The single engine thing

[sunchaser]

Yes, logs everywhere in the PNW. Whales too! And rain, buckets of it. Hazards galore. Do not come to the PNW.

That said, logs in SE Alaska are minuscule in comparison to lower BC. A weather eye is important in a single too. But at 8 knots or so pretty easy to avoid the stuff that is lurking our there. That and lay off the cocktail hour until in the slip or anchorage.

One thing I note in and around Sitka are the go fast twin engine fishing boats. At 25 knots in the fog, darkness and rain while hauling a charter group to the "grounds," anything can jump and grab you. Glad these guys have radar and AIS, at least they seem to miss our vessel.

 

[hmason]

One other thing to consider is how fast you can make a repair and what is your tolerance for sea sickness. For example, suppose you suddenly hear an alarm and your engine temperature gauge reads 250 degrees F. The first thing you must do is shutdown the engine. The waters are rough and it's too deep to anchor. Your SO or other crew is now terrified as you turn beam to the sea.

You dash to the engine room which is now red hot and you need to change an impeller. You can can't get near that hot engine and the rocking and rolling is making you sick. You can imagine the rest. And, this is not a far fetched situation.

You will often hear that the big commercial fishing boats are single engine. Keep in mind that their goal is to fill the boat with fish or crab and a second engine is not only expensive but takes up "profitability" space. They also have experienced crew aboard that can probably tear down the engine and overhaul it at sea.

Howard

 

[Old deckhand]

Sunchaser,
We were heading north in Johnstone St. 2 days after a log barge lost it's cargo in a storm. Ten hours of weaving through, pushing and bouncing over lost logs. Yep, familiar with BC log issues. Ken

 

[Nomad Willy]

We have a single and have had engine problems including one total failure in Georgia Strait. We had a slow down (to slow idle) for several minutes right off Cape Caution BC. I now know what the problem was and have rebuilt the entire supply side of the fuel system excluding the tanks. Actually I had one more engine failure right in Thorne Bay about 4 minutes from our slip.
So I have some lustful thoughts about twins and good get me homes but I'll probably just continue to slog along on one engine and get ever better at preventative maintenance. Concentrating on fuel and cooling systems.
Sure would be nice to have a single screw boat w twin engines. Then I'd hit a log (been there done that) bend the prop bad and wish I had a regular twin.
Tripple screws has merit also IMO. One could run two at 75% load and have the third for extra power ..... that I don't think anyone needs. Or run one (center engine) for fishing or other slow running. It does give options.

 

[MurrayM]

**Thread creep alert**

We had a slow down (to slow idle) for several minutes right off Cape Caution BC.

Must have been nerve wracking to say the least!

We came around the corner heading south in sea kayaks (with everything disappearing and only sky above at the bottom of the swells) then met two ocean going tugs without tows racing north...things got a tad confused while their wakes were crossing each other.

 

[River Cruiser]

I have twin NA Hino EH-700 for power, I'am a competent mechanic, made a living at for 40 + years. I've seen some sudden failures, a few were catastrophic, the simple failure to start or produce power were usually a fuel delivery or control problem a plugged air filter, sometimes a starting or charging circuit problem. I've never found dirty fuel from marinas a problem, if that's a problem in the area you cruise then carry plenty of filters or find a different source of fuel. Turbos will eventually fail but proper starting and a cool down period before killing the engine will lessen the chance of premature failure. Catastrophic failures include broken crankshafts, the machine kept running, the clutch wouldn't disengage and couldn't be adjusted. Dropped valves, spun crank and rod bearings, blown head gaskets, broken oil pump drive shaft. Completely blown engines that came unraveled and blew big holes in the block. The thing most of these had in common was thousands of hours on the meters and in a few a certain model in certain applications, these had way over the amount of hours a large majority of us will ever put on our engines.
My answer to the OP would be #2, a properly maintained and operated engine would not be anything I would worry about on a cruising boat. Stock the spares needed to do 200 to 300 hours of routine maintenance, filters, oil, belts, impellers, a oring kit, gasket material, raw water pump, a starter and alternator. Depending on where you cruise a running gear problem is more likely to stop you than a properly maintained engine that's why I carry a set of props, I'll eventually add a shaft and strut. One other thing pay attention to your engine, look for oil or coolant leaks, if one starts check it out, find the reason and then repair. Listen to your engine and watch your gauges, if something changes check it out, find out what's caused the change, your engine will try to tell there's a problem developing before it has a major failure. I would add this is my experience with a few common brands and models found in excavation and construction equipment - Caterpillar, Detroit, Mack, J Deere, IH, Duetz, Murphy, and limited Cummins and of course Hinos.

 

[sunchaser]

I'am a competent mechanic, made a living at for 40 + years. My answer to the OP would be #2, a properly maintained and operated engine would not be anything I would worry about on a cruising boat. .

What engine setup would you do for cruising off the Pacific Coast if you were not a competent and experienced mechanic.

 

[JDCAVE]

I worked for an international agency in salmon management for 34 years. I started my career as a biological technician working on charters of commercial salmon vessels. I went on to supervise that program and then to oversee the general operations of the program as well as a Hydroacoustics program. We chartered the finest fishermen available on both sides of the line. During my tenure, I can remember only one instance where a boat failed to operate or was dead in the water due to engine failure (with the exception of one group of individuals who were not representative of the norm). I'm guessing that probably represents 500+ charter days per year or 17,000 charter days. There were other failures that resulted in missed fishing time, but these were usually due to failures of fishing equipment (hydraulic lines) or net damage. Never did running gear or failure of transmissions cause a breakdown on the water. All of these vessels are older than 30 years of age now and all with the exception of one vessel were equipped with naturally aspirated engines and no turbo. Only a couple of the boats had twins and these were fast gillnet boats. The common theme? The best fishermen look after their equipment, and take measures before failure. The one outlier? Well we had to operate a charter in an area with a limited number of individuals to choose from and it was clear their equipment was jury rigged and held together with bailing wire.

We have a KK42 with the Lehmann 135. A venerable and respected mechanic in Steveston who services the commercial fishing fleet and various small ferries and water taxis strongly recommended that I examine the dampener plate, which he helped my son and I do. It had been previously replaced 1,000 hours ago and it showed little wear. His advice on the Borg Warner transmission was to not operate the vessel at low rpms (<1,000) for extended periods. He also was concerned about where the shaft connected with the transmission as it was only held in place with a couple of set screws. He drilled right through the shaft and I put a stainless bolt with a nylox nut on it. On his advice, we put a 2nd belt on the alternator, which should reduce the overall load on the water pump. I have a spare starter motor. I change the impeller on the raw water pump every year and carry two spares. I have new aluminum fuel tanks and a ESI fuel polishing system, the same one I've seen installed on new build KK 58's. I move fuel about, polishing all fuel once a year, at least. I have dual Racor 900's. All filter elements are clean. Probably should get a spare alternator, water pump and a raw water pump as well. I have taken Bob Smith's course twice but I don't consider myself a mechanic by any stretch.

I wanted a single engine boat. Most of the commercial salmon boats are single engine. One fisherman told me: "two engines, twice the problems." It was for that reason I decided to choose a single engine boat. Good fishermen make sure everything gets a proper go over prior to the season. Most of the crab boats and some of the prawn boats have twins. The prawn boat that ties up in front of us had a problem with one of his Cat engines this spring. Both of engines had gone through a major service last year and one was not performing to specs this year and had to be removed for a major service again prior to the season. I'm not sure what work was carried out.

I guess I try and follow preventative maintenance.

 

[Rsysol]

One other thing to consider is how fast you can make a repair and what is your tolerance for sea sickness. For example, suppose you suddenly hear an alarm and your engine temperature gauge reads 250 degrees F. The first thing you must do is shutdown the engine. The waters are rough and it's too deep to anchor. Your SO or other crew is now terrified as you turn beam to the sea.

You dash to the engine room which is now red hot and you need to change an impeller. You can can't get near that hot engine and the rocking and rolling is making you sick. You can imagine the rest. And, this is not a far fetched situation.

You will often hear that the big commercial fishing boats are single engine. Keep in mind that their goal is to fill the boat with fish or crab and a second engine is not only expensive but takes up "profitability" space. They also have experienced crew aboard that can probably tear down the engine and overhaul it at sea.

Howard

I highly recommend a sea anchor if you are offshore, points you to the swell to minimize issues such as this. IMHO a sea anchor is a required item for long range cruising.

 

[windmill29130]

 

[Britannia]

**Thread creep alert**

Who are you calling a "thread creep?" ;-)

 

[Britannia]

Okay, okay - point well made. I guess since I started this I should try to reign it in.

Here's what I have learned: As we all know it's a personal choice. The best options lie somewhere between preventative maintenance/spares and towing a spare second boat behind you.

Thanks again for all the feedback - I really did find it useful.

Now you can all get back to discussing more important things like the difference between full and semi displacement.

Richard

 

[CPseudonym]

Who are you calling a "thread creep?" ;-)

Did someone call our resident thread Creep?

 

[JDCAVE]

You will often hear that the big commercial fishing boats are single engine. Keep in mind that their goal is to fill the boat with fish or crab and a second engine is not only expensive but takes up "profitability" space. They also have experienced crew aboard that can probably tear down the engine and overhaul it at sea.

Howard

I don't think that hold size is relevant to single or twins on commercial fishing vessels. And, while fishermen can certainly do some repairs, major engine failures are beyond the capability of most fishermen I know, the exception being large trawlers that often have engineers onboard. Larger engines have "power packs" and cylinders that are swapped out. In 1979, I was a technician in a large dragger where the main engine has a piston that failed. That occurred off the west side of Texada Island in a SE gail in the middle of January. The wind blew us all the way up Geogia Strait to Campbell River, where a tug brought us into port. The engineer was able to swap out the power pack and had everything onboard except a proper torque wrench available and hence had to return back to Vancouver.

Most commercial salmon vessels have a dry exhaust and keel coolers, rather than wet exhaust and heat exchangers.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

 

[Nomad Willy]

Okay, okay - point well made. I guess since I started this I should try to reign it in.

Here's what I have learned: As we all know it's a personal choice. The best options lie somewhere between preventative maintenance/spares and towing a spare second boat behind you.

Thanks again for all the feedback - I really did find it useful.

Now you can all get back to discussing more important things like the difference between full and semi displacement.

Richard

Britannia,
You don't decide when to end a thread even if you started it. A thread is alive and well as long as someone has something meaningful to say ... meaningful to say.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. B. Ya! what he said...

 

[River Cruiser]

What engine setup would you do for cruising off the Pacific Coast if you were not a competent and experienced mechanic.

I would prefer a naturally aspirated for the lack of problems that can arise and the simplicity of the intake and exhaust plumbing, less joints to leak. The Cat 3300 series is a very sturdy, simple engine that will run thousands of hours with fairly simple maintenance required. The earliest version I believe was designated D-333, the later were 3304 or 3306 - 4 or 6 cylinder. No longer in production so a person would have to go with factory reman. In the real world of today where turbo charged is the norm I would give Isuzu a hard look, I've seen them with near 10,000 hours and nothing done but filters and oil changes. I never saw one with any failure worse than a turbo and it didn't send any debris into the combustion chambers to screw up the valves or head. I suspect J Deere would also deserve a look, I've been round some of JDs little 4 cylinder units that kept going with minimum maintenance. I left cummins off the list because of limited experience with them and what I had didn't impress me. I know many owners of this brand would take exception to this and vigorously defend their engines. For the availability of parts in my experience Caterpillar can't be beat, a few years ago I rebuilt a 1938 D2 for a contractor and had no problem getting parts most were on the shelf of the local dealer. I also can appreciate the fact that any builder can let one get out the door and have a premature failure, this will normally happen during the warranty period if a engine is used instead of sitting idle in a slip, garage or parking lot.

 

[sunchaser]

Ron

You have pretty well described several singles that should do fine. Given JD's summation of his single engine experiences and many other thread respondents on TF, the key for Britannia it would appear is to get educated on his "new" boat and how to fix things that would likely go thump in the night. This would apply to either single or twin engine vessels.

Or, Britannia could simply buy a Bayliner with twins and a Fortress and cover that audience of several current TF threads.

 

[hmason]

A Fortress? Why a Fortress? Please explain. :lol:

 

[Nomad Willy]

River Cruiser,
I'm very pro Isuzu. Who marinizes Isuzu engines besides Klassen/Hatton/Yukon?

 

[PopArcher]

As all said above, there is nothing better than routine maintenance, spares, capable tender and vigilance. But, I would add a get home sailing rig if headed off shore to far away places.

 

[bayview]

When I switched from sail to twin power it took a long time before I regained confidence that I woulg always get somewhere. That was never a worry with sail.
Today I much prefer twins . They must be set up for totally independent operation though.
I carry lots of spares but why bother with coolant when fresh water works fine?

 

[sunchaser]

I carry lots of spares but why bother with coolant when fresh water works fine?

For my diesel heater, we are Pacific Coast boaters.

 

[BandB]

There is also the psychological piece. We own only twin engine boats and have no interest in single. Mindfully we know that single engines are capable of most of what twins are other than the speed we desire. Still we do take some comfort in twins. Now the issue is one must not get over confident and there is a drive to do so. Must keep in mind all the things that are potential issues and have nothing to do with how many engines. The further you're straying from shore and services, the more redundancy you need.

 

[Xsbank]

You must never use plain water in your diesel except to get home, slowly.

 

[QB]

You must never use plain water in your diesel except to get home, slowly.

Says you! My GM 71 series manual says:

 

[River Cruiser]

River Cruiser,
I'm very pro Isuzu. Who marinizes Isuzu engines besides Klassen/Hatton/Yukon?

I really didn't know of anyone but Klassen, I like Isuzu because of how dependable all of them have been in equipment. Seldom was a breakdown engine related, a low power complaint was usually cured with fuel filters, starting problems were a dead battery, the turbo failure was the only major problem. If treated half way decently they start and run without any problems.

 

[bayview]

Never is a strong word. It is true that modern high performance diesels often require a supplemental coolant additive to prevent cavitation erosion under high loads. SCA is easier to store, for engines that require it, than gallon jugs of premixed coolant.

 

[markpierce]

Don't two engines have twice the failure rate of a single engine?

 

[windmill29130]

Two is better than one!