4739385079728058467

 

[AusCan]

My gaff rigged main sail is 200 square feet and the club footed self-tacking jib is another 100 square feet.
For a 13,000 pound motorsailer, the 300 square feet I have works well. (46 square feet/ton)

It is very effective for roll reduction with 10 knots of wind or more, at any angle except +/- 15 degrees on the nose.

For propulsion, it is effective at the same angles, giving me 2-3 knots of speed (or reducing my engine rpm significantly) in 10-15 knots of wind.

In 20 knots of wind, I can shut down the engine and sail at about 5 knots, or cruise at 7 knots with reduced rpm.


For roll reduction only, I'd say a steady sail would need to be at least 30 square feet per ton to be effective.

Retrofitting a mast, standing & running rigging and sails for the average trawler wouldn't be cheap. For most, it wouldn't make financial sense. The exception may be boats that have factory sailing versions available. (Gulfstar, Willard etc) It may make sense if the a full compliment of mast, boom, rigging, sails, can be purchaed cheap from old boat.

 

[Phil Fill]

The size of a sail is based on the height of the mast and length of the boom. There for our sail is 15 x 12 and its pulled tight and the boom is tied down so it does not swing, as its mostly used at anchor like a weather vane.

 

[psneeld]

My gaff rigged main sail is 200 square feet and the club footed self-tacking jib is another 100 square feet.
For a 13,000 pound motorsailer, the 300 square feet I have works well. (46 square feet/ton)

It is very effective for roll reduction with 10 knots of wind or more, at any angle except +/- 15 degrees on the nose.

For propulsion, it is effective at the same angles, giving me 2-3 knots of speed (or reducing my engine rpm significantly) in 10-15 knots of wind.

In 20 knots of wind, I can shut down the engine and sail at about 5 knots, or cruise at 7 knots with reduced rpm.


For roll reduction only, I'd say a steady sail would need to be at least 30 square feet per ton to be effective.

Retrofitting a mast, standing & running rigging and sails for the average trawler wouldn't be cheap. For most, it wouldn't make financial sense. The exception may be boats that have factory sailing versions available. (Gulfstar, Willard etc) It may make sense if the a full compliment of mast, boom, rigging, sails, can be purchaed cheap from old boat.

Thank you for the inout...I am pretty sure you posted it before.

While 30 Sq ft per ton would certainly be very effective, it is out of the question for most production trawlers with existing masts and booms.

I am looking at maybe 60 Sq ft for my 10 ton trawler. Just wondering drink what others with similar sized sails see fo performance in 15 to 20 knot winds. Anything more is too rough and less is bearable without he sail.

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

Dimensions of Staysail

Anyone using one care to give the dimensions please?

Hello Psneeld!

Here are the dimensions of my staysail. I am making a bigger one for light winds as I had an old genoa available.

Kindest regards, Normand

 

[psneeld]

Thank you!

 

[REAL MOUNTIE]

Cutting parts for seconde Staysail

I use the old staysail as a rough pattern in order to sow the pieces together. I use aluminium pop rivets where strenght is needed. Here are some pictures of the cut out from a genosa.

 

[123]

Thank you KOliver and Ed,

I did want to throw it out there and the results seem predictable. In other words, if it was such a great idea everyone would be doing it and Paul Scott would not have to ask for the dimensions.

Also, a great point about the engine and mast. Both are doing well, why f.. them up. The mast and it's current 6 stays have done well in controlling the forces of the paravanes. The mast and salon roof show no signs of any stress.

So why add another force that could add some slight speed, at the expense of great risks and downsides.

As propulsion a Skysail (kind of kite) works, can save as much as 50% on fuel costs.

SkySails GmbHÂ*-Â*Home

http://newgentransp.e-monsite.com/pages/aeronautique-nautique/des-voiles-aux-bateaux.html

 

[FF]

For anyone contemplating a modern motor sailor , a 90/90 here are some thoughts from ours,

As the diameter of the prop can be generous because of the keel depth, a 2 blade prop can be selected , if the boat is not too large.

This allows more efficient motoring but more important the prop can be locked behind the keel, giving far less drag when sailing. The drag from the surface area of the prop has to be paid for but there is no form drag , if one gets the locked right the prop has no desire to spin.

Second concept is the use of a fully battened mainsail.
Much inland cruising is done under power, the fact that the boat can be run directly into the wind with no sail flapping or extra wear is a delight.

The mainsail can help much of the time , and be ignored when needed.

A large jib in a triangular sail bag that fits over the fore stay allows most of the sail plan to be used when in larger open areas . A self tailing halyard winch makes hoisting a quick pull and a couple of cranks.

Works for US.