Style-break boats, Duh?

[healhustler]

How is it that some boats end up having parts that, however well constructed or intended, break style lines, look mis-matched, or even oppose the very character of the boat.

I give my Manatee as a example. The hull is nothing less than a round, rotund lady with nary a spot to lay a straight edge anywhere, and yet the pilothouse is slab-sided, square cornered and even sports mitered windows instead of the radius-cornered windows of the house. Although there were only six built like mine, the other 93 boats still had the same theme (round bottom, square top). There was money to be saved... for sure, there were practical considerations to be made...yes, but when recently quoting some new windows for my pilothouse, I learned that I could save some money by going with some more standard radius-type windows of slightly reduced size (still huge) without compromising any visibility from the helm or settee. Additionally, using sheet aluminum to frame the smaller windows out to the original aluminum framing will strengthen the area without saving weight. I'm not a Naval Architect and I can hardly second guess the least of them, but sometimes when I see such style breaks on even high quality boats, I can only say: Duh?

 

[hollywood8118]

How is it that some boats end up having parts that, however well constructed or intended, break style lines, look mis-matched, or even oppose the very character of the boat.

I give my Manatee as a example. The hull is nothing less than a round, rotund lady with nary a spot to lay a straight edge anywhere, and yet the pilothouse is slab-sided, square cornered and even sports mitered windows instead of the radius-cornered windows of the house. Although there were only six built like mine, the other 93 boats still had the same theme (round bottom, square top). There was money to be saved... for sure, there were practical considerations to be made...yes, but when recently quoting some new windows for my pilothouse, I learned that I could save some money by going with some more standard radius-type windows of slightly reduced size (still huge) without compromising any visibility from the helm or settee. Additionally, using sheet aluminum to frame the smaller windows out to the original aluminum framing will strengthen the area without saving weight. I'm not a Naval Architect and I can hardly second guess the least of them, but sometimes when I see such style breaks on even high quality boats, I can only say: Duh?

Boy you stepped in it on this one.... You own a Manatee and you are questioning style!!
I am sure that the Manatee is a really functional boat but style isn't its strong suit.... after all it is named after a beast that makes a Hippo look pretty!. Fear not ... at least the Manatee looks much better than a Diesel Duck. I do see a trend though on boats named after animals.....
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Northern Spy]

Could've been the prevailing manufacturing technology in the place/time. Honestly, I don't think the ports are really the issue. In fact I'm not sure how you'd tie that all together. It is the little port hole up forward that always looked odd to me.

As much as I make fun of manatees, really they offer a lot of space in a reasonable size package. If I were thinking of living aboard they would make the short list. Reasonably seaworthy, pedigree construction, nice interiors, space for a ping pong table on the lido deck. They really have a lot going for them.

I just feel it would be dangerous for me to walk the docks, given the cold water up here, with the requisite bag on my head.


PS: If there is such a thing as Karma, I will likely own a manatee before I die.

 

[healhustler]

Boy you stepped in it on this one.... You own a Manatee and you are questioning style!!

Yes, no doubt the Manatee is a unique provocateer of Duh reactions. Exactly why I used it as the example. What else on the waterways has brought such a reaction. One of my favorite boats is Maverick, but the fly-bridge I could do without.

 

[markpierce]

... Fear not ... at least the Manatee looks much better than a Diesel Duck.......

Regardless, DDs look like they have a mission!

 

[Animal]

Fear not ... at least the Manatee looks much better than a Diesel Duck.
HOLLYWOOD

????? Really?!?! Granted I'm just a dock walker, but I love the Ducks in both form and function. I agree the manatee has some challenges in the form department, but for most folks that is offset by the function provided by the layout and living area. Curious what your negatives are about the DDs....

 

[hollywood8118]

????? Really?!?! Granted I'm just a dock walker, but I love the Ducks in both form and function. I agree the manatee has some challenges in the form department, but for most folks that is offset by the function provided by the layout and living area. Curious what your negatives are about the DDs....

Well, if you want to just have a great boat to do passages a duck might not be bad.. I am currently sitting in Costa Rica Delivering a N57 to Panama. This is the view from the settee in the salon. Visibility from the boat at anchor is so important. So much of the use of a boat that is a passage maker is sitting at anchor or at the dock. The Duck is like a cave everywhere except the smallish pilothouse. Even the aft deck while wide open requires one to use a lawn chair for someplace to sit.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[hollywood8118]

Yes, no doubt the Manatee is a unique provocateer of Duh reactions. Exactly why I used it as the example. What else on the waterways has brought such a reaction. One of my favorite boats is Maverick, but the fly-bridge I could do without.

yep your right.. that is a Ugly boat!

Hollywood

 

[Animal]

I am currently sitting in Costa Rica Delivering a N57 to Panama. .... Visibility from the boat at anchor is so important.
HOLLYWOOD

I guess if your baseline is a N57 (sitting at anchor in CR no less) I can much better understand the comment now!

Understand the visibility comments from a function perspective, but I'd still say the DD are a good looking boat - if form can be separated from function for the purposes of online debate.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The DD is not a good looking boat but that "Maverick" is bad.

Marks Coot suffers (style and beauty wise) from being made from slabs of flat steel plate but most steel boats suffer more. And a high percentage ... a lot more. The Coot has a nice looking hull irregardless of material and the overall look of the cabin is quite pleasing even if a bit stogy.

The bridge on the Manatee does look a bit like an aircraft control tower and dosn't fit w the rest of the boat but given the dimensions and proportions of the boat I think Krogen did quite well w the style and beauty. A unique boat w special abilities usually looks a bit different or even odd but the advantages gained from their uniqueness usually pays back better than 1-1. And that statement applies FULLY to both the Manatee and the Coot.

And they are both better looking boats than most Norhavn's. I just saw a Sea Trial article in Sea magazine for a new 42 Selene "Eurodeck" LRC. I'd venture to say the DD and especially Mark's Coot is a better looking boat that the Selene. Most Selen's I've seen before are fairly good looking boats though.

Animal ... can't you see that the DD looks a bit like a Junk?

 

[Northern Spy]

Yes, no doubt the Manatee is a unique provocateer of Duh reactions. Exactly why I used it as the example. What else on the waterways has brought such a reaction. One of my favorite boats is Maverick, but the fly-bridge I could do without.

The Manatee is a much, much better looking boat than Maverick. Almost everything is wrong on this boat. Proportion, sheer, different angles to everything, bow vs. stern height.

 

[Phil Fill]

If I think the Eagle is ugly, what more do I need to say? I mean it in a nice way! However ugly can sort of grow on you. You just have to look past the ugly points. Actually, we bought the Eagle for the interior lay out and room. Once in side it’s not so bad as least we do not have to look at the ugly out side.

One of the first thing I was going to do is take off the wantabe forward slanting arch or at least turn it around. But after 17 years it still there. The stern is butt ugly, but it has a big protect stern deck. 8 ft by 13 ft. The hull is basically straight up and down, and so is the superstructure. The only salvation is the teak trim that breaks up it up. Otherwise it would be a up/down plain UGLIER boat.

Anyway we spent most of the time/funds on the interior glamed, solftened and warmed up as the interior was worse than the exterior stark, shippy and cold.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Phil,
I don't think it's ugly. The slab sides in the drawing sure are though. But the boat is'nt that slab sided is it?

 

[Phil Fill]

Pretty much! When I first saw the boat the teak was silver and the white was grey, so it look straight up and down and square. If the teak was painted white there would be no visible break. It’s the teak trim that gives it the some what pleasant look. There are many ways to fool the eye! Its like painting a picture on a flat white canvas by adding color, definition and texture.

So the first time I saw it, it really looked commercial stark and ugly, but it had good sound basic foundation to glam/pimp out. Took 3+ years to sand and refinish the teak trim and decks. I think my wife bought the Eagle to keep me busy and out of her hair. “That should keep him busy for at least a couple of years?”

OK, so now it's not that ugly, but sort of!

 

[Tad Roberts]

When I first saw the drawings for the Roughwater 58, I thought.....That's really odd.....Especially for Ed Monk, a designer I have great respect for. Then I eventually learned that the boat is based on a disused Fishboat mold found in a Taiwan field. Monk only bobbed the stern and drew a house and arrangement, which (IMO) he did a decent job of.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Well if the sheer wasn't broken and if the bow was pointy and the sides of the boat had a nice curve it would be quite good looking. Harder to lay against a float but better looking and perhaps better reserve buoyancy too.

The Eagle has a nice almost "shipy" look about her out of the water (thank you TAD) w her hard turn of the bilge amidships. It gives her a diamond shape that I think is very efficient at slow speeds. High performance canoes and sailboats emulate that diamond shape for low drag re wave making resistance .. I think.

 

[healhustler]

Pretty much! When I first saw the boat the teak was silver and the white was grey, so it look straight up and down and square. If the teak was painted white there would be no visible break. It’s the teak trim that gives it the some what pleasant look. There are many ways to fool the eye! Its like painting a picture on a flat white canvas by adding color, definition and texture.

Phil.....and here all this time I thought we shared some tub-like preciousness in our vessels. I have to say that the teak lines do the job in masking any of the slab-sided character you speak about. Of course, the plus side of that is the ease of using fenders at the dock or while locking. If such a boat appeared over here on this side, I'd probably want to take a look at it. It seems like my kind of boat.

I've been working with my own slab-sided pilothouse, and you may have noticed the knee-high canvas below the life-lines on the boat deck. That helped, but the square cornered windows will be going next. Matching the radius windows of the house, here's what the change would look like.

 

[markpierce]

It's obvious/expected people weigh function compared to appearance differently. From previous posts it should be obvious that "eye appeal" was not a primary factor in selecting my boat. I did, however, wanted it to look like a boat (versus a shoe, whatever).

 

[Codger2]

From previous posts it should be obvious that "eye appeal" was not a primary factor in selecting my boat.

Well, you failed then as I think it's a terrific looking boat!

 

[healhustler]

I dunno, Mark....at least for me, the look of a functional boat....you know, with lots of meaningful rigging and equipment and such, goes a long way with me. I like the looks of the Coot period, but with the mast and sail capability, the forward rake, heavy duty rails, sea glass and doors....it's real meat! Like the DD's, it's a man's boat.

 

[hollywood8118]

I guess if your baseline is a N57 (sitting at anchor in CR no less) I can much better understand the comment now!

Understand the visibility comments from a function perspective, but I'd still say the DD are a good looking boat - if form can be separated from function for the purposes of online debate.

Actually the idea of having to live in a D.D. is way too much like a lot of sailboats.. just a bit too cave like. Lots of boats have great visibility from the inside out while still maintaining decent window protection. Yes the N57 is a great boat .. but out of reach for most of us ( me included ). It rains
( dumps 1/2" - 3/4" ) every afternoon here for at least three hours and I expect it to get worse in Panama, Life in a duck would be less than great.. unless you huddle under a boom tarp on the back deck.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[expat]

I think the Coot is a good looking boat.Have to agree the Manatee is not the prettiest but there are many that are worse.I would rather own an ugly boat than no boat .

 

[Nomad Willy]

hustler,

The only thing I'd want to change on the Manatee visually is that round port window fwd on the side.

Here is a boat that many in Puget Sound will remember. And for those that don't remember it served as a ferry from the Everett Harbor to Jetty Island just across the river. Somebody bought her and has been using the old Holiday as a livaboard.

 

[Phil Fill]

hustler,

The only thing I'd want to change on the Manatee visually is that round port window fwd on the side.

Here is a boat that many in Puget Sound will remember. And for those that don't remember it served as a ferry from the Everett Harbor to Jetty Island just across the river. Somebody bought her and has been using the old Holiday as a livaboard.

That is heart braking. A little bigger steel boat replaced her tjat has similar desin/looks.

 

[healhustler]

hustler,

The only thing I'd want to change on the Manatee visually is that round port window fwd on the side.

LOL. I have to take extra care in addressing this since the window hadn't even entered my mind as an item contributing to the style blocks in the boat. Still, if you were to change it, what would you do? Since both these windows are in closets, I have no allegiance to them.

Your ferry example above one for the style block encyclopedia.

 

[Animal]

Actually the idea of having to live in a D.D. is way too much like a lot of sailboats.. just a bit too cave like. Lots of boats have great visibility from the inside out while still maintaining decent window protection. Yes the N57 is a great boat .. but out of reach for most of us ( me included ). It rains
( dumps 1/2" - 3/4" ) every afternoon here for at least three hours and I expect it to get worse in Panama, Life in a duck would be less than great.. unless you huddle under a boom tarp on the back deck.
HOLLYWOOD

Very good point, and I understand completely - the idea of a vista from the galley and settee (or a well covered aft deck) seems pretty nice. I would imagine that's why Seahorse had Buehler draw up a sedan version of the DD!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Round ports on a boat w few or no others the same or similar makes it look odd, not right, disconnected. Can't think of a word that is really right even though this is probably all in my head and not true. Chris Craft did it about 1960. Owens did it earlier and later.

It's probably not much of an issue or no issue at all but I'd say if your fwd port window was shaped like the other windows the boat would look better.

 

[markpierce]

The low-profile, non-sedan DD would seem to be a much more seaworthy vessel: smaller, stronger windows, lower center of gravity.

 

[eagle419]

for the tri-curious

One of the Sea Shepherd boats taking a break in Hobart before heading south to annoy the Japanese whalers[
ATTACH][/ATTACH]

 

[FF]

"Actually the idea of having to live in a D.D. is way too much like a lot of sailboats.."

Unless very large most ocean worthy boats will be closer to sailboats , in living aboard terms , than motor yachts.

The smaller size and less above deck area is easier to get strong enough to resist breaking waves coming aboard.

About 60 ft with a really heavy boat living a story or two above water level becomes possible , but comfort will depend on added stability paravanes or driven fins or both..