That will buff right out - boat hits ferry

[Portage_Bay]

Links to a couple of simulators. Nothing like the professional training schools use. I have not yet tried them but they might be worth the time.

Boating Skills VT

BoatUS simulator

 

[dhays]

I was grandfathered due to age so didn't have to take any stupid test for go boating. You must have been close to the cut off point Dave. I think markpierce makes a good point. Everyone assume that everybody else is clueless and there will be fewer problems.

Yup. I am just young enough to require the card.

I also agree that defensive boating would go a long way to reducing problems. Being considerate helps as well. Something I was reminded of a few months ago when I passed too close to a sailboat. They were the stand on vessel. I knew exactly where we were and that we had lots of room. They didn't and changed course and were not happy with me. I try now to go out of my way to ensure that other boaters aren't made uncomfortable.

 

[psneeld]

We see how well thats working so far right?

it is working better than no licensing in areas that have a reasonable approach to it.

 

[pearlwindham]

Exactly

There is a defacto type of licensing for boat owners, insurance. Try to get get insurance on your new 50 ft'er without past successful experience operating the approximately same size boat... Next try to find a marina to moor your new 50 ft'er without insurance... This system seems to work as well as a boater ed course..

That's exactly what I was required to do. First boat 26ft Wellcraft fresh water boat. Presently a 54 ft Trawler. I had to hire a Captain, one whose resume had to be submitted and approved first and spend a fix amount of hours in training. While in training with an experienced 40 year Captain and A commercial fisherman including the notorious Alaskan commercial Salmon run. With only two hours on the boat we hit a concrete piling in Lake Union with a electronic helm over hydraulic steering system. Without first manually turning off Auto he will not relinquish command. The bridge was steel interfering with the compass to which Auto was monitoring. 'Twas but a flesh wound but.................**** Happens. I have not and never will leave the helm unintended while underway with or without Mr. Auto!!!! I stop the Boat if I have to or use my jug from my single engine flying days. I kept it because I need a little more reach than the average pilot......LOL.

 

[BandB]

Links to a couple of simulators. Nothing like the professional training schools use. I have not yet tried them but they might be worth the time.

Boating Skills VT

BoatUS simulator

Actually one can learn a good bit from using those. Don't get into the complexities but cover the basics.

 

[psneeld]

That's exactly what I was required to do. First boat 26ft Wellcraft fresh water boat. Presently a 54 ft Trawler. I had to hire a Captain, one whose resume had to be submitted and approved first and spend a fix amount of hours in training. While in training with an experienced 40 year Captain and A commercial fisherman including the notorious Alaskan commercial Salmon run. With only two hours on the boat we hit a concrete piling in Lake Union with a electronic helm over hydraulic steering system. Without first manually turning off Auto he will not relinquish command. The bridge was steel interfering with the compass to which Auto was monitoring. 'Twas but a flesh wound but.................**** Happens. I have not and never will leave the helm unintended while underway with or without Mr. Auto!!!! I stop the Boat if I have to or use my jug from my single engine flying days. I kept it because I need a little more reach than the average pilot......LOL.

After tens of thousands of miles at the helm...I will bet.you will probably walk away at some point.....

 

[pearlwindham]

After tens of thousands of miles at the helm...I will bet.you will probably walk away at some point.....

Absolutely and I have walked away. I just cut the throttle to neutral then reverse to full stop. Do my business get coffee munchies or whatever lift door to engine room for a smell look see. Then move on. I'm solo 75 % of time. However I have learned to never say never! Thanks for the reminder.

 

[78puget-trawler]

it is working better than no licensing in areas that have a reasonable approach to it.

I was primarily referring to the auto licensing system in this country. I think it would be pretty challenging to prove that said licensing has made driving safer for anyone. However cars and boats are an apples and oranges comparison.

 

[BruceK]

To support a "no licensing"argument you need to show licensing does more harm than good. I think you`ll struggle.
It may be an imperfect system, but I`d rather those around me had licenses than not. Licensing,testing, and the enforcement process,are better than nothing.

 

[psneeld]

Absolutely and I have walked away. I just cut the throttle to neutral then reverse to full stop. Do my business get coffee munchies or whatever lift door to engine room for a smell look see. Then move on. I'm solo 75 % of time. However I have learned to never say never! Thanks for the reminder.

If you do that in the slop you will take a spill and be worse off than letting the autopilot do its job.

If you can do that for the rest of your cruising days.....good for you.

Not many I know would do it, they just know when it's reasonable.

 

[Ski in NC]

I was primarily referring to the auto licensing system in this country. I think it would be pretty challenging to prove that said licensing has made driving safer for anyone. However cars and boats are an apples and oranges comparison.

Licensing absolutely does improve automobile safety.

The safest and most law abiding drivers are those driving on a suspended license!!

 

[FlyWright]

I stop the Boat if I have to or use my jug from my single engine flying days. I kept it because I need a little more reach than the average pilot......LOL.

another short armed pilot!

 

[78puget-trawler]

Licensing absolutely does improve automobile safety.

The safest and most law abiding drivers are those driving on a suspended license!!

Man aint that the truth!! LOL! I am always saying when encountering a person driving exactly the speed limit, "guy must be driving on a suspended". HA!

 

[twistedtree]

I was primarily referring to the auto licensing system in this country. I think it would be pretty challenging to prove that said licensing has made driving safer for anyone. However cars and boats are an apples and oranges comparison.

So you actually think driving would be the same today if we had no driver training, no testing to see if people know the rules, and no threat of license revocation?

 

[78puget-trawler]

Oh please... I think this horse is beat..

 

[BruceK]

Oh please... I think this horse is beat..

Is that a "Sorry I bothered y`all with a rubbish idea about licensing being unecessary"?

 

[78puget-trawler]

Is that a "Sorry I bothered y`all with a rubbish idea about licensing being unecessary"?

Why thank you for that thoughtful remark! Have a nice day!

 

[menzies]

PassageMaker Article. Pretty long, but read the conclusion.

Collision Avoidance: Understanding Right-of-Way to Avoid Certain Disaster | | PassageMaker

 

[koliver]

Menzies: Thanks for posting the PM analysis. Since reading that, I have looked at the video again, and replayed the first few seconds a few times. I have to agree now with the conclusion that the ferry was not slowing until after the first 5 blasts of her horns, so I must agree with the PM article conclusions.
One surprising note, the Chetzemoka has a capacity of 64 cars. To compare her to an equivalient vessel in the BC ferry fleet, she is smaller than the ferry serving Gabriola Island, the Quinsam, capacity 70 cars, but has 6000 hp to the Quinsam's 2601. I have seen Quinsam in an emergency stop, which it can do effectively, very quickly. From this fact alone, I am surprised the Chetzamoka was unable to avoid this collision.

 

[ghost]

I just dislike the use of the phrase "right of way" when talking about navigation rules. I just think it allows one to make a reference that may not really exist in the spirit of the term. Using the more traditional, and I often think correct, terms of "duties" or "burdened" just seem to set a more appropriate interpretation. I don't think it's a mistake that the Nav rules are largely void of the term "right of way", and we are certainly not talking about river navigation here where that term has some validity.

 

[twistedtree]

I just dislike the use of the phrase "right of way" when talking about navigation rules. I just think it allows one to make a reference that may not really exist in the spirit of the term. Using the more traditional, and I often think correct, terms of "duties" or "burdened" just seem to set a more appropriate interpretation. I don't think it's a mistake that the Nav rules are largely void of the term "right of way", and we are certainly not talking about river navigation here where that term has some validity.

Agreed totally, and I think this was brought up earlier. Both boats have duties. Each are different, yet equally important. The notion of "right of way" suggests one boat is free of obligations, which is certainly not the case in the nav rules.

 

[dhays]

Good article. I have just one disagreement. The article when discussing Rule 5 states;
"The presence of radar is important to mention because Rule 5 states that part of the look-out is maintained with all available means (thus if you have it you need to be using it and using it properly). Even without radar, naked-eye visibility was uninhibited."

Rule 5 says: "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and or the risk of collision."

On the day the collision took place visibility was clear and unlimited. I would contend that radar isn't necessarily appropriate to those conditions.

The argument for use of radar would be more appropriate under Rule 7.

 

[twistedtree]

What radar gives you, even in clear visibility, is a precise crossing prediction. It's the primary tool for determining what corrective action is required for a safe crossing, including providing enough distance to satisfy the ferry safety zone.

 

[psneeld]

I will have to disagree that radar is the primary tool.

It may be more accurate.....but in unlimited visibility in daylight hours....constant bearing decreasing range is good enough to be taught at all levels...and certainly good enough to avoid collision.

Unless you have a full time radar watch to alert you of a subsequent course or speed change of the other vessel....usually you can see it just fine without being face down on the radar.

Great backup yes...but primary source I don't buy. Night or limited vis much more likely...but not CAVU.

 

[cappy208]

Before the thread gets quashed... The Ferry Operator is toast. They screwed the pooch big time. The licensed individual has a greater expectation on them to be professional and competent. BUT. The NapTyme operator is a doofus.

On the subject of licensing (whether USCG or state) The minimal license (operators card) is only as good as the time spent practicing the craft. Like another thread I got hammered on: The higher the license the more time is required to even qualify to sit for an exam. The subject matter is also more in depth. The basic safety cards obtained are pretty much useless to enhance vessel operations. (they're better than nothing) But they show at least a minimal attempt to familiarize oneself with the regs.

 

[Bob Cofer]

Before the thread gets quashed... The Ferry Operator is toast. They screwed the pooch big time. The licensed individual has a greater expectation on them to be professional and competent. BUT. The NapTyme operator is a doofus.

On the subject of licensing (whether USCG or state) The minimal license (operators card) is only as good as the time spent practicing the craft. Like another thread I got hammered on: The higher the license the more time is required to even qualify to sit for an exam. The subject matter is also more in depth. The basic safety cards obtained are pretty much useless to enhance vessel operations. (they're better than nothing) But they show at least a minimal attempt to familiarize oneself with the regs.

How can you possibly judge this from a short, out of context video clip? Psychic?

Good grief!

 

[cappy208]

How can you possibly judge this from a short, out of context video clip? Psychic?

Good grief!

Was there contact? Y, N?
Was there anyone in control of NapTyme while she was underway? Y,N?
Did the Give Way vessel give way? (in time to avoid collision) Y,N?

There are other conditions to consider. But two vessels collided. That's pretty difficult to make excuses for. The one with the license will be held to a higher accountability than the unlicensed one. (Especially since the licensed operator was the give way vessel)

It's about as clear as this one (in which this ferry was NOT the give way vessel)

 

[Cigatoo]

Before the thread gets quashed... The Ferry Operator is toast. They screwed the pooch big time. The licensed individual has a greater expectation on them to be professional and competent. BUT. The NapTyme operator is a doofus.

On the subject of licensing (whether USCG or state) The minimal license (operators card) is only as good as the time spent practicing the craft. Like another thread I got hammered on: The higher the license the more time is required to even qualify to sit for an exam. The subject matter is also more in depth. The basic safety cards obtained are pretty much useless to enhance vessel operations. (they're better than nothing) But they show at least a minimal attempt to familiarize oneself with the regs.

Those were my thoughts exactly. That Ferry had no business colliding with the other boat period. Never mind that the ferry was the give way vessel. Unfortunately the Nap Tyme operators actions are to be expected and the professional is expected to look out for those types of (being generous here) "people with poor judgement". If you want to keep your license you watch out for everyone. People in pleasure boats even remotely following the rules of the road would be a dream come true. Unfortunately the operator of Nap Tyme has nothing to lose (other than the initial consequences) where as the Ferry boat captain is probably screwed.

 

[tinped]

Even if the ferry captain is not found to be substantially guilty, the chances of the management of the ferry not taking action against him/her for not backing down prior (if the video is to be believed) is very small. At this point, the captain has definitely been removed from the helm, and most likely reassigned to the port office. Been there ,done that on the SI ferry. Bad press is definitely a no-no.

 

[BandB]

Bad press is a no-no, but there's another element in play. If a termination of the ferry operator is to occur, it may well be delayed and just a reassignment initially. In terminating him, they are admitting guilt on the part of their employee, so they may very well delay any action until all insurance and any other claims are settled. I can't say for sure this will happen, anymore than we are sure of anything else speculated here, but just that it's another factor in play.