Thoughts on Detroit 4-53N

[Taras]

Hi All,
A friend of mine is considering a boat with twin Detroit 4-53 naturals in it (approx 2500 hours each) (vintage late 70's) and wanted my opinion on these motors. I know 2 cycle is old tech but I also know that these are reliable.
My questions are:
1). Do these 2 cycle motors face possible "phase out" by various green states? Is it possible that owners maybe forced to replace these motors with more Tier compliant motors?
2). Are parts getting harder and harder to get for these old motors?
3). Considering a well maintained and normally operated motor, how many hours will these motors typically provide before major overhaul?

Thanks for your input as I'd like to give my newbie friend good advice.

Taras

 

[Lepke]

Can't comment on future laws, depends on how effective Chicken Little is.


Parts are easily available. If not Detroit, many others make overhaul parts. I could give you a list of places to get parts. 1000s, maybe millions of DD engines are being used in 3rd world places where they eat the chicken. There are still NOS parts on places like ebay. No issue finding engine machine shops that can rebuild the head, injectors, etc.

Natural DDs with good maintenance go 20k hours and more. Turbo engines 6k to10k with good maintenance and a wise operator.
But you can't let the average marina mechanic work on these engines. Maybe change oil. It's best to acquire a service manual and do your own adjustments. But mechanical adjustments last for a long time, just like valves.

Been running my own DDs since 1961, also for others, navy, & commercial fishing. Rebuilding and overhauling for 50 years.

 

[Comodave]

The laws about replacing engines, to my understanding, relate to commercial boats where the hours are in the thousands each year. At least that was what it was in California back when I was thinking about repowering a boat.

The 4-53s should run just about forever if you maintain them properly. Parts are readily available and relatively cheap since there are/were so many of them around.

 

[rslifkin]

Non commercial boats are a small enough drop in the bucket that it's unlikely anyone will force retirement of older engines. That rarely happens outside of commercial applications where usage is far higher.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Paint it yellow and call it a Caterpillar.

 

[rgano]

The noise from those old monsters is enough to ruin a nice day underway on a pleasure craft.

 

[mvweebles]

Interesting article on California proposed rules to force small charter boats (day-fishing, whale watching, etc.) to get rid of their old diesels. Older article.

https://www.latimes.com/business/st...egulator-sport-fishing-whale-excursions-rules

Crazy claims on both sides.

From the regulators:

"One sport-fishing boat generates about as much pollution as 162 five-year-old school buses, the state agency says........"The proposed regulation is estimated to avoid 531 premature deaths, 161 hospital admissions and 236 hospital visits over the next decade or so, according to the Air Resources Board. "

From the operators:

"Many wood and fiberglass boats — the majority of excursion boats in the state — can’t accommodate the proposed new engines and filters, and so must be replaced with metal vessels that cost $2 million to $5 million, according to state officials and boat owners. Boat owners say the engines, called Tier 3 and Tier 4, and filters are too large and heavy, and generate so much heat that they can’t be installed in most existing vessels.

"They also say that the required particulate filter can get clogged under certain conditions, forcing boat captains to cut the engines and let the boat drift while the crew tries to unclog the filter."

 

[rslifkin]

I haven't heard of anyone trying to use a DPF in a marine application, so I'm not sure where some of that discussion is coming from.

 

[Arc]

Loud , leaky and stinky. But damn reliable

 

[tiltrider1]

I like 4-53. While considered a consumable I really like 400 hp 4-53. I like that you can get after market parts.

Some complain about the noise but cheap ain’t free.

I can think of a lot worse diesels in the world than dd 4-53’s.

 

[Comodave]

They are noisy but it is a throaty sound and IMO not annoying.

 

[Insequent]

The OP was looking for thoughts. Mine are that the prospective buyer do a sea trial adequate enough to run at normal rpm and WOT for a period of time. Then make a decision whether they can live with the noise, or not. As others have said they will be fine for performance and R&M.

I recall one TF member posting that he had a pair of 4-53's in a Hatteras and needed to wear earmuffs at the helm. That would be a show-stopper for me. Industrial deafness is a risk if his cruising plans involved running for more than a couple of hours a day. Of course the PO may have taken steps to minimise the problem, but they can't get to where a good installation of a decent 4 stroke diesel sits these days.

 

[Comodave]

We had 6-53 s in a previous boat. I would suspect they are about as noisy as 4-53s. They were noisy but not objectionable in the salon, certainly not like I needed earmuffs. Everyone’s perception is different and it may depend on the boat.

 

[PierreR]

I have 4-53N's in my Hatteras and I do not find them to be really loud. The exhaust is throaty but that can be changed with exhaust piping and a different muffler system.
Quite tolerable in the salon.

 

[twistedtree]

Get a Deere 4045, remove the muffler and pour a quart of oil over the engine and call it a DD 4-53.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

They don't call them "Screaming, Green Leakers" for nothing.

pete

 

[Comodave]

They don't call them "Screaming, Green Leakers" for nothing.

pete

Yes. I used to go in WMP and buy all the oil absorbent pads they had on the shelf. Every 24 running hours we had to add a gallon of oil to each engine. But they always started and just ran and ran.

 

[dannc]

I haven't heard of anyone trying to use a DPF in a marine application, so I'm not sure where some of that discussion is coming from.

My understanding is that commercial vessels using engines with 600KW/805HP have to be Tier 4 for a new boat or if replacing engines.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-10-02/pdf/2020-18621.pdf

EPA’s 2008 Final Rule for Control of Emissions of Air Pollution from
Locomotive Engines and Marine Compression-Ignition Engines Less than
30 Liters per Cylinder adopted Tier 4 emission standards for commercial
marine diesel engines at or above 600 kilowatts (kW) (73 FR 37096, June 30,
2008). These standards, which were expected to require the use of exhaust
aftertreatment technology, phased in from 2014 to 2017, depending on engine
power.1

A complicating factor for pilot boats is other federal, state, or local programs that impose speed restrictions on vessels for certain vessel lengths. Specifically, pilot boats that operate in certain coastal areas are subject to whale-strike avoidance rules that are designed to protect migrating and calving right whales. In designated areas off the coast of Georgia, for example, vessels 65 feet and longer may not exceed an operating speed of 10 knots from November 1 to April 30 each year.3 The whale-strike avoidance rules increase the demand for pilot boats that are less than 65 feet long. This additional constraint further complicates the challenge to design vessels with Tier 4 engines as the SCR emission control system takes up a significant amount of already limited space. Here again, the use of Tier 4 engines will require significant boat changes and more time is needed to resolve these challenges.

If the engines are having to use DPF they will need the tankage to hold the DPF which is another space issue.

Later,
Dan

 

[rslifkin]

In the locomotive world, some Tier 4 stuff meets the requirement with just EGR, while others uses SCR / Urea. But none of them are using DPFs.

It also makes far more sense to say "if you're already replacing an engine you need to upgrade" than to force replacement of in service engines not due for replacement.

 

[PierreR]

Yes. I used to go in WMP and buy all the oil absorbent pads they had on the shelf. Every 24 running hours we had to add a gallon of oil to each engine. But they always started and just ran and ran.

Your scaring me. A GALLON! So far, I have not noticed much oil usage on my 4-53N's , mine don't leak and there is no smoke at startup. Your making me feel like a kid that's gonna get a lickin but does not know when or how hard it will be.

 

[Comodave]

They ran great, just leaked and burned some oil. I bought it in 5 gallon buckets. The bilge was very filthy with oil sludge. Apparently the PO didn’t care. It took me a long time to get all the oil out of the cracks and crevices. Much easier to just use oil absorbing pads proactively and not let it get all over everywhere.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Nobody can make a private owner change out their engine just to make code.

Commercial, maybe, but not private. You are "grandfathered in"

pete

 

[fgarriso]

I have a pair of DD 6-71 with 1200 hours on them after a full rebuild. So far haven't had any noticeable oil leaks but the noise issue is real as compaired to CATs.

 

[RichardM]

DD are great engines. Not the most fuel efficient around but very reliable and extremely easy to fix, maintain and adjust. That is a definite advantage. I have 6V92s in my boat and they don’t leak. Yeah sometimes you have to change a gasket but that’s normal maintenance on any engine. They were leaky in the 60s and 70s when they use to dump the air box sludge on the road but that’s been eliminated for a long time. As for the noise, that really depends on your setup. Noise level on my boat is very decent. The only problem with those engine is finding a decent mechanic that actually knows what he’s doing. Not easy as they are ll retired. Don’t just let anybody work on them. And if you do, read the manual first so you can evaluate how clueless the guy is… lol. So like other have said before, I got the service manual and learned how to do it.

 

[hollywood8118]

Your scaring me. A GALLON! So far, I have not noticed much oil usage on my 4-53N's , mine don't leak and there is no smoke at startup. Your making me feel like a kid that's gonna get a lickin but does not know when or how hard it will be.

Don't let one person's experience be all you listen to.
There are plenty of 4-53's out there that don't : scream, leak, belch smoke" etc. In most trawlers that have them they are run at reasonable rpm's and will run forever. If the motor is bumped up with fueling, turbo's and run at the pins that is a different thing.


That they are still in some boats that are sought after and have not been swapped out says something about how most of them work.


As for parts a quick search shows complete rebuild kits with pistons and liners for around $ 1000.00. About a reasonable of a rebuild as you could possibly find


HOLLYWOOD

 

[Lepke]

Detroit Diesels don't need to leak. If gaskets were properly installed and rotating shafts are inspected for pitting and repaired if necessary, there are no leaks. Engines with high hours and worn out bores will pass some oil into the air box. But the air box drain can be plumbed and connected to a can.

 

[Taras]

The feedback from all of you has been very enlightening. Thank you all for responding. I do appreciate the feedback as I've never owned a boat with Detroits.
Thank you

 

[Comodave]

Detroit Diesels don't need to leak. If gaskets were properly installed and rotating shafts are inspected for pitting and repaired if necessary, there are no leaks. Engines with high hours and worn out bores will pass some oil into the air box. But the air box drain can be plumbed and connected to a can.

On a previous boat there was a coating of oil around the engine room from the air box vents. The mechanic ran small hoses from the vents on the air boxes to a fuel filter housing without a filter in it. Then left one fitting off the housing to let the air out. The air coming out of the air boxes would blow into the filter housing and the oil would stick to the housing and collect in it. Every 25 hours of running I would drain the housing and get maybe about 8 ounces of oil out of it. Then no more oil around the engine room. Cheap and simple fix.

 

[bhumphrys]

I have 6v-71 Detroits. From the outside, not any louder than my boat neighbor’s Cummins. Inside, no issues with noise either. Must be exhaust piping and insulation.

As for leaks, I get 1 drop from each engine every 3 hours. Different spots though. There is a system you can install to help with leaks. Can’t recall the name at the moment but mine has it.

Overall, I love my DDs. Incredibly reliable. I would like better fuel economy but I only run 100-200 hours per year so it isn’t that much of an issue.

 

[sean9c]

I had a 6v-53, sure it leaked a little but didn't burn much oil. Guessing that there was something wrong with yours.

Yes. I used to go in WMP and buy all the oil absorbent pads they had on the shelf. Every 24 running hours we had to add a gallon of oil to each engine. But they always started and just ran and ran.