steaming with one engine on a twin powered trawler/cruiser

[FF]

the claim of pulling screws for the transit

Can easily be observed IF you regularly read National Fisherman.

 

[RickB]

the claim of pulling screws for the transit

Can easily be observed IF you regularly read National Fisherman.

How about a cite or three to show that.

Considering that a twin engine boat is a rarity in the Alaska fishery and the number of those with owners in California who hold permits is even smaller, the numbers don't support such a claim.

The logistics of such a stunt, not to mention the wisdom of intentionally disabling half the propulsion at the start of a 1500 mile voyage leaves a bit of a credibility gap don't you think?

The makeup of the Alaska commercial fishing fleet makes that stunt even more unlikely ... not to say there are not one or two people floating around who think doing that makes sense but "many" is a ridiculous claim. Have a look at the type of boats that fish in Alaska and let us know how many have twin engines for a start, then look at the number of permits held by Californians and I am pretty confident that the term "many" could not possibly include more than about 3 and I seriously doubt any of them are stupid enough to disable half their propulsion because they think it might save a couple of hundred bucks in fuel.

Perhaps one or two of our Alaska members will chime in and describe the makeup of the Alaska fishing fleet they see every day.

Others might get some idea by looking at the boats here as they are representative of the fleet.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

I have learned a bunch over the past few weeks about my future in boating. For that I want to thank you guys for your "enlightenment"

Learned;

1. I need to re-power or sell my diesel powered boat due to the high cost of filters and upkeep as I will not be able to affore the diesel and it's not better then gas anyway and gas is cheaper to run, fix, maintain and it even cooks the dinner for me. I heard steam was the way to go perhaps if made with splitting atoms it could get above 10% efficiency, damn that external combustion.

2. I need to get a twin as all trawlers now have twin gas engines that are then run one at a time to save cost (perhaps to buy pay off the previous filter debt).

3. you don't really need shaft cooling unless running above 12knots regardless as to the shaft rpm to get there, cool that's makes things simple and now I will always have a dry bilge whodathunk?

4. Thrusters are for wimps, real men run one of those twins unless docking then start up the.... what do you call it the back up or docking engine? but really think thrusters are cheating.

5. Exposed props and shafts are protected by em-blazing things on your mind soooo now I'm off to the store to get one of them em-blazing things, I have a lot of em-blazing to do as I have only average luck.

6. adding cool pictures of boats and stuff is not really adding anything to the chatter on a..... wait for it..... boat forum.

7. Modern diesel engines have been surpassed by modern gas engines and due to the EPA diesels are ruined so we should be seeing less and less of then in autos and over the road trucks as gas they will all be replaced by gas small blocks.

8. No critters were harmed in the making of this post but a tongue was firmly pushed through a cheek with only a slight loss of blood, that is in no way effected by ETOH added to gas and if you only use it fast enough it is great stuff and will in no way hurt your fuel system. Just fill up every other day and life will be great.

 

[FF]

Tounge in cheek or not a spark engine that will use kerosene , that does not have the diesel weight or noise is on the way.


Yes they did dual fuels way way back , but this will be with modern efficiency.

First for small aircraft , then perhaps for cars .

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Tounge in cheek or not a spark engine that will use kerosene , that does not have the diesel weight or noise is on the way.


Yes they did dual fuels way way back , but this will be with modern efficiency.

First for small aircraft , then perhaps for cars .

To late, diesel is already lighter and quieter has the high compression efficiency

and is here now.... oh and already flying and using JP-4/5 they will replace spark ignition in the next 20 years and aviation fuel will be a thing of the past.


With more bio-fuel and the reduction in refining needs for compression engines I believe the peak of spark engins is already uppon us and will decline as advances in compression ignition advances.

Spark ignition has peaked and is already in decline.

 

[timjet]

Thank you guys for all the replies, so i guess ending with one engine due to other one breaking down is not that much of a trouble.

True of most boats. My semi-planning hull boat with big engines and 2 very small rudders handles just fine on one engine and I have cruised extensively on one engine to save fuel. The autopilot has no trouble keeping course on one engine.
However I would not purposely dock my boat on one engine for two reasons. I have no practice doing this and I have tow boatUS insurance.

 

[RickB]

the reduction in refining needs for compression engines ...

What does that mean?

Spark ignition has peaked and is already in decline.

Some reading of the literature on natural gas fueled engines might be in order.

 

[Art]

I have learned a bunch over the past few weeks about my future in boating. For that I want to thank you guys for your "enlightenment"

Learned;

1. I need to re-power or sell my diesel powered boat due to the high cost of filters and upkeep as I will not be able to affore the diesel and it's not better then gas anyway and gas is cheaper to run, fix, maintain and it even cooks the dinner for me. I heard steam was the way to go perhaps if made with splitting atoms it could get above 10% efficiency, damn that external combustion.

2. I need to get a twin as all trawlers now have twin gas engines that are then run one at a time to save cost (perhaps to buy pay off the previous filter debt).

3. you don't really need shaft cooling unless running above 12knots regardless as to the shaft rpm to get there, cool that's makes things simple and now I will always have a dry bilge whodathunk?

4. Thrusters are for wimps, real men run one of those twins unless docking then start up the.... what do you call it the back up or docking engine? but really think thrusters are cheating.

5. Exposed props and shafts are protected by em-blazing things on your mind soooo now I'm off to the store to get one of them em-blazing things, I have a lot of em-blazing to do as I have only average luck.

6. adding cool pictures of boats and stuff is not really adding anything to the chatter on a..... wait for it..... boat forum.

7. Modern diesel engines have been surpassed by modern gas engines and due to the EPA diesels are ruined so we should be seeing less and less of then in autos and over the road trucks as gas they will all be replaced by gas small blocks.

8. No critters were harmed in the making of this post but a tongue was firmly pushed through a cheek with only a slight loss of blood, that is in no way effected by ETOH added to gas and if you only use it fast enough it is great stuff and will in no way hurt your fuel system. Just fill up every other day and life will be great.

Another "Quick Learner"! - LOL x 10

PS: Happy 2014 New Year - VERY SOON!

 

[Tangler]

it has happened to me several times with a recurring failure that took several years to find...no big deal...more labor to steer but manageable...very frustrating tho...

 

[Tangler]

and as long as this has turned into a single/double debate...this is my 1st twin boat and i love the maneuverability of such a large boat...it was a priority for me when i went looking for a large boat and I dont regret it. One engine by choice when trolling but to save fuel..? not if I want even wear and descent cruising speed of 8kn.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

What does that mean?



Some reading of the literature on natural gas fueled engines might be in order.

Sir respectfully but what is a natural fueled engine? Is this opposed to an UN-natural fueled engine?

Lets just compare two types of engine for a min. lets take a diesel and a gas engine making...oh say 350 HP. Now go buy the latest and greatest you can that will fit in say a 40 foot boat in a twin configuration,nothing fancy just go to any boat show.

I'll wait....


Ok cool... now look at what you have, of the two engines which has the most new technology in them. Which seems fairly unchanged over say the last 10-20 years? What engine is being refined seemingly every year to give greater power and better economy? What direction is Europe taking?

The gas engine is fine but due to the way it operates it is very limited in the way of further advancement (see stoichiometric mixture) and unless greater advancements in ceramics progresses they are really at the lean ratio limit and the compression limit given today's fuels and reduction in anti-knock additives. We really are at the peak in spark ignition engines for ground transportation, heck that's ok we were there in aviation in the late 50's when all the HP that could be wrung out of an engine reliably (or not) was reached.

Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major

The point is simple, the money and research are going away from spark ignition and on to higher compression to use less refined fuel as well as Bio-fuel engines with better output and less emissions, these are the facts.

Diesel now outsells gas in EU and the trend is sharpley curving upward.

Vehicle Technologies Office: Fact #716: February 27, 2012 Diesels are more than Half of New Cars Sold in Western Europe

Just look at what the last 40 years has done for diesels as opposed to gas engines.

Since 2006, every car to win the famous endurance race — the Audi R10 TDI, Peugeot 908 HDi FAP, Audi R15 TDI plus, Audi R18 TDI, and Audi R18 e-tron quattro — burned diesel on the way to first place.

Diesel does get more fuel economy than gasoline, and not by a slim margin. Diesel is more than 33% more efficient than gasoline is when it comes to your fuel mileage. This means if you were to get for example, 30 miles to the gallon, a diesel equivalent engine would get 40 miles per gallon. Diesel needs to be run through a diesel engine, and diesel engines offer more torque than a gasoline engine. Torque allows for great acceleration, which also accounts for the great fuel economy numbers.



Will there be further advancement, sure the Ford EcoBoost is an example guess what they did, direct injection (DI) to allow higher compression (10.5:1) with peek boost pressure of 11.6 psi the spray of gas helps cool the cylinder and reduce the effects of the extra boost. BTW this is what a DI diesel has been doing for years including the after-cooled turbo charging of the intake charge.

I am intrigued by Homogenous charged compression ignition ( HCCI) Look it up.

I would also like to see the octane in ETOH utilized more, a great deal of power can be found with high compression and high turbo boost as found in Indy cars. Ford is looking at a duel fuel experiment using 22+ PSI of boost and injecting E85 during high boost periods from a separate tank but reliability seems to be a problem right now.

Variable valve timing has been around and for the most part matured.

Start stop systems, 6+ speed transmissions, variable displacement engines (4-6-8) has been done and helps a small bit at the expense of complexity. However these can also be applied to any diesel engine so not any real gas advantage.


Yes it seems a bit of reading IS in order.

G-day

 

[FF]

not by a slim margin. Diesel is more than 33% more efficient than gasoline is when it comes to your fuel mileage.

Fuel burn is energy , and diesel simply weighs more than gasoline which may account for much of the difference.

Cents per btu might be an interesting metric , which I think Nat Gas will win , as its not taxed to death ,,,YET!

 

[RickB]

Sir respectfully but what is a natural fueled engine? Is this opposed to an UN-natural fueled engine?

Respectfully (and in this case it is difficult - but it is a New Year), if you have to ask, there is little point in my wasting time in what would obviously be a futile attempt at teaching you the fundamentals of power production by CI or SI engines which may use gaseous fuels or a combination of liquid and gaseous.

For readers who may be interested:

Caterpillar: Innovation › Natural Gas › Natural Gas 101

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Sorry for your grumpiness, perhaps the new year will be a good one for you.

The correct term is Compressed Nature Gas not natural fueled, I am very familiar.

CNG has 64% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline.

Diesel has 113% the energy of gasoline, per gallon.

CNG while an interesting fuel will not be in widespread use as a motor fuel in your lifetime and most likely not in mine. I'm 49 and suspect you are older.

It will never be a boat fuel, as a heaver then air compressed gas the dangers in its use will prohibit it.

(except in limited use as a outboard fuel granted, but that's not what we are talking about)

The energy content is also a limiting factor, for fixed station use (power plants) it is a fine fuel, makes for a nice BBQ as well.

Good discussion, thanks for your maturity

Regards,

 

[RickB]

The correct term is Compressed Nature Gas not natural fueled, I am very familiar.

You are the one who said "natural fueled" so must not be all that familiar. "Nature Gas"???

CNG while an interesting fuel will not be in widespread use as a motor fuel in your lifetime and most likely not in mine.

CNG is compressed natural gas, it is still natural gas, the C just describes the method of storage. CNG, LNG, it the same stuff and it IS used today as a fuel source for many vehicles of all sorts, there are more than 15 million natural gas fueled road vehicles in service worldwide today.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-11-13/story/csx-and-ge-use-natural-gas-fuel-locomotives

It will never be a boat fuel, as a heaver then air compressed gas the dangers in its use will prohibit it.

Wow ... Google "natural gas fueled ships" and select images. LNG tankers have used boil-off gas for fuel since the beginning of the trade. They are among the safest ships on the ocean. There is a rapidly growing number of natural gas fueled ferries, tugboats, and other commercial vessels.

LNG Fueled Vessels


Norway has at least 8 natural gas fueled ferries in operation now and more on the order books. Washington State Ferries has design approval now for natural gas conversions on part of their fleet.

The USCG has a group working on licensing and training standards for crews operating natural gas fueled vessels.

You lived longer than you thought. Now use the time you have left to learn about the things you think you know enough about to post long winded fairy tales.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

You are the one who said "natural fueled" so must not be all that familiar. "Nature Gas"???




CNG is compressed natural gas, it is still natural gas, the C just describes the method of storage. CNG, LNG, it the same stuff and it IS used today as a fuel source for many vehicles of all sorts, there are more than 15 million natural gas fueled road vehicles in service worldwide today.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-11-13/story/csx-and-ge-use-natural-gas-fuel-locomotives



Wow ... Google "natural gas fueled ships" and select images. LNG tankers have used boil-off gas for fuel since the beginning of the trade. They are among the safest ships on the ocean. There is a rapidly growing number of natural gas fueled ferries, tugboats, and other commercial vessels.

LNG Fueled Vessels


Norway has at least 8 natural gas fueled ferries in operation now and more on the order books. Washington State Ferries has design approval now for natural gas conversions on part of their fleet.

The USCG has a group working on licensing and training standards for crews operating natural gas fueled vessels.

You lived longer than you thought. Now use the time you have left to learn about the things you think you know enough about to post long winded fairy tales.

Now you are acting like an obtuse old codger, you know I/we are talking about plesure boats and not ships and commercial ferries, wow must be a hoot having a dinner discussion with you.

I think I have proven that I do have a "working" knowledge of what I speak and you have proven true insight to your nature and need to be the site guru and a legend in you own mind.

I hope you well in life....now you may have the last word as I am done with further discussion with you, oh great one.

 

[Art]

For TM members who know of what I speak:This thread's action has turned into shades of "Marin". Marin, you lurking around in here? LOL :lol:

I suggest we all stay civil!!

Art

 

[RickB]

Now you are acting like an obtuse old codger, you know I/we are talking about plesure boats and not ships and commercial ferries, wow must be a hoot having a dinner discussion with you.

OK, if ship and ferry propulsion scares you off, how about the CNG fueled Perkins Sabre 6 cylinder marine engines used on the canal boats in Amsterdam? That same engine will fit nicely in practically any of the boats owned by members of this forum.

If that isn't good enough to convince you that your absurd statements are so far from reality ... how many of those 15+ million natural gas fueled road vehicles do you think use engines that won't fit in your boat?

Codger, no, just a guy who doesn't mind pointing out BS when someone is foolish enough to keep defending it or tries to discredit me with ad hominem (and false) statements. I don't need to attack you, your published statements do a better job of showing the level of your subject matter knowledge than I could ever do.