Time for Lithium House

[dhays]

My Thruster bank was able to be resurrected. My house bank OTOH, just isn't recovering from my recent power outage at the dock and the resulting deep discharge of my 4 x L16 6V house batteries. They are 7 years old. As soon as I shut off the charger today when I was down on the boat, that bank dropped to 11.9v within a few minutes without any load on the bank.

So I want to replace it with Lithium. The question come as to what battery to use.
I trust CMS's opinions and he likes Epoch. They do have a nice 460AH battery but they are relatively expensive.

For less expensive options Rod likes some of the Vatrer or LiTime batteries for a cheaper option. Both Vatrer and Litime have a 460AH battery. Neither of those has internal heating. However, while we do get cold here, normally the boat never gets below freezing and I do have some low heat in the space where the the batteries are kept to keep it above freezing. So I'm not sure if that is an issue or not. I don't want to cheap out on these batteries, partly because the technology is new to me. At the same time, the Vatrer or Litime batteries are $1200 each. The Epoch are $1800 each, half again as much! I know a number of you have already done this, any recommendations?

Do folks normally put lithium batteries in boxes? I like having my current batteries in boxes because the space they are in serves as a major storage space for all kinds of gear. It is nice having the batteries protected.

 

[ksanders]

EPOCH makes a 460 ah without Victron communications for around $1200

 

[RedRascal]

My choice would depend on where the batteries would live on the boat. Assuming the boat stays in Puget Sound in the winter then a battery without heating or low temp protection may be okay in the engine room if the boat stays in the water. However I might question those same batteries in the lazarette if we get into one of those week long deep freezes and the lazarette is below an open cockpit. I know you have heat but I am thinking power outage then power comes back once things are below 32. If the boat on the hard in the winter then definitely some type of freeze protection. The 400+amp batteries have been out for about a year so I bet the next wave coming will probably have low temp protection. Seems like more and more batteries are getting low temp and bluetooth features, maybe something new will be out for Black Friday if you can wait that long.

Are you looking to add more useable amps to the boat or stick with the equivalate useable amps from lead?

 

[Delta Riverat]

Epoch has the 460 with heating and Bluetooth for $1300

 

[RedRascal]

Well Epoch has 460 amps in two flavors, that's cool news to me. Just noticed the $1,800 Epoch has the higher spec BMS which might be enough to crank over an engine.
Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 500A (30 Seconds) , 1300A (1 Second)

 

[dhays]

EPOCH makes a 460 ah without Victron communications for around $1200

I will check that. Thanks.

 

[mvweebles]

Are you sure you're sizing this properly? To my thinking, what you need is a battery with BMS capable of high current discharge but you don't necessarily need a lot of reserve amps (Epoch 460 AH - 5kw (12v) is a very large reserve but only 300A continuous discharge). Not sure the size of your thruster, but mine has a 400A fuse so I would find the smallest LFP battery capable of >400A BMS. Reserve capacity of 60AH would be more than enough I suppose - close to 10-mins of continuous thruster use which is a very long time.

They aren't cheap (yet) but there are some LFP start batteries in the market that might be a good match.

H6/Group-48 Lithium Car Battery

Antigravity H6/Group-48 Hi-Power lightweight Lithium Automotive Battery with RESTART Technology. Replace lead/acid battery in Hi-Performance Cars.

antigravitybatteries.com

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

If it were me I'd get (2) of those 460's and parallel them. Now no worries at all.

 

[Portage_Bay]

dhays,

Many of us nursing aging FLA house banks need to consider the change to lithium.

Here's my rough pass at your situation, of course quite a bit of guess work here.

Your current bank is 4 x L16 batteries. Using the data for Rolls L16 at 445 Ah each that gives you a total capacity of 890 Ah. Conventional wisdom says never go below 50% SOC which gives a usable capacity of 445 Ah when fully charged. Conventional wisdom says realistic cruising SOC is 80% which give a usable capacity of 267 Ah.

I found the Rolls on close out price of $318. 4 batts = $1,272.
Changes required to put in the Rolls probably $0 or close to it.

Considering the lithium battery you've found
Maximum capacity 460 Ah
I've read from reputable sources plan on 80% of that or 368 Ah
So a single battery beats the cruise capacity of the L16 bank when on cruise.
Of course there's the problem you have just one battery, it goes down, you loose your house bank. BMSs do fail.

Considering the lithium prices stated in this thread one 460 Ah battery as low as $1,200. But what must you change to go lithium? That of course depends upon what you currently have installed in your boat.

Charger?
Battery monitor?
Changes or mods to alternator(s)?
Cabling?
Fuses?
Ballast? Removing hundreds of pounds of lead may affect trim.
Two batteries for redundancy and or extra capacity?
How to charge the start bank if staying with lead?
Total cost of those changes?

For me it would come down to how long do I want to keep the boat? 1 - 3 years? I might stay with lead. A close out on Rolls batteries could be the signal the the end of lead is really here. This might be a short term window to get lead cheap. Longer term ownership of the boat then lithium becomes attractive for cost because they will last much longer than lead.

None of my rough pass takes into account the advantages of lithium. Faster charge times, voltage stays up throughout the discharge cycle, smaller total foot print for the bank, less weight.

Just thinking at this point. My house bank is 10 six volt golf car batts for a total of 1,050 Ah when new and fully charged, not too different from your total. The bank is 4 yrs old and so far seems in good health. But their days are numbered.

 

[dhays]

Are you sure you're sizing this properly? To my thinking, what you need is a battery with BMS capable of high current discharge but you don't necessarily need a lot of reserve amps (Epoch 460 AH - 5kw (12v) is a very large reserve but only 300A continuous discharge).

Peter,
As usual my ramblings are hard to follow. My thruster bank will survive for at least a little while longer. However my House bank won't. So new thread, different question.

So I am looking at replacing my house bank. Currently it is a dying 4 x L16S 6v bank. Won't hold a charge and is running 10°C higher than the thruster bank located in the same compartment under float.

 

[ksanders]

I have the exact same qty 4 L16 Lead Acid house bank.

I also have a high capacity charging system that can take advantage of the higher acceptance rate of the Lithium batteries.

Probably this winter the plan is to change out the FLA batteries for two of the Epoch Lithium 460 AH.

I do not need two to match my current capacity, but as others have posted, I want the redundancy of two parallel cells, so in case one fails I can use the other.

 

[SteveK]

Personnaly I decided more batteries is better adding up to the total Ah chosen. So I have 8-100Ah each with their own BMS and all communicating with each other.
But this is about Epoch 460Ah batteries, in this case perhaps 2 batteries.
Victron is often mentioned here and I was surprised when Kevin posted an Epoch that did not need Victron communication. Then I found THIS where Panbo does an update report on the Epoch 460 after actual use since the beginning of the year.
The Panbo update applies to all types of LifePO4 as to rapid charging high current charging causing something called Lithium Dendrite

These batteries are evolving and changing before the several year ones have been put to the test to prove the original claims.
LFP is great, the recharging of them should be part of the planning process.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter,
As usual my ramblings are hard to follow. My thruster bank will survive for at least a little while longer. However my House bank won't. So new thread, different question.

So I am looking at replacing my house bank. Currently it is a dying 4 x L16S 6v bank. Won't hold a charge and is running 10°C higher than the thruster bank located in the same compartment under float.

Yep, my bad. Should have waited for second cup of coffee to kick-in.

I like my LFP house bank. Not sure it's worth the gymnastics needed for added controls and charging unless you're a hard-core cruisers, but I do like it. I think there's a strong case for AGMs and an old-school internally regulated alternator. Won't charge as fast, but much less tempermental. I wouldn't go back, but if I were just doing weekends and an occasional week or two cruise per year, it's a harder case to make for LFP.

Peter

 

[Iggy]

Look at KiloVault HLX+ batteries, serious quality and value

 

[dhays]

@Portage_Bay you have done a great job of outlining some of my own thoughts.

When new, the L16s were rated at 390Ah. So the total bank of 4 6v batteries was 780Ah. You are right that in use, I tried to keep them from going below 80% SOC so that is only about 160Ah usable. There were some times when they would get closer to 60% during a cruise, but what I think finally did them in was a combination of age and recent extremely deep discharges.

My wife and I always would like more usable power. She uses a CPAP now and while we have a battery powered portable, it doesn't work as well as her regular unit. So my thought was that I easily have the room for two 8d sized batteries in the current space so was thinking 460 x 2 = 920 or maybe 590Ah usable if the assumption of actual Ah may be only 80% of rated and going down to 20% SOC. That would give me a lot more usable Ah than what we have had.

You post causes me to take another look at some of the 300Ah batteries that are out there. Good batteries that can be had for $700. Two of those, using the same assumptions would give about 380Ah usable. Still quite a bit better than what I have had.

As for the cost to change to Lithium that is a consideration as well. As near as I can tell, my current Magnasine MS2812 inverter/charger would be adequate. EXCEPT, the shortest absorb time that it can be set for is 60 minutes. That could be a problem and something I am still trying to pin down.

Beyond that, it should be a relatively painless swap as I have already made other changes with a change to Lithium in mind. I would need to add a Class T fuse.

Trim of the boat would be improved with the change.

Even so, the simplest solution would be to replace like with like. Not sure how long I will be able to keep the boat with my wife's hampered mobility the last few years but I am still hopeful that it will improve. That would also be a consideration as you point out.

I definitely need to check on the inverter/charger situation and should keep checking to see what the cost would be to just replace with new L16s.

 

[Barking Sands]

Look at KiloVault HLX+ batteries, serious quality and value

As far as I know Kilovault is out of business about a year ago.

 

[Portage_Bay]

dhays,

Like your wife I too use a CPAP. The current draw is significant when using the humidifier function. On the boat I disable that function and the current is substantially less. Atmospheric humidity is high enough for comfort on the water. I haven't measured the non humidifier power draw in quite some time and memory fails me on that. But I don't worry. It's tiny compared to what the refer and freezer require which are our two biggest energy hogs. And very important to us.

I've thought about getting a 2nd power brick, cutting the DC side cord off and hardwiring into the boat's DC system. That would eliminate the inefficiency of converting 12 V DC to 120 V AC at the inverter. Then 120 V AC back to 12 V DC from the power brick. I haven't done that yet because I think there are other little power draws are more worth targeting. Forgetting to turn off nav electronics after the hook is down and set. Leaving Starlink on full time for convenience. Being lazy about turning off lights. Charging phones and tablets only when engines or generator are running. The list goes on.

And like you our ownership timeline is fairly short. Replacing FLA with like kind is most likely what I will do.

 

[Barking Sands]

I have a pair of the Epoch 460ah Marine batteries with the Victron comms. You dont need to use Victron comms to make them work. As a matter of fact I have a full Victron set up and do not use the Victron comms...or atleast not for control. Details of the Epoch are imported into the Victron system for viewing and warnings on the Cerbo/touch 50 screen though. The charging control is accomplished using the Victron Smart Shunt and Cerbo and programming the Multiplus2 for absorbtion and float voltages. There is also no need to use Victron equipment for these batteries. All you need is a charger that can set absorption voltages and float voltages (13.9 and 13.5).

FYI..the higher end Marine 460 is $1799 but finding a 10% off code is very easy so thats around $1620 each. The Victron comms only accounts for a small portion of the increased cost. One of the features that I have come to love n the Marine version is the remote on/off switch for each battery. I use it only occasionally but when I need it it sure is handy VS crawling down in the engine room. I made a small panel near the inverter/charger that has the remote batt monitors, the on/off switch and then the Blue Seas Remote Battery contactor in the cabin. That way I can turn off one batt, both batt, or isolate DC power to inverter while keeping DC on etc for Mx, servicing or other needs. The 460 Marine also has integral mounting in the case and available L brackets. The BMS inside is massively beefy and is Roypow proprietary and has very high discharge ratings. In the center of the top of the battery is a huge silver accent. Except its not an accent, its a large aluminum plate incorporated into the design as to dissipate Mosfet heat from inside the battery case to outside. In addition the Epoch 460 Marine version has a 500 amp class T fuse inside the case (spares available). This class T is the next size up architecture from the standard 400 amp class T such as the blue seas Class T and holder. This saves a minimum of $100-140 per battery. Having the internal class T also allows you to incorporate MRBF fuses of your design size ( for wiring) so that you can use say...a 250 amp MRBF on each positive batt post for a very clean install.

The Epoch Essential absolutely is a good value since it has internal heating and Bluetooth. But it does not have an on/off button (not to big a deal) and has lower discharge and charge ratings. It uses a JBD BMS.

I have done a bunch of testing on the 460 Marine version and I am quite happy with it. A pair easily runs my 16k BTU Ac unit, the Microwave and DC loads all at once without even breathing hard. The picture below shows a touch over 300amps discharge. A pair of the 460s are capable of twice that.

 

[dhays]

dhays,

Like your wife I too use a CPAP. The current draw is significant when using the humidifier function. On the boat I disable that function and the current is substantially less. Atmospheric humidity is high enough for comfort on the water. I haven't measured the non humidifier power draw in quite some time and memory fails me on that. But I don't worry. It's tiny compared to what the refer and freezer require which are our two biggest energy hogs. And very important to us.

I've thought about getting a 2nd power brick, cutting the DC side cord off and hardwiring into the boat's DC system. That would eliminate the inefficiency of converting 12 V DC to 120 V AC at the inverter. Then 120 V AC back to 12 V DC from the power brick. I haven't done that yet because I think there are other little power draws are more worth targeting. Forgetting to turn off nav electronics after the hook is down and set. Leaving Starlink on full time for convenience. Being lazy about turning off lights. Charging phones and tablets only when engines or generator are running. The list goes on.

And like you our ownership timeline is fairly short. Replacing FLA with like kind is most likely what I will do.

My wife found that without the humidifier she ends up with a lot of nasal irritation. Her portable unit is great, and has its own battery. So it can charge during the day when we are either running the engine or genset. However, no humidifier and while it does have these odd filters that are supposed to add moisture to the air, I think she is allergic/sensitive to the chemical. So anyway, extra Ah would be nice for that.

FLA would be another thing to consider. I just hate watering batteries. The batteries are in the same compartment as the diesel heater as well, and I've not been real comfortable with the idea of hydrogen gas in the same space as the heater.

 

[dhays]

I have a pair of the Epoch 460ah Marine batteries with the Victron comms. You dont need to use Victron comms to make them work. As a matter of fact I have a full Victron set up and do not use the Victron comms...or atleast not for control. Details of the Epoch are imported into the Victron system for viewing and warnings on the Cerbo/touch 50 screen though. The charging control is accomplished using the Victron Smart Shunt and Cerbo and programming the Multiplus2 for absorbtion and float voltages. There is also no need to use Victron equipment for these batteries. All you need is a charger that can set absorption voltages and float voltages (13.9 and 13.5).

FYI..the higher end Marine 460 is $1799 but finding a 10% off code is very easy so thats around $1620 each. The Victron comms only accounts for a small portion of the increased cost. One of the features that I have come to love n the Marine version is the remote on/off switch for each battery. I use it only occasionally but when I need it it sure is handy VS crawling down in the engine room. I made a small panel near the inverter/charger that has the remote batt monitors, the on/off switch and then the Blue Seas Remote Battery contactor in the cabin. That way I can turn off one batt, both batt, or isolate DC power to inverter while keeping DC on etc for Mx, servicing or other needs. The 460 Marine also has integral mounting in the case and available L brackets. The BMS inside is massively beefy and is Roypow proprietary and has very high discharge ratings. In the center of the top of the battery is a huge silver accent. Except its not an accent, its a large aluminum plate incorporated into the design as to dissipate Mosfet heat from inside the battery case to outside. In addition the Epoch 460 Marine version has a 500 amp class T fuse inside the case (spares available). This class T is the next size up architecture from the standard 400 amp class T such as the blue seas Class T and holder. This saves a minimum of $100-140 per battery. Having the internal class T also allows you to incorporate MRBF fuses of your design size ( for wiring) so that you can use say...a 250 amp MRBF on each positive batt post for a very clean install.

The Epoch Essential absolutely is a good value since it has internal heating and Bluetooth. But it does not have an on/off button (not to big a deal) and has lower discharge and charge ratings. It uses a JBD BMS.

I have done a bunch of testing on the 460 Marine version and I am quite happy with it. A pair easily runs my 16k BTU Ac unit, the Microwave and DC loads all at once without even breathing hard.

That is really helpful. The information pretty much mirrors the reasons Rod Collins likes that battery. Do you happen to know what the max Absorb time is for the battery? One of my concerns is that my current charger has a minimum absorb time of 60 minutes. I'd rather not have to change my inverter/charger if I don't have to so that becomes another issue.

The added available Ah would be very nice.

Did you place your batteries in a box?

One thing that I've noticed with both the Vatrer and Litime 460Ah batteries is they both have an on/off switch mounted on the battery. Not as convenient as a remote switch, but still handy.

 

[DDW]

Another consideration on the Epoch is the physical form factor. The 460 are 4D sized. They have a 300 which is more like G31 sized. I'm in the same decision process and three of the 300 will fit the space much better than two of the 460. The 300 has the same (200A) discharge spec, so three paralleled gives you 600A, while two 460 gives you only 400A.

 

[Pocoron]

I recently installed a pair of Epoch 460Ah batteries (the IP67 version). It is still early but I am pleased with the batteries. The big take-away for me is that any LiFEPO4 batteries are NOT a direct drop-in replacement for lead-acid batteries. Consideration needs to be given to shore charging, alternator charging and your wiring/protection scheme.

 

[Iggy]

As far as I know Kilovault is out of business about a year ago.

Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Barking Sands]

That is really helpful. The information pretty much mirrors the reasons Rod Collins likes that battery. Do you happen to know what the max Absorb time is for the battery? One of my concerns is that my current charger has a minimum absorb time of 60 minutes. I'd rather not have to change my inverter/charger if I don't have to so that becomes another issue.

The added available Ah would be very nice.

Did you place your batteries in a box?

One thing that I've noticed with both the Vatrer and Litime 460Ah batteries is they both have an on/off switch mounted on the battery. Not as convenient as a remote switch, but still handy.

Believe it or not my Multiplus 2 also has the same 60 minute absorb time. I wish I could lower it. But how much of absorb time is actually somewhat dependent on what your absorption voltage is set to. Any absorption voltage over about 13.6 can completely charge a Lifepo4 battery to full capacity as tested via actual capacity testing. It just takes a longer absorption time at 13.6. Alternatively, if you charge the same battery to 14.4 you will not need a second of absorption (unless you wanted additional time for balancing for some reason). The Epoch 460 marine really seems to like 13.8 or 13.9 as an absorption voltage. This is not an extreme voltage so a 1 hour absorption isnt going to harm things relatively speaking. It would likely be fully absorbed after about 10 or 20 minutes. The remaining 30 minutes absorbing around an amp or 2 actually can help balancing. And this is essentially how mine has been working for some time.

I did not place in battery box. I made mounting panels of fiber glassed pieces of Birch and mounted the 460s using the Epoch mounts into the fiber glassed panels. They are out in the open for cooling. The mount panels are affixed to my stringers. It should handle a rollover.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Lithium's don't need a box but they do need securement. Also some kind of cover over the terminals to remove the "oops" factor. What charger do you have now?

 

[Barking Sands]

Thanks for letting me know.

Very unfortunate. They were a well liked battery.

 

[Barking Sands]

Another consideration on the Epoch is the physical form factor. The 460 are 4D sized. They have a 300 which is more like G31 sized. I'm in the same decision process and three of the 300 will fit the space much better than two of the 460. The 300 has the same (200A) discharge spec, so three paralleled gives you 600A, while two 460 gives you only 400A.

Thats for the 460 Essentials line. The 460 Marine is 300 continuous each. And in testing has shown to be able to easily eclipse that. But yes...space is often a major concern for sure.

 

[ksanders]

Personnaly I decided more batteries is better adding up to the total Ah chosen. So I have 8-100Ah each with their own BMS and all communicating with each other.
But this is about Epoch 460Ah batteries, in this case perhaps 2 batteries.
Victron is often mentioned here and I was surprised when Kevin posted an Epoch that did not need Victron communication. Then I found THIS where Panbo does an update report on the Epoch 460 after actual use since the beginning of the year.
The Panbo update applies to all types of LifePO4 as to rapid charging high current charging causing something called Lithium Dendrite

These batteries are evolving and changing before the several year ones have been put to the test to prove the original claims.
LFP is great, the recharging of them should be part of the planning process.

Sorry for my apparent miscommunication.

The EPOC batteries are offered with and without Victron Communications.
The world does not "need" victron communications, but being as I have a Victron based Dc system, I'll opt for the "victron communications" when I buy batteries.

 

[dhays]

Another consideration on the Epoch is the physical form factor. The 460 are 4D sized. They have a 300 which is more like G31 sized. I'm in the same decision process and three of the 300 will fit the space much better than two of the 460. The 300 has the same (200A) discharge spec, so three paralleled gives you 600A, while two 460 gives you only 400A.

Another excellent point. I hadn't noticed the size difference. It would be easier to move the 300Ah batteries, and the aren't as tall which would be helpful. Cabling would be a little more involved but less than my current setup. That 300Ah I think you are referring so is the soon-to-be-released?

So many choices.... I haven't been able to identify what Epoch wants for max Absorb time however.

 

[dhays]

Believe it or not my Multiplus 2 also has the same 60 minute absorb time. I wish I could lower it. But how much of absorb time is actually somewhat dependent on what your absorption voltage is set to. Any absorption voltage over about 13.6 can completely charge a Lifepo4 battery to full capacity as tested via actual capacity testing. It just takes a longer absorption time at 13.6. Alternatively, if you charge the same battery to 14.4 you will not need a second of absorption (unless you wanted additional time for balancing for some reason). The Epoch 460 marine really seems to like 13.8 or 13.9 as an absorption voltage. This is not an extreme voltage so a 1 hour absorption isnt going to harm things relatively speaking. It would likely be fully absorbed after about 10 or 20 minutes. The remaining 30 minutes absorbing around an amp or 2 actually can help balancing. And this is essentially how mine has been working for some time.

I did not place in battery box. I made mounting panels of fiber glassed pieces of Birch and mounted the 460s using the Epoch mounts into the fiber glassed panels. They are out in the open for cooling. The mount panels are affixed to my stringers. It should handle a rollover.

Thanks again. Great information.