This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

[LN-RTP]

Because if it is not mandatory, it often does not happen voluntarily. As we have read in this thread.....

Then the bad apples will go out of business, (or should) natural selection..

 

[Delfin]

The relatively small companies and small volumes do not give the manufacturers a lot of cushion when it comes to the resources to rework defects or purchaser customizations. This can lead to short cuts and oversights due to the need to get the boat out the door so the manufacturer can get the check.

Although the boat didn't sink, one of the sales of the new Great Harbor TT35 also descended into a lawyers' fight over quality and design issues.

I know you're not offering that as an excuse, but it also fails as an explanation. Virtually everything wrong with this vessel was either the product of sloppy manufacturing or bad design. Good design costs no more than bad design, and I can think of at least one configuration that would cost CW less to construct for the purpose intended than the current pod. You have to pay people the same hourly wage to install windows that leak as you do windows that don't leak. The labor budget for this boat no doubt included hooking up the shower, etc.

In other words, quality can be more expensive if the materials used cost more, but when you're talking design and adequate supervision, it costs less to do it right. The lesson here is not to assume any new boat meets that standard, sad and unnecessary though that may be.

 

[AdmiralS]

Jeff has provided a further update on TugNuts that they are going to work together to resolve this situation.

"I had a good conversation with André, the owner of the 302. I apologized in the name of Fluid Motion and Port Boat House for not having picked up the phone sooner. We both agreed, that nothing would be gained by pointing fingers and a long legal battle. The boat will be coming back to the factory. Meanwhile, Andre has offered to take down his website.
Jeff Messmer
V.P Sales and Marketing
Ranger Tugs
25802 Pacific Hwy So.
Kent, Wa 98032
Phone 253 839 5213
Cell 206 940 0571
e-mail jeffmessmer@rangertugs.com"

The TugNuts • View topic - Total nightmare!!

 

[DDW]

While I see the "belt and braces" pragmatism in having a new boat surveyed, surely a 400K buyer is entitled to expect a new boat from a builder who tests,delivered through an experienced dealer,to be free of defects.

This is a naive expectation. If you aren't willing and able to do the survey yourself, hire someone who is. Most of the items on the original list as well as what likely sunk the boat should have been caught by even a cursory survey. As Reagan said: "Trust, but verify."

The production boating industry isn't as bad as the RV industry - yet - but they seem to be headed that direction. In many modern products, the customer serves as the QA department. Most computer software packages are a case in point. You really can't compare a production boat to a production car. The Cutwater 30 is built in small prototype quantities, even considering its entire production life. Prototype cars would have these problems too. When you build 100,000 or 1M of something, by the time you've built the first thousand or so, you have the kinks worked out.

 

[Delfin]

Jeff has provided a further update on TugNuts that they are going to work together to resolve this situation.

"I had a good conversation with André, the owner of the 302. I apologized in the name of Fluid Motion and Port Boat House for not having picked up the phone sooner. We both agreed, that nothing would be gained by pointing fingers and a long legal battle. The boat will be coming back to the factory. Meanwhile, Andre has offered to take down his website.
Jeff Messmer
V.P Sales and Marketing
Ranger Tugs
25802 Pacific Hwy So.
Kent, Wa 98032
Phone 253 839 5213
Cell 206 940 0571
e-mail jeffmessmer@rangertugs.com"

The TugNuts • View topic - Total nightmare!!

In the Internet Age, it is so much harder to avoid bad publicity when you deserve it, and frequently when you do not. Sounds like Andre' will be getting a new boat, or the existing one gutted and rebuilt. Now, if he had issues with the new build, one can only imagine what this one might look like.

When I contracted with a yard in Canada to install systems and cabinetry I designed or built for Delfin, I was there weekly but I also hired a surveyor to visit the yard once a month to inspect the work progress from his perspective. Might be an idea for Andre to consider the same approach.

 

[BandB]

An average survey for me is about 30 recommendations. Three or four times a year I am commissioned to survey a new vessel pre - delivery. These new vessels average about 20 recommendations, some quite significant .... 11 throughulls but access to only 7, an oil filter you could see but no way to reach it, neverbonds, improper or nonexistent grounds, improper gasoline compartment ventilation and one where they actually forgot to put glass fiber in a large section of the hull ..... not at all impressed by the industry.

One thing I think that does need to be made clear is that like any industry there is a wide variation in quality. There are also comments implying this is just a problem with US builders and that's far from the case as Europe and Asia have both high quality builders and those who have many issues.

We have purchased quite a few new boats. When we were lake boaters we weren't even aware of surveyors. However, we purchased Sea Ray and Cobalt up to 30' and had no issues. They were proven production boats. I would say on those two brands we averaged punch lists upon our trip back to the dealer of 2 items on the Cobalt's and 5 on the Sea Ray's and never had a major issue. Now, oddly, we looked at and considered a Sea Ray L Series boat a couple of years ago and talking to owners who liked their boats we were shocked with the number of issues on their punch lists and problems encountered still months after delivery. Many were returned to the factory for final warranty work due to the dealer failing to address the issues. Those boats were new designs and being built in a factory that had been opened and closed, parts of it failed in the hands of other builders and the employee base was no more loyal and dedicated to the company than the company had been to them. This on top of rushing the boats to market.

Now, as to builders of larger production, semi-production or semi-custom or custom boats for coastal and ocean use. We've purchased several and all were surveyed prior to acceptance. Two were Italian production boats already in the US location's inventory. They had two items on one and one item on the other which needed addressing. One took less than an hour of work and was just cabinetry or doors and nothing significant. The other, only had one issue, but it was dissatisfaction with how some of the electrical wiring was run. It required several hours work, done within 24 hours, but was something we considered quite critical and well worth the cost of the survey.

One boat was from a UK builder. 6 recommendations came from the surveyor. They were the type things that would have been very annoying had they just been found in normal usage. They were also the type things that dealers say, "just bring it back anytime and we'll fix them". We said, "You'll fix them now or we won't take delivery." All were rectified within 24 hours although it meant several workers on the boat to do so.

One boat was a US built center console, which while somewhat a production model had a lot of interior uniqueness. We were dealing with the factory, not a dealer. 7 items were found, all of which were just lack of attention to detail. I think they were probably typical of the builder and they weren't use to the scrutiny. While a seat that didn't stay properly in position or a cabinet door misaligned didn't especially surprise us, live wells not properly filling or draining were and a plugged cockpit drain was. Those were both things they dealt with on every boat they had ever built.

Now, we've also purchased two larger boats from a US builder. The surveyor was actually involved as our representative through the entire process so at the point the builder said the boat was ready for delivery and at the time of the buyer's sea trial vs. sea trials the builder had already done, there was only one item noted between the two boats. Furthermore, an employee from the builder was present on the shakedown cruise of one week on one and two weeks on the other. These cruises were in very rough water and yet all items found were extremely minor and fixed on the spot. When the shakedown cruises were complete and the boat taken back to the builder for any adjustments, there was only one punch list item between the two boats and it was lighting in one head that had to be replaced.

There are at least two major US builders with a reputation for delivering quality boats. There are small production builders who do the same and there are a few small custom SF builders who do incredible work. There is one long term US builder of steel and aluminum yachts and commercial vessels also that has a tremendous reputation except they had problems on one boat which was far outside their normal build. They failed to timely complete it because there were several things they'd never done and didn't know how to do. They did compensate the buyer generously at tremendous expense to themselves. Both they and the buyer realized they were the wrong people for that boat. It was finally completed in excellent condition but meanwhile the buyer had started a new build at Feadship, far better equipped to handle his unique requirements such as all bullet proof glass and a safe room and security to handle an attack on the boat.

There have been other US builders who their quality has varied consistently with their financial situation. They went from excellent to disasters as desperation crept in. They had ownership changes. This happens with major production builders as well. Look at someone like Genmar and boats like Carver and Marquis and all the people left with no warranty when bankruptcy hit.

Now, for excellence I say look at three large US builders today-Westport, Hatteras and Viking. These are builders whose quality compares to and generally exceeds anyone else in the world. Westport delivers nearly problem free with their extensive pre-delivery program. Hatteras and Viking deliver excellent boats and quickly fix any problems and address any issues. The SF segment in general is excellent with builders all along the east coast.

That brings me to the problems. Many of them are under capitalized builders. Others are unscrupulous builders. And then some are an acceptance by buyers of standards I don't understand. I'll start with one of the finest, most reputable builders, Nordhavn. They have the most accepting buyers in the world. When I hear of spending months and up to a year getting everything right, I'm appalled but their buyers accept that as the norm and love them and go back time after time. To me it's their commissioning program that doesn't involve all aspects of the build being done at the factory or prior to delivery. However, they are a bit the outlier here so not representative of anything other than themselves.

Now to the unscrupulous and financially troubled. These are builders who have a repeated pattern over decades and some over multiple ownerships. They have a litany of litigation. Yet, when they are criticized on a forum like this one, all hell breaks loose. There are those who have gotten excellent boats from them and I do understand their defense to a point but what other customers have been put through is not in any way defensible. Missing deadlines by more than a year isn't defensible. Delivering a boat that fails survey and has dozens of major issues and refusing to do anything about it, is not excusable. There's a Florida company that imports one of their brands and if one were just to see the dishonesty and lack of ethics of the principals by reading all the documents of one major lawsuit, I don't know how one could then choose to deal with them. Yes, they have happy owners, because the quality varies so from boat to boat.

There's a PNW builder that has been through many lives and again, just read the history in legal filings or talk to knowledgeable yards and industry people in the PNW and everything that happened was predictable and predicted.

There have been and are several Florida builders with a stream of unhappy customers. In some cases, they are fearful to speak for retaliation by the builder or lowering the resale value of their boat. They continue to lie and make promises they don't deliver on and refuse to address survey issues, yet they have a large contingency of people defending them.

Ultimately, I'll judge the Fluid issue of today based on how they handle problems, not on the basis of the fact customers who bought a Ranger years ago may be very happy.

Since Azimut was mentioned, they're an interesting study and I don't think a brand anyone here owns so stepping on no toes. Azimut is the entry, low cost boat of Benetti. They are sold based on styling and price, not quality of workmanship. However, their reputation in Europe is still very good. Meanwhile, no brand imported into the US has more haters than they do. Why is this? Because of two things. In the build, the electric and plumbing and other such work may be done by many different teams of employees or contractors and it seems is never quite the same. However, the big issue is that in the US, sales are by one organization and that organization is also 100% responsible for the warranty program. In fact, this organization is prepaid in essence for warranty work in what they pay for the boats so there is an incentive to spend as little as possible and no builder to then go to if dissatisfied. So, all the little annoying things of electrical and plumbing and electronics and cabinets and floor covering, simply do not get fixed in a timely manner. They are typically things that a good shipyard paid adequately could and would fix in one try.

Now, what can we do as buyers. Due diligence. Follow good solid business practices in our boat buying, don't fall in love and let our hopes and dreams overrule our judgement. I see intelligent, successful businessmen who run companies they own or are CEO of show absolutely horrible judgement in boat buying. They fall into a "got to have" mindset on one boat and ignore all signs. I've heard a thousand times here not to fall in love with a boat before you've checked it out completely. That's on used boats. Well, "don't fall in love with a new boat before you know everything possible about a builder and the model of boat in question." That one philosophy has saved us tremendous heartache and frustration. Before we owned any coastal boat, we quickly fell in love with one brand. We loved their larger boats and combination of speed and seagoing ability. We loved their boat for the loop and read of loopers in one. We were so disappointed then when researching the builder and seeing some of the problems. They are the type I would never deal with in business and would never purchase a boat from. Saved. Saved from the boat which on the internet and on paper and by design we loved. Then three of four years later, loved the Sea Ray L 650 flybridge. Even went on an extended demo of one with an owner of a large dealership we knew (who no longer is in the business having sold). Loved it even more. Everything we could want. Ready to purchase but a little more work to do first. One person we'd chatted briefly with was strongly encouraging us to buy one. He had one and other than a few issues he loved the boat. This is one of the strongest proponents of the boat and yet, I quote him when asked about his entire punch list, "Our punch list has had a total of about 160 items on it at some point." I ran as fast as I could. I do not have the tolerance for anything like that. I would have either made them take it back or quickly sold it. I couldn't deal with it. I know myself that well. I also find it horribly sad that any buyer would ever accept that.

See, ultimately, the builders are not the ones who set the standards in the industry unless you surrender and allow it. You and I set the standards of who we'll deal with and how, what we'll buy. There was a quite highly publicized disaster on one build. The behind the scenes of who pushed the boat, designed it, took over supervision was horrifying. The one person looking out for the buyer was fired along the way because he objected to some things. Now, the buyer. Owns a large family business and runs it very well. Sales over $100 million a year. Yet, he entered into the contract for a $5 million, changed to $6 million boat without having an attorney even read the contract. He fell in love. He never would have done that in business and would have terminated an employee who would have.

Each of us sets our own standards whether new boats or used, whether choosing a builder or broker. There are good ones. We choose. It's like Poker though we have to know when to walk away. I'm willing to walk away in business or pleasure. There's always another boat and another builder. We see on this site, excellence repeatedly from some rather small Chinese builders. Excellence is there but you must insist upon it.

Message to Fluid. It's not too late to fix this situation. Stop making it about the buyer. He may be horrible and litigious and may be unreasonable or anything else, I don't know and the boat buying public doesn't care. Make it about you. About your customer service. About your ethics and integrity. About your company. About your future as a builder. Tylenol didn't put poison in their pills but see, they didn't make it about the person who did. They chose to do what was right. The worst vendor problem I ever encountered was some bad yarn that we turned into bad fabric and bad finished product. The yarn vendor took care of everything completely and we temporarily stopped buying from them, but two years later they were by far our largest vendor. They had proven themselves in the worst of times. So far you've not handled any part of this well. Pointing fingers at the buyer will never get you anywhere. You don't control them. You only control what you do. Now you need to take action so magnanimous that everyone will be impressed. You need to see and examine the boat immediately. I know it's an expensive move and I know your insurance may not cover it. However, you want to rid the negative from this, you'd go buy the boat back tomorrow at full price and then you'd figure out the problem and publish honest findings. You also wouldn't lose $300k because once repaired you'd resell the boat so maybe half of that. $150k is a lot of money but isn't your reputation worth more? Now, I'm not a potential customer, but I could say right now I would not buy a boat from you or recommend one. However, you can change that. You can turn my opinion today to one where I'd say, "They had a major issue on a sinking but they bought the boat back and examined it. Ultimately, they found x y and z and they made changes to protect against future issues. They stand behind their product. I respect them." So far you've not written a very good story, but it's not to late for you to fix that. However, time is running out and time is of the essence.

 

[BandB]

I was writing while Fluid was doing the right thing. So simple and I praise them for finally taking control of their future. They followed my advice before I gave it. Now, follow through and be transparent, honest, and ethical.

 

[BandB]

Jeff has provided a further update on TugNuts that they are going to work together to resolve this situation.

"I had a good conversation with André, the owner of the 302. I apologized in the name of Fluid Motion and Port Boat House for not having picked up the phone sooner. We both agreed, that nothing would be gained by pointing fingers and a long legal battle. The boat will be coming back to the factory. Meanwhile, Andre has offered to take down his website.
Jeff Messmer
V.P Sales and Marketing
Ranger Tugs
25802 Pacific Hwy So.
Kent, Wa 98032
Phone 253 839 5213
Cell 206 940 0571
e-mail jeffmessmer@rangertugs.com"

The TugNuts • View topic - Total nightmare!!

So simple. Isn't it amazing what a phone call and apology can do. On behalf of the boating world, I thank you. Maybe a lesson learned too.

 

[BandB]

In the Internet Age, it is so much harder to avoid bad publicity when you deserve it, and frequently when you do not. Sounds like Andre' will be getting a new boat, or the existing one gutted and rebuilt. Now, if he had issues with the new build, one can only imagine what this one might look like.

When I contracted with a yard in Canada to install systems and cabinetry I designed or built for Delfin, I was there weekly but I also hired a surveyor to visit the yard once a month to inspect the work progress from his perspective. Might be an idea for Andre to consider the same approach.

Absolutely bad publicity spreads but look how quickly a better response did too. Now, everyone will follow along.

We did the same as you did on Delfin on two different builds, except surveyor was on site weekly.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Do the boatbuilders that use their dealers as the final assembly line and as their quality control offer significantly lower prices in exchange for the expense of hiring a surveyor, taking multiple trips to oversee construction and the months of not being able to use a new boat due to it being completed after delivery? In other words is it financially worth it, are the savings enough to offset the hassle?

 

[BandB]

Do the boatbuilders that use their dealers as the final assembly line and as their quality control offer significantly lower prices in exchange for the expense of hiring a surveyor, taking multiple trips to oversee construction and the months of not being able to use a new boat due to it being completed after delivery? In other words is it financially worth it, are the savings enough to offset the hassle?

When I said we had a surveyor on site weekly, that was at the builder. The builder did everything. We've never built a boat that was then shipped and commissioned by someone else or that equipment was added after it arrived. We did add some on the Sunseeker but we were modifying it. Mainly we were adding a hard top and enclosure and hinged tower and didn't like their hard top. Still that was all on us and at the boatyard we chose. We also completed it all in well under a month and had the boat available to use all but one week.

South Florida is unique in that many Asian and European builders have facilities here and their own sales forces but all construction done at the factory.

The Nordhavn approach seems quite unique in the amount of work done after it hits the US. Perhaps Twisted Tree or others can enlighten as to the process and reasons as they understand them.

I wouldn't think a dealer would do anything to a Cutwater other than add an accessory or something you decided you'd like to have. However, I don't know for certain.

 

[psneeld]

No, boats on the lot are generally complete, it's ordered ones, and usually ones trying to meet some buyers deadline for delivery that cause issues.

No need to hire a surveyor till acceptance day (week).

 

[BandB]

No, boats on the lot are generally complete, it's ordered ones, and usually ones trying to meet some buyers deadline for delivery that cause issues.

No need to hire a surveyor till acceptance day (week).

An interesting aside on the issue of commissioning as part of the build or after the build. The original purchaser of the first Nordhavn 120 was also considering a Westport. He actually toured Westport's at FLIBS accompanied by Nordhavn employees. Strangely his Purchase agreement with Nordhavn had many references to Westport Standards in it and the "Westport Experience." He sued PAE (and lost) over the fact they didn't provide this experience among other things. Now, much of the commissioning of the 120 was done before delivery since the boat was brought to North America by water. I find these references quite unusual and surprising as Nordhavn doesn't work like Westport and putting clauses in a contract won't change that.

Westport provides a package at the outset that includes every single item to go on the boat from Electronics to Dinghy to dishes and pots and pans to AV system to televisions. Every item to be done by the builder prior to delivery. It even includes linens and his and her bath robes. Everything is complete and on the boat when delivered. You show up and walk on your completed boat.

Another thing discussed was on time delivery. Westport delivers when promised at the outset. Not months late, not a week late. Their production planning and shop floor control is very similar to what you'd see in Boeing. Also, on budget. Because everything is specified up front, Westport is on budget. Westport may be the only builder their size always on time and budget.

Electronics package was specified as were many other things such as quality of carpentry and joinery to meet or exceed that which comes on a Westport 130. He referred to it as an "all in" approach.

Now understand the buyer had purchase 4 Nordhavn's in the past so loved their boats. However, on this boat he even provided Nordhavn with emails he'd received from Westport talking about their approach. He referred to it as "A painless way of delivering a vessel."

One of our esteemed colleagues here inspected the boat and found 179 deficiencies. There were also other inspections.

Now, I would say the expectations were unreasonable and agreeing to them was a huge mistake for Nordhavn. Westport is a "Yacht Builder" that operates a certain way. Nordhavn is a trawler or ship builder that operates a very different way. If you went to Westport and said I want to do it like Nordhavn and deliver the boat then add all the other things, they would tell you to get lost, or that you wanted to change the brand of generators, engines, watermaker, washer and dryer, and everything else. Anything problematic with a Westport post delivery, you just call them. Nordhavn commissioning though includes equipment and brands you chose and that was added after the boat arrived. Nordhavn allows you to choose infinitely. Westport has standard packages. Westport is going to have Furuno radars. Nordhavn will have whatever you select.

With it's size, i understand the buyer looking at it as he might look at a Westport 112 or 130 and I think many buyers would. I felt even building a 120 was a mistake by Nordhavn. They build boats up to 100' that some consider the best available for their mission, but plenty of builders build fine ocean capable boats at 120' and the buyer paying $16 and $20 million is going to compare to those boats and likely expect the finish and amenities.

Nordhavn builds many quality boats. Westport builds many quality boats. However, they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to schedule and delivery and commissioning and post delivery service. Everyone else is generally somewhere in the middle between the two of them.

Two very different approaches and both very successful companies.

 

[twistedtree]

I think the solution to the general decline in product quality lies in the mirror. We have become so accustom to accepting garbage, throwing out products when they break and just buying another, and rebooting or power cycling all our electronics devices to work around all the bugs in them.


As long as we accept it, it will keep happening. That's a big part of why I started the Wall of Shame section in my blog. If something sucks, post a review. If something works well, post a review. We have better tools than ever available to us to push back on poor quality. Darwin will take care of the rest.



When I was doing my electronics refit and still bumping into problems with various products, one day in frustration I decided on a two strike policy with marine electronics products. If I bought something and it didn't just work as it was supposed to, I would go through one round of calling tech support, downloading updates, or whatever to solve the problem. That's strike one. But if there are further problems, that's strike two and the product is gone, removed, packed up and returned for a refund. I just make sure I buy from resellers with good return policies. Returned junk on a manufacturer's doorstep will get their attention. And here's a hint. When you see a company selling a lot of factory refurbished product, that means a lot of people sent their products back, so watch out...


I've now extended the two strike policy to tradesmen, and other businesses. I'll chase someone down only once if they haven't shown up as agreed, done what they said they would do, etc. If it happens twice, they are done.


Now getting back to boats, I think the amount of attention and supervision that's required over a new boat really depends on what sort of a boat you are talking about. A true production boat I would expect something similar to buying a car. I would expect it to work out of the gate, and keep working with little to no trouble. We bought a 28' Grady a few years ago and that has been our experience with that boat. We bought a Back Cove 30' maybe 10 years ago, and had the same experience with that. I would expect the same of Cutwater.


The other extreme that I'm familiar with is building what is essentially a semi-custom boat, and a pretty complex one at that. It is best done, in my opinion with a lot of very close review and scrutiny. Now some people are less particular that I am, so are happier leaving decisions to the yard or designer, but I prefer to be intimately involved, and that's one of the things I like about working with Nordhavn. But I really don't think it's much different from building a truly custom home. I wouldn't dream of building a house without inspecting it on a regular basis, and doing a very thorough checkout before closing on it. And hiring help where my own skills need augmenting. I know lots of people, including myself, who hire Steve D'Antonio to help with their boat build. On bigger boats, it's often the captain or some other agent who is overseeing the build.


So I think there is a wide spectrum, and the import thing is understanding where your project fits on that spectrum so you can act accordingly. In the Cutwater case, I actually think the buyer's expectations were very reasonable, he had punch lists of things to fix, did a number of weeks of break-down runs, then headed off. Once he left the dealer's local area, I don't think he had any issues until the boat sank. But if I had the kinds of issues on our Grady that he had, I would have been very upset.


The big difference is that I have had zero issues with the Grady. And over the first three or so years of ownership, I got calls from Grady corporate at least once a year just checking in to see how everything was going and to see if I had any problems, questions, or if they could help in any way. A+ experience.

 

[twistedtree]

An interesting aside on the issue of commissioning as part of the build or after the build. The original purchaser of the first Nordhavn 120 was also considering a Westport. He actually toured Westport's at FLIBS accompanied by Nordhavn employees. Strangely his Purchase agreement with Nordhavn had many references to Westport Standards in it and the "Westport Experience." He sued PAE (and lost) over the fact they didn't provide this experience among other things. Now, much of the commissioning of the 120 was done before delivery since the boat was brought to North America by water. I find these references quite unusual and surprising as Nordhavn doesn't work like Westport and putting clauses in a contract won't change that.

Westport provides a package at the outset that includes every single item to go on the boat from Electronics to Dinghy to dishes and pots and pans to AV system to televisions. Every item to be done by the builder prior to delivery. It even includes linens and his and her bath robes. Everything is complete and on the boat when delivered. You show up and walk on your completed boat.

Another thing discussed was on time delivery. Westport delivers when promised at the outset. Not months late, not a week late. Their production planning and shop floor control is very similar to what you'd see in Boeing. Also, on budget. Because everything is specified up front, Westport is on budget. Westport may be the only builder their size always on time and budget.

Electronics package was specified as were many other things such as quality of carpentry and joinery to meet or exceed that which comes on a Westport 130. He referred to it as an "all in" approach.

Now understand the buyer had purchase 4 Nordhavn's in the past so loved their boats. However, on this boat he even provided Nordhavn with emails he'd received from Westport talking about their approach. He referred to it as "A painless way of delivering a vessel."

One of our esteemed colleagues here inspected the boat and found 179 deficiencies. There were also other inspections.

Now, I would say the expectations were unreasonable and agreeing to them was a huge mistake for Nordhavn. Westport is a "Yacht Builder" that operates a certain way. Nordhavn is a trawler or ship builder that operates a very different way. If you went to Westport and said I want to do it like Nordhavn and deliver the boat then add all the other things, they would tell you to get lost, or that you wanted to change the brand of generators, engines, watermaker, washer and dryer, and everything else. Anything problematic with a Westport post delivery, you just call them. Nordhavn commissioning though includes equipment and brands you chose and that was added after the boat arrived. Nordhavn allows you to choose infinitely. Westport has standard packages. Westport is going to have Furuno radars. Nordhavn will have whatever you select.

With it's size, i understand the buyer looking at it as he might look at a Westport 112 or 130 and I think many buyers would. I felt even building a 120 was a mistake by Nordhavn. They build boats up to 100' that some consider the best available for their mission, but plenty of builders build fine ocean capable boats at 120' and the buyer paying $16 and $20 million is going to compare to those boats and likely expect the finish and amenities.

Nordhavn builds many quality boats. Westport builds many quality boats. However, they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to schedule and delivery and commissioning and post delivery service. Everyone else is generally somewhere in the middle between the two of them.

Two very different approaches and both very successful companies.

Excellent points, and very much illustrates the spectrum, even within a similar size range.


I spent a bunch of time with Westport at FLIBS including touring I think 3 boats. They are very nicely done, but as you said, it's a "this is what you get" deal. And then you get it on time and on budget. I actually think that for a lot of the market for such a boat, perhaps the overwhelming majority of the market, that fits the customer's priorities. You are selling to people who expect execution to plan, and don't want complications. Plus, they are buying the living space and experience as a passenger, and likely don't care at all about crew accommodations, helm, boat operation, serviceability, equipment access, etc. The crew deals with that. I don't mean to be dissing it, just noting that Westport has addressed the market well.


But for a buyer who will be passenger, captain, crew, cook, mechanic, and deck hand, they will care deeply about the other aspects of a boat. I don't think I would ever end up with a Westport only because there is too much I'd want to change to suit my taste. But I'm a minority in that respect, I think.


Oh, and as an aside, I was on the Nordhavn 120 about a year ago to check out something in the pilot house as part of sorting out or 68 build. We were hosted by the second mate (captain was off for the day). He and the rest of the crew absolutely loved the boat, and couldn't stop saying so. It was really pleasant to hear after all the drama over it's initial ownership. You could write a great business school case study over that boat, or perhaps a dramatic novel I've talked to Dan Streech about it quite a bit and it is indeed quite a story, and fortunately one with a happy ending.

 

[twistedtree]

Do the boatbuilders that use their dealers as the final assembly line and as their quality control offer significantly lower prices in exchange for the expense of hiring a surveyor, taking multiple trips to oversee construction and the months of not being able to use a new boat due to it being completed after delivery? In other words is it financially worth it, are the savings enough to offset the hassle?

I don't know of anyone who does this, at least not as you describe.


I think it's quite common for boats to be built without things like electronics, entertainment system, carpet, shades and curtains, tenders, canvass, liferafts, dive compressors, etc. All that gets done as part of commissioning.


Now all those things can be part of the purchase agreement, so all need to be complete before you take final delivery, but I think it's common for them to get done at the point of delivery, not at the factory. When we built our 60, it was done very much like this. After the boat arrived at the delivery port, various sub contractors set about doing all the above, and we didn't close the deal until it was all done, working, and accepted. Now a significant part of the electronics was pre-installed at the factory, but it was per the design that we had contracted, not some pre-determined package. And of course the boat was checked out functionally as well, through it was also tested, including tank testing at the factory.


Electronics, including entertainment systems, can be a 1-2 month project alone. Even with all major components pre-installed by the yard, it still took two guys the better part of a month to finish our electronics package. And many buyers don't install any electronics at the yard for fear of it becoming obsolete before they take delivery. That just extends the job further.

 

[BruceK]

This is a naive expectation. If you aren't willing and able to do the survey yourself, hire someone who is. Most of the items on the original list as well as what likely sunk the boat should have been caught by even a cursory survey. As Reagan said: "Trust, but verify."

The production boating industry isn't as bad as the RV industry - yet - but they seem to be headed that direction. In many modern products, the customer serves as the QA department. Most computer software packages are a case in point. You really can't compare a production boat to a production car. The Cutwater 30 is built in small prototype quantities, even considering its entire production life. Prototype cars would have these problems too. When you build 100,000 or 1M of something, by the time you've built the first thousand or so, you have the kinks worked out.

So, assume the new boat costing 300-400K is a POS until proven otherwise by survey? And then, like on this thread, argue about the competence of the surveyor. Maybe get him "surveyed" too?
A disappointing judgment of your builders. Not my idea of how a product should be taken to market. A sad commentary, but reality for USA/Canada it seems.A solution may be never buying new,but waiting for the"prototype" to go through it`s shakedown period with the unfortunate unwitting first owner. Perhaps not doing that that was the purchasers error.

 

[BandB]

I think it's quite common for boats to be built without things like electronics, entertainment system, carpet, shades and curtains, tenders, canvass, liferafts, dive compressors, etc. All that gets done as part of commissioning.

We've never purchased a boat that needed commissioning to be ready to go. Electronics, entertainment, carpet, shades, curtains, all done at the factory. We had things to do on the Sunseeker because we wanted a custom top and an additional generator plus a different watermaker than what they offered.

Just a difference in builders and type boats. Commissioning was a foreign concept to me until talking to other buyers.

 

[deepblue]

Sounds fishy....all marinas require insurance.

 

[BandB]

Sounds fishy....all marinas require insurance.

Perhaps you might want to rewrite with a word other than "all" because "all" do not. Many do, most in some areas. Plus he is on a lake and I don't recall ever getting asked about it on a lake.

 

[ssobol]

This reminds me of how the US auto industry operated in the 60s and 70s.

A part of the was the manufacturer mindset--their "customer" wasn't the purchaser but rather the dealer. The manufacturer had no real desire to talk to, or interest in the opinions of, the final purchaser of the vehicle. Once they got the dealer to accept the vehicle their part of the transaction was considered complete.

This is because the dealers got together and got the laws written so that if you want to buy a car in the US you HAVE to buy through a dealer. The factory is not allowed to sell to the general public directly. Still can't, the dealers would have a fit.

Tesla found this out when they wanted to sell direct to the user (like happens in most other high tech industries).

Granted the factory would rather deal with limited entities that are ordering many vehicles at once on a regular basis vs. individuals buying one unit at a time.

 

[BruceK]

Sounds fishy....all marinas require insurance.

I thought it was privately berthed.
What sounds "fishy"? Can`t be "an insurance job". A plot to attack the builder? Any other conspiracy theory?

 

[twistedtree]

This is because the dealers got together and got the laws written so that if you want to buy a car in the US you HAVE to buy through a dealer. The factory is not allowed to sell to the general public directly. Still can't, the dealers would have a fit.

Tesla found this out when they wanted to sell direct to the user (like happens in most other high tech industries).

Granted the factory would rather deal with limited entities that are ordering many vehicles at once on a regular basis vs. individuals buying one unit at a time.

That's by law? I never knew that, and always took the whole dealer distribution model as a business decision, not something mandated.


Would you have any guidance on where such a law might be found? I'd be interested to read it.

 

[firstbase]

That's by law? I never knew that, and always took the whole dealer distribution model as a business decision, not something mandated.


Would you have any guidance on where such a law might be found? I'd be interested to read it.

I believe it is a state by state decision. If a manufacturer is willing to limit its dealerships in the state to a minimum number then it can sell directly to the public. Search for the Tesla case as that has more specific info on the exacts.

 

[Donsan]

I believe it is a state by state decision. If a manufacturer is willing to limit its dealerships in the state to a minimum number then it can sell directly to the public. Search for the Tesla case as that has more specific info on the exacts.

My understanding also. It certainly helps the dealers sell autos, but it comes at the cost of maintaining expensive showrooms, inventories and a service department.

 

[firstbase]

My understanding also. It certainly helps the dealers sell autos, but it comes at the cost of maintaining expensive showrooms, inventories and a service department.

Personally the lower price brought about by losing the dealer profit (simplistic approach but you get the point) is not worth losing the dealer service departments. I guess a manufacturer would use a fleet management concept where you take the vehicle to any number of "approved" service agents and show them your customer card or whatever. Would rather take it back to where I bought it who are more interested in my satisfaction and what I am going to do 3 years down there road. Sorry for the pun and thread drift. Back to the subject at hand!

 

[danderer]

Granted the factory would rather deal with limited entities that are ordering many vehicles at once on a regular basis vs. individuals buying one unit at a time.

That really was the point I was trying to make. Management of the US auto firms spoke freely (internally) that they simply wanted to keep the dealers happy. What the end-user/purchaser thought wasn't their concern or problem. Ultimately that didn't work out so well.

 

[sunchaser]

All the big yacht and auto discussion aside, best we not lose sight of the arena the thread involves. An unusual by industry standards outboard setup on a brand new vessel that indeed took on water and floundered. Fortunately at the dock with no one aboard.

IMHO, Cutwater and Ranger Tug have to do a fairly substantial out board re-design. If they sell their vessels to accomplish serious off shore work they should design their aft section accordingly.

For those so interested, possibly the best NA in this area is Michael Peters. Read about his history. His recent outboard creations for Beneteau are very interesting.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

For the record, here's what ABYC has to say about bilge pump installations...

22.8.6 The discharge location shall be above the maximum heeled waterline, or
22.8.7 the discharge may be located below the maximum heeled waterline if the discharge line is provided with both of the following:
22.8.7.1 a seacock installed in accordance with the requirements of ABYC H-27, Seacocks, Thru-Hull Connections, and Drain Plugs, and
22.8.7.2 a vented loop or other means to prevent siphoning into the boat. A check valve shall not be used for this purpose.

On the subject of surveys, I inspect both new and used vessels on a regular basis (by choice, and for several reasons, I'm not a surveyor). A few observations, there are great quality boats and terrible quality boats coming out of almost every US state, Canadian province and country that builds recreational vessels, painting with a broad brush is simply inaccurate.

Even the best boat builders make mistakes, so surveying a new vessel makes good sense, I have yet to inspect a new (or used) vessel that was defect-free.

Since one of my reports was mentioned earlier by a member, I'll comment on this as well. This link https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/sample-inspection-reports/ includes sample inspection reports of mine (from actual inspections), one on a new vessel, the other used. These are larger, more complex vessels, the volume of issues is typically directly connected to vessel size and complexity, however, both the severity and volume of defects most definitely varies from builder to builder.

Another note on ABYC compliance, many builders participate in a voluntary ABYC compliance program administered by the National Marine Manufacturers Association or NMMA. This article describes the program https://issuu.com/spinsheetpublishingcompany/docs/nov_pt_2016/50 The inspections associated with participation in this program are 'type inspections' meaning an example model is inspected by an NMMA inspector, and once it passes, the builder then agrees to build every one of that model just like the one that was inspected. That can be a tall order for some builders, as some changes almost always creep in. I don't believe I've ever inspected an NMMA certified vessel that didn't have at least some ABYC violations. The good news is once found, it's difficult for the participating builder to argue over whether or not these need to be corrected. Did I mention surveying a new vessel is a good idea?

 

[Seevee]

Interesting comments about buying new boats and surveys.

For "me", I've never bought a new anything, except houses that I have built. With toys like boats, cars and planes, I like to let someone else take the depreciation hit and get a proven product that has been pretty much broken in.

Also, if one really gets a used lemon as opposed to a new lemon, the hit is MUCH less.

As for surveys, I could argue that anyone purchasing this kind of stuff get to know enough about boats to do a pretty good "due diligence" prior to even signing a purchase agreement or having a survey. The survey should be to just verify what you already know and perhaps find a few unknowns that need attention. I've never turned down a boat because of a survey, except one. But turned down many because of my inspections.

Now, BandB, you have some interesting posts about quality, would be nice to know what boats are quality, in your mind. And most of the boats you mention in the 5 million and up are not boats this group will typically buy, especially me. Just getting too big to fit behind my home and I don't want a boat that I can't see every day.

Speaking of quality, the only boat I've owned that had outstanding quality was a Formula. However, the Volvo engines were a disaster and the reason i got rid of it.