To Repair or Sell Grand Banks 36 Classic

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You definitely need a second opinion on the engine, not a free consult, pay a mechanic to come down and do in depth check.

As mentioned you'd almost be giving the boat away not running, not a lot of value on the upgrades in a non running boat. You'd hate to sell it for pennies on the dollar and see the new owner cruising away in a couple days because he was able to repair the engine and motor away.

Good Luck and if you get the engine properly evaluated I'm sure many here would like to know the final prognosis.
 
The SP135 is so damned easy to rebuild. I did so as my first engine rebuild ever.

I agree, why would the crankshaft be broken? Was it run out of oil? Did you run it at overheat for hours on end?

(Also, the cylinder six issue doesn't apply to the SP135.)

All rebuilding parts for that engine can be had for a few grand. If access to the pan can't be had, then block the engine up until you can get access to remove it.

The best advice thus far is to remove the injectors, bar the engine, and view with a cheap scope. The next best is to remove the head. PM me and I'll tell you what machine shop in Jax I used. You as the owner can order a rebuild manual from Brian at American Diesel and follow the directions--be methodical in your approach, and determine if it's salvageable.

Any mechanic that starts at the most extreme with no knowledge should be fired not he spot.

The overheat alarm on SP135 doesn't start to buzz until 220. At worse you're likely looking at a machine of the head and a valve job.

Two hours of investigation at $100/hour of service time is well worth the investment compared to what will be a $20,000 repower.

Finally, although I solidly land on "between them it is is" regarding relationships, it does seem like you've already put a lot of love and care into the boat.

All that said, if you do repower and want to toss the the old engine, I'll gladly take it off your hands. For a few grand investment on my part I'll have a nice engine.

(Purposefully being funny on the last part.)
 
Good reason to have an exhaust temperature alarm. They will tell you almost immediately when the impeller is gone. I have put Borel Manufacturing alarms on my last 2 boats. They are simple to install and don’t cost too much. No affiliation.
 
hytedin said:
All that said, if you do repower and want to toss the the old engine, I'll gladly take it off your hands. For a few grand investment on my part I'll have a nice engine.
Click to expand...

If you don't repower and want to toss the old boat, I'll gladly take it off your hands. For a few grand...

(My wife would put her foot down but my feet are bigger. :thumb:)
 
As a mechanical engineer who worked with lubricants I've seen engines fail, mainly when we were testing them at maximum load for hundreds of hours. In 35 years I saw one engine actually fail catastrophically and that was due to a broken connecting rod (as far as we could tell). I don't think I've ever seen a crankshaft fail. Normally a mechanical failure (breaking) is caused either a lubrication failure (eg. loss of oil pressure) or an internal mechanical failure such as a bearing insert spinning (which also is quite rare), not just a mild overheat. I say mild because what you describe sounds like just a few minutes elapsed and you shut it down (i.e. it didn't seize on its own).

All that said I would get another mechanic to take a look. Others have pointed out what may or may not have happened but in any case eliminate the simple things before jumping to the most extreme conclusion (replacement). Even if you were selling the boat anyway I would not be quick to do an "as is where is" sale without knowing for sure what the problem is. If you really do want to sell I would probably NOT change to another brand engine, just too much involved. The only choice in a sale is if you repair/replace the Leyman in like kind or just sell as is. I suspect in the as is sale you'll get far less than the value minus repair costs. Buyers would be cautious since no sea trial would be possible.
 
Having just done a Detroit to Cummins repower I would be very suprised if your numbers are accurate. I think that recon 6bts are a few thousand more than $10K. Then there is the question of if your reduction gear would work, if not figure a few thousand more, at the least you will need an adapter plate. if you change the reduction gear you are looking at new props and then there is exhaust, guages etc...... not to mention yard fees. Realistically I think you woudl be very lucky to get a warrantied recon cummins in the boat for than $50K. Just the harness and guages for the Cummins would be $2,500. Oh and if you have a flybridge you need to change all the sending units on a stock 6bt.
 
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Everyone has been so helpful. I think my take away is to roll up my sleeves. Do my due diligence and see where it takes me. Probably employ a non-biased mechanic. I will keep you posted how this goes. The boat's name is Sunshine, but here of late we have been calling her Sunset. You have inspired me to think about a name change again.
 
The engine was running for two minutes after the temp went to 220. When did the crank have time to break? Pull the injectors and hand crank it over. Another hydro locked engine? Things come in threes, next
 
Capt Dadio,
I'd like to second you need a second opinion, or a new mechanic or both. I had this exact same thing happen on my FL120 on my GB 32. I killed the engine one it went past 180 and got towed in. My issue was a cooling leak in the exhaust manifold, due to a crack and a bad exhaust elbow which emptied my cooling system. Luckily I was able to find a replacement manifold on eBay and I'm back up and running. If the engine stopped due to being siezed well that's a whole different matter!
Best of Luck!!
 
I've always wished my boat had a single FL120 instead of two but this thread is making me thankful for the redundancy!
 
My .02 cents. (Internet guessing is fun)

This is where I would start.
Check the oil, does it still have oil, does it smell burnt or is it jet-black?
If there is no oil, or if its burnt and jet black... it’s going to need a rebuild again.

If No then..

It could a blown head gasket (my number one guess), and or a rotted out exhaust mixer that let water in where it should not have gone when you shut it down.




If it were my boat, I would spend a few grand if I had it on a new mechanic; I think you can fix it without a replacement.
 
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I don't think I would give up on her quite yet. The scenario sounds to me one of a simple overheating event. Low RPM with temp at 180, then at high RPMs over 200 - makes me think raw water pump impeller went and it overheated. Looks a lot worst than really is with steam spewing from engine compartment. As others have said; spend a few more boat bucks on it and you may find a relatively inexpensive fix is all that is needed. You are going to lose money either way, you might as well have a boat at the end of the day versus lost money and no boat.
 
The oil is good. The bilge is clean for a GB bilge. Expansion tank holds water. No leak. Valve cover off, there is no indication of water. Spoke with Brian over at AD and he is having me go to the transmission first to check the flex plate. A good way for me to calibrate to the engine's requirements for DYI repair, see if I can do this. Thank you again for the posts.
 
If you are missing pieces of the springs, time to replace. Had a broken spring wedge the flywheel so engine could not be turned, this after a normal shut down. I was offered an engine rebuild, instead installed new damper DIY.
20191015_broken damper.jpg
 
Capt Dadio said:
Fellow Boaters I have need of your help.
My Lehman 135 overheated (loose fan belt) and shut down. We had to be towed in.

The engine would not restart. Flywheel will not turn. Slight smell when the valve cover was removed. No water in oil. Expansion tank holds coolant.

Bottom line, getting an engine out of a Grand Banks is not easy. I have done it twice. But the engine should come out to be repaired. (My mechanic) He suspects broken shaft.

Cummins has an engine, 6BT Retro I believe, that has been known to replace the hard-to-find Lehman engine in decent shape. Cost around $10,000. I figure the replacement costs including on-the-hard would be between $15,000-$20,000.

So here is my dilemma:
Wife wants to sell. Tired of engine swapping. Does not want to spend another dime, sell as is.

I see on the boards, Grand Banks are a desired boat, running.
Not sure about not running.
Should I repair, go through the trip to the yard, spend the money and then sell
\or
Sell as is and take the hit?
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...



Selling as is will cost you more than the repairs, as a buyer will generally not want all that work without a big discount, so if you are able to do it; that's the way i would recommend.
can you not disassemble and possibly repair the engine in situ?
 
twistedtree said:
To be frank, the "broken crankshaft" comment from the mechanic would be a red flag to me. That just makes no sense based on typical failures, the consequences of over heating, or any of your symptoms. It's indicative of someone who either has no clue what they are talking about, or who is a giant BSer. Neither of those suggest someone you want to listen to, let alone hire.


I think the chances are good that there is nothing horribly wrong with your engine. But if there is coolant in the cylinders and it's hydrolocked, you need to get that out of there right away or you will have a badly damage engine. Pulling the injectors (or glow plugs if it has them) and baring over the engine I think it a priority. That will confirm if it turns or if it's really seized up in some catastrophic way. And it will get out any water or coolant that's in the wrong place and that might do real damage.
Click to expand...
I agree unless the head gasket failed, hydro-locked the engine and now the mechanic suspects that broke the crank. Without being there it is hard to question. But this course of events could break a crank.
 
Just sell!

Your wife made it clear what she wants. Pretty much a done deal.

Don't waste more time on it trying to be sure about what is wrong with it. (Me personally though - I'd try a LONG breaker bar and see if I could get it loose and then started. Burning oil etc is better than not running.)

But why spend much time figuring out what will be someone else's problem? They aren't going to just take your word for it anyway so why bother?

The philosophy behind owning / wanting a boat seems pretty basic to me. It's hard for a boat to work as a financial investment. It is more like investing in a vacation - it makes your life better by increasing your quality of life, not by increasing your bank account. If you enjoy the process then do the process whatever it is. Your wife sounds like she will NOT enjoy the process lol.
 
Capt Dadio said:
Fellow Boaters I have need of your help.
My Lehman 135 overheated (loose fan belt) and shut down. We had to be towed in.

The engine would not restart. Flywheel will not turn. Slight smell when the valve cover was removed. No water in oil. Expansion tank holds coolant.

Bottom line, getting an engine out of a Grand Banks is not easy. I have done it twice. But the engine should come out to be repaired. (My mechanic) He suspects broken shaft.

Cummins has an engine, 6BT Retro I believe, that has been known to replace the hard-to-find Lehman engine in decent shape. Cost around $10,000. I figure the replacement costs including on-the-hard would be between $15,000-$20,000.

So here is my dilemma:
Wife wants to sell. Tired of engine swapping. Does not want to spend another dime, sell as is.

I see on the boards, Grand Banks are a desired boat, running.
Not sure about not running.
Should I repair, go through the trip to the yard, spend the money and then sell
\or
Sell as is and take the hit?
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
I would give it a full evaluation and determine EXACTLY what the extent of damage is. This is the only way to even consider what your options are. A quick decision might well be one that costs you more than it would otherwise.
 
GB 36 Ford Lehman 120 Engine Overheat and failure

When you wrote the engine had recently been rebuilt - may be a long shot but one thing to check: do No 4, 5, 6 cylinder pushrods and rocker assemblies look normal or messed up (worn improperly, rod out of rocker arm, etc) but not 1, 2, 3. If so, that's indicative of the two rocker arm assemblies being installed backwards and depriving three cylinders of proper lubrication. I had that experience in 2018 when a supposed "ace mechanic" did an injector calibration on one of my engines. The engine ran for a couple hundred hrs with inadequate lube to 3 cylinders and when it failed, "loud banging" (all hell broke loose). I was lucky it only cost me $3500 to fix plus an extra week's marina cost for transient slip.
 
I have experienced the sound of a broken crankshaft. It sounds like 20 lbs of steel dropped into a huge garbage disposal. Unmistakable. If your engine seized and did’t start, I doubt the broken crank diagnosis.

Many people call themselves mechanics but there are no standards for that title in the USA.
 
repair or sell

First of all I want to send you sympathies. I know what you are undergoing-a broken boat and and fed up wife. Nothing worse.
Having said that, unless you are getting advice from a diesel mechanic who has actually dealt with your specific issue or an owner (like me) all the advice is not really trustworthy. People want to be helpful but you need to have the specific experience.
I have had a Lehman overheat and stop in 42 Classic. In addition, I had two Detroit 8v92TA's on different occasions let go while cruising with guests. Plus a Cat 3208 TI that had to have the cylinders sleeved which I was told was not possible.
Back to your Lehman. Sell it broken, I doubt you would get more than 30k.
Fix it? For starters, you don't know what has happened. Cranks and rods don't break from momentary overheating.
The very first thing you need to do is call Brian at American Diesel. His late father marinized most of the Ford diesels in pleasure boats. The company continues to support the engines with parts and expertise.
In my case I was told that a knock after the overheating was a wrist pin bearing or a rod bearing.Brian told me that it is virtualy unheard of to have bearings failures much less shaft failures in a pleasure boat Lehman application. In my case, he was right. Turns out I had an injector that wouldn't hold pressure and the knock was from the premature firing.
Before that happy ending, I investigated rebuilds. Turns out the enginbe does not have to be removed from the boat. Many are rebuilt in the engine room by hoisting high enough to drop the oil pan to replace main and rod bearings. Pistons and rods come out the top after removing the head. Not a big deal. The head weights roughly 120-130 lbs.
Others have built an A-frame and hoisted into the main salon.
Bottom Line. Call Brian Smith. Use my name Oliver Moore in New Bern if you want. Find out why it won't turn over. Then proceed.
BTW, if you decide to repower. You don't need more HP. Using the calculator in Boat Diesel for your displacement and LWL, the GB 36 requires 36.4 HP at the flywheel to reach a cruising speed of 7 kn.
Add extra HP for breasting currents, storm waves or inlets 85 HP would be more than adequate.
Good luck and let us know your decision. BTW, apologies for typos. I am a terrible typist.
 
I would hire a competent mechanic and have him/her check out the engine. You may well be able to fix the engine for a few thousand dollars rather than giving the boat away because the engine has a “broken crank”.
 
I had a 38ft Marine Trader, so a little bigger than your GB, it came with a 210 Cummins, it was brilliant, plenty of power when needed, ran all day at 1600rpm @ 7.5 knots, averaged 2 1/4 galls an hour, quite and reliable, if you decide to swap over you cant go wrong. Had a friend pull 2 Crusader petrols out of his 44ft Tollycraft, replaced with 210 Cummins, recons the best thing he ever did.
 
In answer to your question: selling without an engine, will attract people knowledgeable people looking for a deal to make some money, to fund their boat addiction. You will come out less well, probably a lot less well.

Boats have risen in price because of me and Lisa, really new boaters. You see us every week on TF asking for buying advice. We won't look at a boat that doesn't have a perfectly running engine, in fact, a perfectly running everything.

I say this with confidence, as I just attended an AGLCA event and met upwards of 20 couples, with more money than sense who are dying to buy your boat in perfect operating order.

I wish I had some words of wisdom to help with your wife, you might try jewelry but depending on how angry she is it could cost more than the engine repair.

Mike
 
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