Survey Says. Questions?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Both hull/vessel and engine survey should be done concurrently or overlap, you don't want to do two sea trials and haul outs. Some engine surveyors will cut you a financial break if they don't have to write their report, i.e. if you pull the plug during the survey and tell them you need nothing else from them.

Best to do your due diligence before committing to moving ahead with surveys, there is a great deal you can learn about a vessel for sale before the survey, research, pose questions to the broker and then spend a few hours aboard. This article will give you a starting point. Part I https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/

Part II: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-ii/

BTW, there is such a thing as an unsuccessful survey, it's the one that fails to identify significant and/or costly issues...
 
I paid for three surveys before I found the right boat for me. All were with the hull and engine surveyors working together. It seemed like a good way to go for me. I’ve had this boat now four years and had no surprises, only routine maintenance.
 
I recently made what I hope to be my last boat purchase. The money spent for comprehensive surveyS was worth every penny. Minor maintenance/repair issues were identified ... as I would expect on any used boat. The two surveyors, while independent, were well acquainted with each other and had done joint surveys many times before. I think the synergy was a real bonus ... I paid for two, but felt as though I got the value of three. I am confident that with each of them looking at essentially everything, nothing went undetected. Each wrote their appropriate report, but with several cross references between the two. Perhaps two sets of eyes together may be better than twos sets each alone. Last conclusion ... the cost of any number of surveys pales in comparison to actually owning the boat!
 
Mark Laurnen said:
I recently made what I hope to be my last boat purchase. The money spent for comprehensive surveyS was worth every penny. Minor maintenance/repair issues were identified ... as I would expect on any used boat. The two surveyors, while independent, were well acquainted with each other and had done joint surveys many times before. I think the synergy was a real bonus ... I paid for two, but felt as though I got the value of three. I am confident that with each of them looking at essentially everything, nothing went undetected. Each wrote their appropriate report, but with several cross references between the two. Perhaps two sets of eyes together may be better than twos sets each alone. Last conclusion ... the cost of any number of surveys pales in comparison to actually owning the boat!
Click to expand...

That's the kind of synergy we find in South Florida. The surveyors we use and recommend have all worked together dozens of times.
 
Wow BandB! It was South Florida.
 
My surveyors were also south Florida.
 
Update:

Survery Date was this past Saturday. 4/27 unfortunately we were unable to do the sea trial due high winds (gusts to 50 Mph). Only a partial engine survey was completed. A couple of things caught my attention.

1. Minor oil seepage was indicated on valve cover seals.: recommend replacing seal/gaskets.

2 Minor oil seepage is a possibility from the front crankshaft oil seal; recommend further troubleshooting by removing belt guard and crankshaft pulley.

3. Minor oil seepage is indicated at the governor assembly to the injection pump seal; recommend re-torquing the bolts and monitoring.

Opinions?
 
larman said:
Update:

Survery Date was this past Saturday. 4/27 unfortunately we were unable to do the sea trial due high winds (gusts to 50 Mph). Only a partial engine survey was completed. A couple of things caught my attention.

1. Minor oil seepage was indicated on valve cover seals.: recommend replacing seal/gaskets.

2 Minor oil seepage is a possibility from the front crankshaft oil seal; recommend further troubleshooting by removing belt guard and crankshaft pulley.

3. Minor oil seepage is indicated at the governor assembly to the injection pump seal; recommend re-torquing the bolts and monitoring.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

What were the mechanic's opinions? Steps to repair? Estimated cost?

Oil leaks can happen. If its a simple fix it can be a non-issue. Accessibility, cost, and being sure its a simple fix are the important factors to consider.
 
As he didn't finish the survey because of the sea trial I did not get his final recommendations. I did get a 10 page report on his finding of the visual inspection. Hopefully we can complete the survey this week.
 
larman said:
As he didn't finish the survey because of the sea trial I did not get his final recommendations. I did get a 10 page report on his finding of the visual inspection. Hopefully we can complete the survey this week.
Click to expand...

but sea trial wouldnt have much to do with the oil leaks, right? he should be able to opine and answer your questions if he is a real and experienced mechanic. you should be able to take the information and go get local estimates for the work that needs to be done. all in order to make an informed decision and perhaps decide if you even want to continue to a sea trial.
 
larman said:
Update:

Survery Date was this past Saturday. 4/27 unfortunately we were unable to do the sea trial due high winds (gusts to 50 Mph). Only a partial engine survey was completed. A couple of things caught my attention.

1. Minor oil seepage was indicated on valve cover seals.: recommend replacing seal/gaskets.

2 Minor oil seepage is a possibility from the front crankshaft oil seal; recommend further troubleshooting by removing belt guard and crankshaft pulley.

3. Minor oil seepage is indicated at the governor assembly to the injection pump seal; recommend re-torquing the bolts and monitoring.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

In my opinion there is no such thing as minor oil seepage until the cause is figured out. Do seals and gaskets cure it? Crankshaft clearly requires more investigation. Does re-torquing fix the third problem. At this point, nothing is really known except you need more work done to determine the severity of the problems. It may all be minor but that's just not known yet.
 
Many engines as they age develop leaks. If minor, they can be lived with by diapers and wiping up. Major leaks are another story. The sea trial should determine if they are real leaks or just accumulated oil stains.

If the leaks are minor, maybe get a discount and live with it. Often the repairs are very disruptive depending on what fix is needed.

By all means get the sea trial done when weather allows. It sucks not being able to do all in one go, but that is the nature of the weather. Might have to pay engine guy a bit more for travel/extra time/etc, that depends on what you agreed to.

What engines are these?
 
Cummins
Year Built: 2001
Engine Model: 6BTA5.9-M3

Good news taking Amtrak back there on Thursday 5/2 for sea trial and haul out.

The engine surveyor says when he wiped his finger around valve covers etc he picked up some oil residue on his finger. I think after sea trial we will know more. Thank you all for arming me with info. While process is overwhelming so much to learn including all the systems on the boat.
 
Last edited:
First of all, I totally agree that a good surveyor and engine guy and electrical guy are worth the costs. All can find issues.

However, I could argue that anyone with a bit of boating experience can do their own due diligence prior to survey, and most likely enough to make decisions.

Personally I'd NEVER make and offer before a sea trial, even though the brokers want that. BS, and I've never found a broker that insists on it, and if I did, I'd tell him to pound sand. They are NOT on my side unless I hire them.

I simple tell the owner (or broker) that when I come to see the boat, I will inspect is and show them the list of things I'll look at... nothing evasive, but a complete check. I will insist on a sea trial which I will pay the expenses for. I MUCH prefer the seller to operate the boat, which tells me a LOT of how he operates the boat that I might buy. I don't really need to handle it much, but do want to see it perform to specs.

My goal is to see the boat, line up a surveyor and other mechanics for inspection as necessary and buy the boat in one trip. That doesn't often happen, especially on bigger boats but I've done it a few times. If it's a LONG way to the boat, I'll get a motel and will do the thing in one visit and arrange how I'll bring the boat home. Rarely does this happen because I can get around pretty quickly.

Most often, I'll make my first trip and go thru my inspections and sea trial. Then go home and tell the seller that I'll think about it as a negotiation point. If I make an offer, my attorney, trustee or representative will hold any deposit. The offer will be very detailed, spelling out the obligations of each party. I'll often have a clause that I can bail at any time I feel the boat is not up to snuff for me. I have no objection if the seller just gives me first right of refusal if they get and offer, but if I travel there and hire surveyors, I want them to protect me for the time I'm doing that.

I've rarely had any issues buying boats. All my sellers have been great, and the brokers have been good too. As well as the surveyors.

As for the survey, I tell them that I'll be with them the whole time and expect them to keep me up to date as to what they find, even if they charge a premium for me being there. The learning is worth it. And, I'll ask away.

I LOVE buying things, love to negotiate and dicker. It's very rewarding when a great deal is made.
 
We looked at an older boat (before we found our current one), asked the broker to start the mains. He replied that they would only start them after they had received a written offer. I responded "Not in my lifetime", and walked off the boat.
 
What is the logic behind not starting and engine or giving a sea trial before offer? Makes me think they are hiding something. Does not seem like a smart way to do business.
 
Tough call.
If you know boats you have a pretty good idea before survey if its good
If you have no idea about boats what a surveyor tells you can very easily scare you away from a great deal.
 
Simi 60 said:
Tough call.
If you know boats you have a pretty good idea before survey if its good
If you have no idea about boats what a surveyor tells you can very easily scare you away from a great deal.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I am coming from the outboard world, Twin diesels are a whole new story. I am relying heavily on the recommendations of the surveyors.
 
larman said:
What is the logic behind not starting and engine or giving a sea trial before offer? Makes me think they are hiding something. Does not seem like a smart way to do business.
Click to expand...

Sea trials are a fair amount of work for all involved. If everyone that expressed an interest in a boat got to take it out for a test run, there might be 20 test runs before anyone was serious enough to enter a contract. Test run of a big boat is much more work than a test run of a car.

The contract always should allow you an "out" clause if the boat does not perform well to your standards, or if faults are found on survey. The contract and deposit simply means you are serious about buying the boat and the effort of a test run is not wasted. The "tire kicker" thing. If boat ends up not as advertised, back out of the contract and get your deposit back. If it is as advertised, you buy it. That's the whole point of the exercise, right?

Regarding starting engines, most of the brokers that I work with are intimately familiar with the boats they have listed and they (with owners blessing) have no problems starting up machinery. Heck they often are the ones that move the boats for storm hauls, slip changes, whatever. A buyer's agent that does not know the boat might (and should) be hesitant.
 
larman said:
What is the logic behind not starting and engine or giving a sea trial before offer? Makes me think they are hiding something. Does not seem like a smart way to do business.
Click to expand...

Not uncommon at all. Starting and idling engines to appease a horde of tire kickers creates other issues particularly on diesels.

A properly worded offer covers unforeseen issues that may arise.
 
larman said:
What is the logic behind not starting and engine or giving a sea trial before offer? Makes me think they are hiding something. Does not seem like a smart way to do business.
Click to expand...

I have several hundred dollars into winterization. I'm happy to start it for someone who is seriously interested in buying it, but I don't want to waste that money just for someone who's kicking the tires.

And that actually happened. Last year only one person looked at my boat. If I'd ran it I would have had to re-winterize just for that. I'm glad my broker required an offer first.
 
BDofMSP said:
I have several hundred dollars into winterization. I'm happy to start it for someone who is seriously interested in buying it, but I don't want to waste that money just for someone who's kicking the tires.

And that actually happened. Last year only one person looked at my boat. If I'd ran it I would have had to re-winterize just for that. I'm glad my broker required an offer first.
Click to expand...

That makes 100% sense. Probably not the best time to look at a boat in the winter like I have been doing.
 
Well Seevee, I have read your post with interest and I do understand your position. I have a somewhat different perspective. For many years I have been buying and selling new and used heavy manufacturing equipment. Frequently several millions of dollars. In the used arena as we speak here, I will insist on a deposit before taking a machine off of the market. If my buyer refuses a deposit before seeing a machine which may even be in a different country, he is at risk for me to sell to someone else who does put up the money. Furthermore I always require them to sign a non-circumvention agreement. 95% I get a deposit, so I am inclined to also provide a deposit when I buy a used boat. I don't mind negotiating twice. First I negotiate the sell price based on they way I see the boat and the market. Second I renegotiate the price after the surveys because the surveyors always find something I didn't know about. This reduces the sellers confidence in their own pricing and strengthens my position. Typically it is not wise to let a boat buyer get away. You just don't know when the next one will come along. A couple boats I have offered on and was rejected, languished for sale for years. Often your first offer is the best offer because someone has been looking for it for a while.

On my last boat purchase I called the owner of a large brokerage and asked them who do they not want to see as a buyer's surveyor. So I chose him. Even my broker tried to talk me out of him. "Oh that guy finds every little thing and then your insurance company will tell you to fix them all before they will insure the boat". Great, that is who I want.
 
larman said:
Update:

Survery Date was this past Saturday. 4/27 unfortunately we were unable to do the sea trial due high winds (gusts to 50 Mph). Only a partial engine survey was completed. A couple of things caught my attention.

1. Minor oil seepage was indicated on valve cover seals.: recommend replacing seal/gaskets.

2 Minor oil seepage is a possibility from the front crankshaft oil seal; recommend further troubleshooting by removing belt guard and crankshaft pulley.

3. Minor oil seepage is indicated at the governor assembly to the injection pump seal; recommend re-torquing the bolts and monitoring.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

Engines leak oil, it's a fact of life. However, it's almost impossible to determine how serious they are unless you know the last time the oil was cleaned off of or from under the engine, a totally saturated diaper that hasn't been replaced in 1000 hrs is probably less of a concern than one that is 50 hours old and equally saturated.

Also, multiple oil leaks can be an indication of high crankcase pressure, which in turn is a sign of excessive blow-by or a malfunctioning crankcase ventilation system. This can be checked relatively easily with a manometer, without any major engine disassembly and unlike compression or leak down testing, it does not require injector removal. This and exhaust back pressure testing should be included in most inboard diesel engine surveys.
 
Ski in NC said:
Sea trials are a fair amount of work for all involved. If everyone that expressed an interest in a boat got to take it out for a test run, there might be 20 test runs before anyone was serious enough to enter a contract. Test run of a big boat is much more work than a test run of a car.

The contract always should allow you an "out" clause if the boat does not perform well to your standards, or if faults are found on survey. The contract and deposit simply means you are serious about buying the boat and the effort of a test run is not wasted. The "tire kicker" thing. If boat ends up not as advertised, back out of the contract and get your deposit back. If it is as advertised, you buy it. That's the whole point of the exercise, right?

Regarding starting engines, most of the brokers that I work with are intimately familiar with the boats they have listed and they (with owners blessing) have no problems starting up machinery. Heck they often are the ones that move the boats for storm hauls, slip changes, whatever. A buyer's agent that does not know the boat might (and should) be hesitant.
Click to expand...



Fully agreed, sea trials need to be backed up by some level of commitment on the part of the buyer. Some brokers will do a sea trial for a prospect they believe to be genuine without an offer, but it's the exception.

However, the contract should allow the buyer to back out, and receive a full refund of his deposit, for any reason, he or she should not be bound to articulate why they changed their mind, in other words you don't have to justify opting to not proceed with some specific survey issue (although you clearly should have a reason), you can change your mind and not be bound to proceed or forfeit your deposit. You would of course be responsible for haul out, survey costs etc.

Buyer beware, I have seen purchase contracts that obligate the buyer to proceed with the purchase, and if he or she chooses not to, it goes to binding arbitration (that contract is used by a well-known yacht builder/broker), with a potential forfeiture of deposit. That is by far the exception, but never the less, be sure to read the purchase contract very carefully.
 
Made the trek to Baltimore yesterday for the survey and sea trial. First we took a short ride for the haul out, bottom pressure washed and scraped. Everything underneath was fine except for missing cotter pin and zinc on propeller shaft which they replaced. Haul was fine. When then went for the trial and the boat performed very nicely. I am just waiting on the official reports from engine and boat survey. He did mention a few things needed attention. Battery inverter not working, aft cabin ac fan not working and one house battery NG. Can I negotiate the price down with these issues?
 
I would wait for the reports that you paid for to make that decision. That would be the time for hard negotiation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
New Member with Question Regarding Annual Maintenance Cost
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
Ertyqway
Ertyqway
3rdOrderEffect
Survey finding(s) & renegotiation
Replies
27
Views
2K
Comodave
Comodave
T
Surveyor wording is a little harsh
2
Replies
44
Views
4K
psneeld
psneeld
M
Contract on Camano Troll 31
Replies
5
Views
948
MWhit
M
B
Ford Lehman high rpm’s at idle
Replies
19
Views
2K
Comodave
Comodave

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom