The 36th Americas Cup

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koliver said:
I agree that spinnakers add several elements that are both interesting and nice looking, but flying a chute at 40 knots isn't going to happen in 10 knots of wind. Also, foiling requires those speeds, just to stay up off the water, which in turn requires downwind sailing to be at wide angles off of directly downwind, to stay up on the foil.
Broaching still happens. That is what got American Magic. Now they need to figure out how to survive a broach at close to 50 knots.
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Excellent point. Funnily enough after the last race, my brother, who is definitely no sailor, has been fascinated right throughout the series, and asked me - rather texted me, (from NZ where he lives), asking how can a boat, sailing ostensibly downwind, reach about 40knots in only 14 knots of wind, as it seems to defy the laws of physics..?

I explained to him that it's all in the way that sailing across the wind, (as KOliver mentioned), and not dead downwind, they create their own 'apparent wind'. So, the faster they go, the greater the apparent wind, and it is that which allows them to go faster than the actual wind, and it is that also which precludes the use of spinnakers or even large ballooning headsails like genoas and gennakers.

So, sorry Menzies, but large headsails are not going to happen, but you can bet they do plenty of jib and main trimming. :socool:
 
Peter B said:
I explained to him that it's all in the way that sailing across the wind, (as KOliver mentioned), and not dead downwind, they create their own 'apparent wind'. So, the faster they go, the greater the apparent wind, and it is that which allows them to go faster than the actual wind, and it is that also which precludes the use of spinnakers or even large ballooning headsails like genoas and
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To further confound him you can explain how the sails luff during a gybe :)

I was fortunate to have played around in ice boats from time to time. Without that point of reference I'm not sure I'd be as interested as I am. There's a lot of subtle stuff, particularly downwind, that's lost to many soft water sailors.
 
I've been a sailing person since grade school on Long Island, sailed through college, and decades later we still go sailing on charters every summer, and for years I've been trying to figure out how to crew for at least the Vineyard Race out of Stamford (although now I'm probably too old and slow). We were in Newport in 2015 on the water to watch the Volvo Ocean Racers blast off to Lisbon. All that said, the current AC is fascinating to watch, a technician's ballet and very impressive, but it's not sailing. I'm not sure what it is, but it's not sailing. Press the ignore button on those who disagree all you want, up to you, but it's not necessarily ignorance of sailing and racing that makes some of us think that way.

To me it's something approaching running the Indy 500 or Monte Carlo with remote control cars, from a console in a bunker 1,000 miles away. Not quite, but close. When you've got grinders - essentially human generators - who can function at high efficiency without ever looking at the water (or even feeling the wind, as Graeme Spence UK) said when he talked about good cockpit design that kept the grinders out of the wind and spray), for them at least, that's something other than sailing.
 
koliver said:
...On the UK boat, between races there were shots of one of the crew trying to deal with the Cunningham adjuster, and some discussion of the extent of adjustment lost and its potential effect in that day's race....
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Knowing what" the Cunningham" is pretty much sorts the (? ex)sailors from the non sailors.
 
menzies said:
Well that's all well and good but i do miss sail management which is absent in these boats.

I especially miss the spinnaker runs, especially on a beam, risk of broaching, gybing it, hitting the mark and having to get it down and the foresail up. To me that is one of the most skillful and challenging aspects of sailboat racing.
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For the most part, the old style races were held well offshore, well beyond the eyeshot to watch much. Cameras were not nearly as sophisticated with stabilization that worked in decent swells. Net effect was racing was a participant's sport, not a spectators one. That clearly changed - SF in 2013 was simply amazing with all the camera angles.

There are still a number of more traditional races out there. Rolex Cup, and Big Boat Series. As a matter of fact, the foiling AC is the outlier. Except for Moth style dinghy racing, traditional sails are by far the norm.

Peter
 
BruceK said:
Knowing what" the Cunningham" is pretty much sorts the (? ex)sailors from the non sailors.
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... and real sailors know it as just another downhaul, for the luff. Rather than calling it a fancy name! :D
 
menzies said:
... and real sailors know it as just another downhaul, for the luff. Rather than calling it a fancy name! :D
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Please excuse my picky correction, but:

The Cunningham is actually not the downhaul, but the hole above the tack of the sail, where a downhaul attaches. For brevity, the whole apparatus, hole, rope, etc is called the Cunningham. This accomplishes tightening the luff of the sail without exceeding the maximum allowable length of the luff, so sails can be made to occupy the full allowable length of the luff in light air, with a relaxed Cunningham, or in heavy air with the Cunningham hole pulled down to nearer the tack and tension on the luff, but still not exceeding that allowable maximum length.

This has been around so long that its origins are forgotten by most. I do recall having to keep the luff of the sail within the limits of the black bands at the head and tack when I started out with a Star in the early 70s.

Nowadays, as Menzies implies, cruising sailors have only a single downhaul above the tack, which itself is pinned at the gooseneck, and no black band or racing rule to worry about.

Bruce, there is no such thing as "Ex-sailor". Sometimes it takes a harsh nudge to re-awaken an old sailor, but once a sailor.....
 
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koliver said:
Please excuse my picky correction, but:

The Cunningham is actually not the downhaul, but the hole above the tack of the sail, where a downhaul attaches. For brevity, the whole apparatus, hole, rope, etc is called the Cunningham. This accomplishes tightening the luff of the sail without exceeding the maximum allowable length of the luff, so sails can be made to occupy the full allowable length of the luff in light air, with a relaxed Cunningham, or in heavy air with the Cunningham hole pulled down to nearer the tack and tension on the luff, but still not exceeding that allowable maximum length.

This has been around so long that its origins are forgotten by most. I do recall having to keep the luff of the sail within the limits of the black bands at the head and tack when I started out with a Star in the early 70s.

Nowadays, as Menzies implies, cruising sailors have only a single downhaul above the tack, which itself is pinned at the gooseneck, and no black band or racing rule to worry about.

Bruce, there is no such thing as "Ex-sailor". Sometimes it takes a harsh nudge to re-awaken an old sailor, but once a sailor.....
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Well, we're going to have to differ on that, as I believe what you are describing is the Cunningham eye.
 
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Downhaul is usually referred to a line which pulls the tack and gooseneck down together where the tack is attached to the gooseneck. Obviously the gooseneck must be on a track or other means to allow it to go up and down on the mast and a cleat is fixed to the mast to secure it.

Cunningham is used on fixed gooseneck rigs and usually has a "s" hook to attach to a large pad eye in the sail just above the tack and usually includes several pulleys to gain advantage and a cleat on the mast or boom to make it fast.

At least that is what I've always considered the difference to be.
 
I`m sure Mr. Cunningham or his descendants will get wind of the discussion soon and resolve the issue. Meanwhile good to know that despite all that new fangled gear and sailing on stilts, there`s still use for a "Cunningham". Whatever it turns out to be.:D
 
Well, this give the US boat an entire year to find a 'new and proven' skipper.

Races are won or lost with the start and this skipper could not find the proper position to cross the line.
Fire his ass, as he was fired from his previous boat.
Could I do better? Nope but, I am not being paid to be a skipper of an AC boat.
 
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Some years ago we were privileged to see a pit stop in Auckland for the Volvo Ocean Racing boats. A full vessel rigging and electronics rebuild would be close to correct, done in a week.

These S/Vs entail wonderful engineering, crew skills, hull design and sail science. This Series may well be the penultimate for those of us who have busted their butts on a heaving foredeck at zero dark thirty doing a sail change.

I would argue that this around the world race with numerous pit stops is more enthralling than the Americas Cup especially with onboard technology allowing followers to see, hear and feel the excitement and travails of these athletes and speed boats.

After the boats left Auckland they sped to the Southern Ocean and around the Cape. Thirty knots coming off a 40' swell was exciting to hear about. Look this Series up, youse and you'all will be amazed. And the money involved, huge, possibly dwarfing the AC.
 
Yep. I mentioned in a post way above that we happened to be on our boat in Narragansett Bay when the Volvo Ocean racers took off out of Newport to Lisbon in 2015. One of the coolest, most thrilling, most impressive things we've ever seen on the water. The last one left on the same day we did, stormy conditions. We tried our best to stay well out of the way around Pt Judith but they blasted past us with spray and wind flying, operating that boat like a symphony orchestra. That's sailing.
 
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OldDan1943 said:
Races are won or lost with the start.
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This could be directed to Ineos Team UK. The Italian boat points higher upwind, and has probably a 2 knot speed advantage downwind.

Sir Ben needs to win each start just to give the Brits a chance, but they are getting schooled. Mistakes are costly. And again, the Italians have made less.

The downwind speed advantage of Luna Rosa will lead to a 7-0 sweep.

Very entertaining. Would like to see more nations take part, like Canada. :ermm:
 
PNW Drifter said:
Very entertaining. Would like to see more nations take part, like Canada. :ermm:
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Not only do nations take part but Team NZ is getting funding from lots of places including China, McDonald's and Emirates. It is financial syndicates that at the behest of a few experienced design teams scour worldwide for the vast sums that are required. The names on the sails advertise the backers.

NZ put forth a budget of over $130 million for infrastructure and crowd facilities. When Oracle won a few years ago San Francisco refused to let it happen again instead funneling those big monies "elsewhere" to help the city's indigent.

With Covid it would be interesting to see financials and impacts on expected revenues.
 
sunchaser said:
...With Covid it would be interesting to see financials and impacts on expected revenues.
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I really really don't want to detour this thread into a COVID thread (really), but I don't think it'll have any impact at all on financing for high-end, alternate-universe activities like the America's Cup. I'm a billion light years from any salt water or AC activities, but even this little outpost South Dakota on the prairie is awash in money. Can't get contractors for housing, lumber prices have skyrocketed, housing prices are climbing fast, this state of about 800,000 people (total) attracted $3.4 billion in tourism spending in 2020. I know, peanuts for a large population state but huge here. And the state collected more revenue in 2020 than anytime in its history, with nearly half a billion in one-time money in 2020 alone (I know, peanuts elsewhere but everything's relative). Whether it's real economics or fake money (that is, simply printing more money to fund trillions in giveaways), I see no effects at all -- for now. Take this for example, from Boat International:
 

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People have been complaining about the cost to campaign a racing yacht for 100+ years (auto racing too).

Falls under the category of rich - folk problems.
 
mvweebles said:
People have been complaining about the cost to campaign a racing yacht for 100+ years (auto racing too).

Falls under the category of rich - folk problems.
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You have used a term "rich" without defining it. Give us all a hint, how much is rich.:D
If I have a dollar more than you, am I rich?
But your boat is bigger than my boat so you much be richer.
So now, I have a dollar more than you and you have a bigger boat. Using the term "rich" has no definition unless you give it a definition.
 
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mvweebles said:
People who can afford to drop many millions on a yacht.
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Ah, being able to drop millions on a yacht? There is a difference between 'being able to' and actually spending millions on a yacht are distantly related.
:D It depends on the decisions we make.
 
Larry Ellison spent something like $100m in 2013 AC. Formula 1 car racing costs tens of millions per year to keep going.

OldDan, you can parse words, but these guys are I ratified air. "can afford" vs "actually spend" is way beyond my pay grade.

There are probably a dozen levels between this guys and what I might be able to afford if I set aside a bunch of other stuff.

Peter
 
Old Dan, stop being argumentative just for the sake of it, and let's get back to the subject. The Americas Cup.

Yes, Ainslie needs to win the starts to even stand a chance now, but remember they blew away all opposition to the point they were direct entrants to the final we are watching now. They can't really be that bad. But maybe so long without actually racing while they waited didn't do them any favour. Team NZ will face this even more, when the time come sot defend.

What bugs me is why there isn't a damn Aussie boat over there right now. Jimmy Spithill is Australian, and the best match racer on the planet. He proved that in San Fran. when they came back from about 8 races down, (I forget the exact number), and still managed a win to hold on to the cup for Oracle US.

Dean Barker was never much chop at starts, (sad to say, as he's a fellow ex-Kiwi), and lost in the above series just referred to, so not sure why the Americans picked him up this time round. We won't see him again I suspect.

But Sir Ben Ainslie is a really good match race winner, on a par with Spithill, so the dismal starts lately are a puzzle. Let's hope he gets it right from now on, or they are toast.

Actually, even though an ex-Kiwi, I wouldn't mind the Auld Mug going to Italy, (heavens knows they've tried enough times), or Britain. Good for the sport. Might even prompt an Aussie attempt again..? Looking forward to Wednesday..! :socool:
 
mvweebles said:
Larry Ellison spent something like $100m in 2013 AC. Formula 1 car racing costs tens of millions per year to keep going.

OldDan, you can parse words, but these guys are I ratified air. "can afford" vs "actually spend" is way beyond my pay grade.

There are probably a dozen levels between this guys and what I might be able to afford if I set aside a bunch of other stuff.

Peter
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What Ellison does with his money is Ellison's business and none of my business.
What you do or how spend your money is none of my business. Enjoy enjoy .:D
 
Peter B said:
Old Dan, stop being argumentative just for the sake of it, and let's get back to the subject. The Americas Cup.
l:
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That is my point, how you spend you spend your money is none of my business.
 
OldDan1943 said:
That is my point, how you spend you spend your money is none of my business.
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Agreed. Conversation isn't about who lspends what. It's a about how much money it takes to campaign an AC boat. Larry Ellison is/was one of the few who have free cash to do so.

I think many/most find it interesting the amount of money it takes, and who would spend it.

Peter
 
Oh, everything's relative with the word "rich" too. I'm greatly blessed in life -- never thought I'd be at this point when I was back in college in Alaska driving a Chevy Blazer that was so rusted out when my coffee got cold I would pour it through a rusted-out hole in the floor onto the highway (don't accidentally drop any small objects!). But I think it's safe to say by just about everybody's measure, America's Cup financing, or the Volvo Ocean Race and other endeavors like that, where they need eight or nine figure financing, that's way beyond most of us. If it costs more to fill a fuel tank than the price of my entire current boat, that's rich. If the multiple tires on the hull transport cradle cost more than my entire boat, that's rich. What's rich to me? This is rich to me:

 
and there are those who would say, "It would be better if he gave his money to the poor."
It is his money and what he does with it, is none of my business nor concern.
Me, I spend all my extra cash (if there is such a thing) on my boat, booze and women.
Soooo, if you do not approve, I dont care.
 
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