Three million gallons of raw sewage spilled in Seattle

[dhays]

Why bother fining a city a huge amount when you know that just falls back on the taxpayers who are not at fault. Their should be some kind of liability though, maybe public flogging of those responsible.

Ultimately, it is the county citizens that are at fault. They elect their county council. They have to approve taxes/rates to upgrade the sewage systems. If they don’t pay, then they have no reason to care.

 

[kthoennes]

Ultimately, it is the county citizens that are at fault. They elect their county council. They have to approve taxes/rates to upgrade the sewage systems. If they don’t pay, then they have no reason to care.

That response assumes that throwing yet more money at the systems will prevent the discharges and overflows. In other words the public is too cheap so they get sewage in their waterways. Can't possibly have anything to do with poor engineering and poor capital project management and poor maintenance.

 

[sdowney717]

Ultimately, it is the county citizens that are at fault. They elect their county council. They have to approve taxes/rates to upgrade the sewage systems. If they don’t pay, then they have no reason to care.

Even a delegated authority is still responsible for their actions, a leadership failure.
These technocrats also pass these laws, so goes back to them too.

 

[FF]

" In other words the public is too cheap so they get sewage in their waterways. Can't possibly have anything to do with poor engineering and poor capital project management and poor maintenance."

Standard buroRat response , its YOUR fault, for not funding (fill in the blank) enough.

Selling the " fill in the blank" Ratworks to a company that is responsible is a solution, but difficult politically.Because they might make (gasp) a profit for their efforts..

 

[kchace]

Here in the NE where many municipalities have the storm drains connected to the sewer systems they have overflows of raw or partially treated sewage EVERY time it rains hard. Last year the 30 or so large cities that use the Merrimack River as both outflow and a source of drinking water had combined sewage releases of over 800 million gallons! They have waivers from the EPA because it simply takes so much time and money to fix. We're fighting with them now just to Get them to tell us quickly when this happens.

Ken

 

[sunchaser]

Who have been dumping sewage into the waterways for too long. I used to live there. Don't much like the East Coast - Sorry - raised in Oregon where people have cared about their surroundings for some time now.

Portland area’s raw sewage discharges are not uncommon when area tributaries flooding and shutdowns of treatment systems occurs. . Orefornia’s degree of public concern for waterways vs reality pretty well mirrors WA and CA.

Floods around any coastal city result in some sewage discharge. Add in poor operations and voila. Some say pot has the ability to alter reality.

Not to mention Victoria’s open dumping into Juan de Fuca forever. BTW, get ready, WA feels USCG is too lenient on maritime pollution and is seeking primary jurisdiction in Puget Sound.

 

[ktdtx]

I don't think Vibrio can be directly blamed on the fecal content of the water


https://www.chesapeakebay.net/news/blog/five_facts_about_vibrio

 

[syjos]

I have no problem with boaters releasing untreated sewage while underway, a distance away from shore. The sewage is spread over a large area, quickly diluting it, away from shore. Tide flushes it out to the Pacific in a week.

It's not like all the boats dump sewage at the same place and at the same time. Boaters sewage is miniscule compared to these accidental concentrated municipal sewage releases, which seem to occur with more frequency. Add the release of sewage from failed septic systems near shore, farm animal waste into creeks and rivers and industrial pollution. But boaters are the prime culprit for sewage discharge regulations.

We lived on a bay that had a sewage treatment outfall. We used to see massive number of clams, cockles and geoducks on the beach. Somewhere in the 80's, secondary treatment was installed at the waste plant where the outfall was to be 95% pure water. The number of shellfish in the bay decreased significantly in about 5 years.

I do have a problem with boaters releasing sewage in anchorages, bays, harbors, marinas and shallow water.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't think Vibrio can be directly blamed on the fecal content of the water


https://www.chesapeakebay.net/news/blog/five_facts_about_vibrio

Yes, some bacteria are more dangerous, but say you get sick a little with ecoli, or some virus, and it weakens your immune system. Then your more susceptible to getting a flesh eating disease. It may be that you dont even know your sick with some minor bug, but it has used up your immune system so your more vulnerable.

 

[ksanders]

I've seen several reports over the years, but I don't know which one you're referring to, so I don't know if I've seen that one. If you have a copy, I'd appreciate your sending me one...I can send you my email address via PM.

The major flaw in most of the reports is that they use the standard set forth in the CFR--a max bacteria count of 1000/100 ml--when the ACTUAL bacteria count from two of the only 3 treatment devices made in the US (Raritan LectraSan/ElectroScan and PuraSan) is <10/100 ml and is -0- from Groco ThermoPure.

If those who tested the Groco didn't get that result, it's most likely because they didn't know how it works. It uses heat to kill bacteria, so requires both 115v/AC power for the heater and DC power for the overboard pump. Plus, unlike the Raritan devices, it's fairly complex and takes a LOT of time to treat completely, plus it's VERY expensive...making it really only suitable on boats 40'+. You can read all about how it has to work here Groco Thermopure-2 Owners Manual and pay close attention to the Treatment Capacity section.

So if the EPA used the ThermoPure as the basis for making ANY waters a NDZ, they based it on a device that's unlikely to be installed on even as many as .5% (that's 1/2 of 1%) of boats in the whole US...fewer 5% have any treatment device!

--Peggie

Here’s a link

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...ge&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL

 

[Sea Q]

Once you get older you may realize many things people promote as good are simply frauds. NDZ is one, another is recycling. Most people put things in the recycling bin thinking they get recycled, but not anymore. And honestly what did China actually do with it?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html

Sorted 10 % good stuff and burned the rest to generate power
and that smoke now blows towards Calf.

 

[88FuHwa]

A cable news channel is reporting that there are 60,000 homeless folks living on the streets of Los Angeles. Their feces, urine and Lord knows what else are on a daily basis washed into the storm drains which empty out in the ocean. Imagine if a small city of 60,000 inhabitants wanted to dump their untreated sewage into an ocean or bay? Beaches in Southern California are now routinely closed to swimmers because of pollution.
Boaters are easy targets and are perceived to have deep pockets.

 

[Sea Q]

Then you have this that goes in to storm run off

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...umber-human-waste-San-Franciscos-streets.html

 

[catalinajack]

A cable news channel is reporting that there are 60,000 homeless folks living on the streets of Los Angeles. Their feces, urine and Lord knows what else are on a daily basis washed into the storm drains which empty out in the ocean. Imagine if a small city of 60,000 inhabitants wanted to dump their untreated sewage into an ocean or bay? Beaches in Southern California are now routinely closed to swimmers because of pollution.
Boaters are easy targets and are perceived to have deep pockets.

And this why I believe many boaters pump overboard on occasion with nary any guilt.

 

[sdowney717]

And this why I believe many boaters pump overboard on occasion with nary any guilt.

For the number of boaters truly that is a tiny drop in a huge ocean.
And then think of the marine mammals and fish, they dont wear diapers.

 

[Fugly]

. Imagine if a small city of 60,000 inhabitants wanted to dump their untreated sewage into an ocean or bay? .

Victoria, B.C. (pop.86,000) hasn't had a waster treatment facility. Federal (Canadian) laws require a wastewater treatment plant by the end of 2020.

Seattle's been pissed (no pun intended) for years.

Pross and cons in this article (including... 'it's fine, leave it as is .."the ocean's strong tidal currents are naturally decomposing what is in the wastewater. He (Prof. Pedersen) adds it is one of the very few spots in the world where it is safe to dispose of sewage this way."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...ment-plant-construction-regulations-1.5123974

 

[OldDan1943]

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...l-into-puget-sound-leading-to-beach-closures/

How long would it take for recreational boaters to pump over that much? Like 100 years?

"Government officials investigating...."

"What happened, Ernie?" "Oh, you know, the power went out, so it all just goes into the sound...."

Maybe the gubmint should have spent their time and money insuring the safety of treatment plants instead of recreational boating.

Great time to flush out your sanitary tank. Your luck, you would get caught and get a ticket.
I could be very wrong, isn't time they set a schedule to test the back up system?

 

[BruceK]

It`s fairly obvious that disposal of waste, both directly from humans, and the waste they create, like plastics, diapers, and similar, has increased beyond Govt. ability to deal with it. Both Canada and Australia have had exported rubbish returned from other countries. Imo it`s a predictable consequence of world population doubling in the last 50 years. Output from private pleasure boats is minuscule by comparison, and it is hypocritical of Govts to dump (pun intended) on boaters when Govt and the general population they represent is the major problem. Not even Lectrasan type treated output is accepted here.

 

[Action]

Interesting!

If a boater spills the fine came from that boater. Who is more than likely a resident and tax payer and boater of the State of Washington.
If King County pays a fine to the state, the money came from the Washington tax payer who may be a boater and just as likely not.

If a fish discharges, well there isn't a payment, but there still is untreated sewage.

Man I guess crap happens.

 

[rgano]

Someone on another forum posted something to a thread about the Puget Sound spill I hadn't ever thought about: If you have a raw water toilet and are in waters impacted by a spill, you're pulling that sewage into your toilet. hoses and holding tank every time you flush the toilet.


--Peggie

and washing down your anchor and fore deck, etc, etc

 

[ktdtx]

So-you hurry to a pump out station and empty your boat's black tanks
The pump out station is emptied by truck or barge.
They take it to a government sewage facility where...


every now & then they pump it back into the ocean

 

[AusCan]

The system is far from perfect. Municipal sewage treatment plants struggle to keep up with growing population. It will take huge amounts of money to upgrade sewage treatment plants to an acceptable level and separate the storm water systems from the sewage systems.
Most voters won't accept the tax increases required to dothe upgrades in the short term. Still there is pressure for governments to do something, so soft targets that don't cost the government bodies anything get hit (such as boaters).
That's democracy in action. No easy answers, folks.

 

[Action]

I may be out of line …..
And I don't think anyone expects perfection.

But in a county that has about 2.2 million people
And collects $4.3 billion dollars of revenue annually or almost $2000 for every human being that lives in the county - EVERY YEAR.
https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/fi...18-comprehensive-annual-financial-report.ashx

That the county could at least swing an emergency generator to handle the crap when it starts flying.

Because with 2300 square miles of the Puget Sound as a newly designated NDZ since last year, potentially that puts a target on every recreational boat to be stopped and boarded and fined just for not removing the handle of a seacock. Or providing some other acceptable method of complying with a government law. https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shorelines/Puget-Sound/No-discharge-zone

Mean while the same water treatment facility has a second discharge in two years releasing millions of gallons of waste water.

Sorry I am a bit jaded when it comes to the government enacting laws for the tax payer to obey and the same government has problems complying with the law on it's own. And what ever the fix or fine for that same county waste treatment plant has to do, all costs including the fine if that applies will ultimately be paid by the tax payer.

To put a post script to the statement above from HeadMistress where boater uses fresh water pick up to flush the head, which comes with the bonus of untreated waste water from the county. Don't forget the tax payers of King county paid for that fresh water! Flush wisely.

 

[markpierce]

Can hardly remember voting for any local representative who won. No public official represents my interests.

 

[sdowney717]

I may be out of line …..
And I don't think anyone expects perfection.

But in a county that has about 2.2 million people
And collects $4.3 billion dollars of revenue annually or almost $2000 for every human being that lives in the county - EVERY YEAR.
https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/fi...18-comprehensive-annual-financial-report.ashx

That the county could at least swing an emergency generator to handle the crap when it starts flying.

Because with 2300 square miles of the Puget Sound as a newly designated NDZ since last year, potentially that puts a target on every recreational boat to be stopped and boarded and fined just for not removing the handle of a seacock. Or providing some other acceptable method of complying with a government law. https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shorelines/Puget-Sound/No-discharge-zone

Mean while the same water treatment facility has a second discharge in two years releasing millions of gallons of waste water.

Sorry I am a bit jaded when it comes to the government enacting laws for the tax payer to obey and the same government has problems complying with the law on it's own. And what ever the fix or fine for that same county waste treatment plant has to do, all costs including the fine if that applies will ultimately be paid by the tax payer.

To put a post script to the statement above from HeadMistress where boater uses fresh water pick up to flush the head, which comes with the bonus of untreated waste water from the county. Don't forget the tax payers of King county paid for that fresh water! Flush wisely.

They designated Puget sound a NDZ, so where do they pump all out all the sewage effluent now? Some place nearby? It all goes into the water, and then mixes with all the other waters. I dont think you can escape impacting other waters, NDZ is just being politically correct to fool people who think what a great simple solution to the problem.

 

[Action]

They designated Puget sound a NDZ, so where do they pump all out all the sewage effluent now? Some place nearby? It all goes into the water, and then mixes with all the other waters. I dont think you can escape impacting other waters, NDZ is just being politically correct to fool people who think what a great simple solution to the problem.

See post 50

 

[Sea Q]

not on our doorstep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=169&v=IqP49quw-yo


checkout video how recycled plastic is used in other country's

 

[Action]

I have been to several Asian and African countries. (not as a tourist as a relief worker) The video paints the picture that the people are innocent and don't know any better. And education is the solution.

That may be true for some and for a significant number of people in Asia they consider trash a resource and for economic reasons and welcome trash from other countries. Typically the other country will pay to take the trash. And when some one is wondering if they will eat today, the recycling just isn't a thought that is a consideration.

Then there is this NY times article from last year.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html
However I fear we (Or I am) off topic.

 

[dhays]

They designated Puget sound a NDZ, so where do they pump all out all the sewage effluent now? Some place nearby? It all goes into the water, and then mixes with all the other waters. I dont think you can escape impacting other waters, NDZ is just being politically correct to fool people who think what a great simple solution to the problem.

When we pumpout our holding tanks, that sewage is treated by local sewage systems. After treatment, the effluent is discharged into Puget Sound. All the NDZ designation did was to prohibit vessels from treating the sewage onboard and then discharging it.

An NDZ could make sense for certain areas of Puget Sound or for certain classes of boats. For example, the large cruise ships that may only just meet the MSD Type II bacterial count standard of 200 per 1,000 ml. The standard for most boats like ours for a MSD 1 is 5 times as high which is much higher than FUNCTIONING municipal treatment plants.

However, my understanding is that treatment systems such as sold by Raritan for boats like are, far exceed the MSD I standards. However, an EPA study that I saw showed mixed results. However, the study design seemed extremely flawed.

So, preventing direct, overboard discharge of sewage is a good thing. Making all of the US Salish Sea an NDZ is rather pointless in my opinion.

 

[sdowney717]

When we pumpout our holding tanks, that sewage is treated by local sewage systems. After treatment, the effluent is discharged into Puget Sound. All the NDZ designation did was to prohibit vessels from treating the sewage onboard and then discharging it.

An NDZ could make sense for certain areas of Puget Sound or for certain classes of boats. For example, the large cruise ships that may only just meet the MSD Type II bacterial count standard of 200 per 1,000 ml. The standard for most boats like ours for a MSD 1 is 5 times as high which is much higher than FUNCTIONING municipal treatment plants.

However, my understanding is that treatment systems such as sold by Raritan for boats like are, far exceed the MSD I standards. However, an EPA study that I saw showed mixed results. However, the study design seemed extremely flawed.

So, preventing direct, overboard discharge of sewage is a good thing. Making all of the US Salish Sea an NDZ is rather pointless in my opinion.

Makes little sense to call it a NDZ then, as they still are discharging treated sewage waste there. Rather discriminatory and inconsistent of them to not allow Lectrasans etc... My Lectrasan works fine, and I pump right into the Chesapeake Bay after it treats the waste. Getting fecal coli-form counts down well, bacteria grow fast anyway, start with a few, and you can have millions more, E coli is everywhere regardless of who discharges what and where, just the numbers change, sometimes less, sometimes more.