To Vacuflush or not...

[Ken E.]

I've had a similar experience with the Raritan macerating toilets. For pretty much any turd, if you can get it to fit through the opening at the bottom of the bowl, it can flush it. There's almost no such thing as too big or too solid.

+1. Same experience with my SeaEra's....very powerful, but also relatively quiet and less power used than the Raritan Crown raw water heads I formerly had.

 

[bligh]

The VacuFlush will suck large solids by adding more water. Many VacuFlush owners do not know that additional water can be added to the bowl by lifting the pedal.

Always add extra water in the bowl before "big business" on any marine toilet to facilitate clearing the bowl.

There is NO WAY my VF would have accepted that behemoth. NO way whatsoever.

 

[syjos]

There is NO WAY my VF would have accepted that behemoth. NO way whatsoever.

You'd be surprised.

And if not, then the VF is not installed or working properly.

 

[HeadMistress]

Bligh, you just provided an excellent illustration of one of the reasons why water should always be added to the bowl ahead of solids. That it's not necessary to use nearly as much flush water to clear the bowl is another reason...and that it leaves the bowl MUCH cleaner with less rinsing is the third reason. If you don't have a toilet that can bring water in and hold it, use a cup from the sink. If the water won't stay in the bowl, it's waaay PAST time to replace the joker valve.


--Peggie

 

[cosmo]

Peggie,

I just replaced my joker valve last year. It works for the example you gave but won’t fluids longer term. It will keep things from re-entering. How often should a joker be replaced?

 

[bligh]

You'd be surprised.

And if not, then the VF is not installed or working properly.

I have owned both and IMO, no comparison. Stick with the VF if you want- some people still dont own a smartphone or use amazon and get by fine. VF take up more space , have more hoses and more connections, have a smaller diameter outlet, cycle constantly if the flush valve does not seat properly, are limited to the finite power of a 'vacuum', and they are more difficult to service and troubleshoot. YMMV

 

[syjos]

I have owned both and IMO, no comparison. Stick with the VF if you want- some people still dont own a smartphone or use amazon and get by fine. VF take up more space , have more hoses and more connections, have a smaller diameter outlet, cycle constantly if the flush valve does not seat properly, are limited to the finite power of a 'vacuum', and they are more difficult to service and troubleshoot. YMMV

Most of the issues with VacuFlush or other marine toilet is due to improper installation. Hoses not routed properly, hose runs too long, wrong type of hose "Y" valves and other impediments, two VF toilets connected to one Vacuum Generator, undersize wiring to the pump, inadequate vents on the holding tank, non-Sealand duck bills installed etc.

The other issues are caused by improper usage and lack of maintenance.

We did warranty work on VacuFlush and other toilets installed by boat manufacturers and the leading causes of problems were improper design and installation. Long hose runs, too tight of bends, too many high and low spots in the hose and inadequate wire size were leading causes. Even though 30' of hose is allowed by Sealand, I would never install a hose longer than 20 feet. 6 feet of lift is allowed but I would not exceed 3 to 4 feet if possible. Inadequate tank vents was also up there for issues with factory installs.

 

[bayview]

20 years of flawless operation on two systems. Only replaced one pressure switch. I always flushed plenty of clean water at the end of a trip along with some KP at the end so it stayed in the lines. Never smelled and still had the original jokers. I had spares but never got around to needing them. IMO the thorough clean flush with KO at put away time kept everything working smoothly.

 

[bgillroy]

Be sure to touch base with The "head mistress" Peggy Hall. Buy her book on Amazon. She has thorough subject knowledge all things Blackwater. Look at Marine Elegance heads by Raritan.

 

[cosmo]

Be sure to touch base with The "head mistress" Peggy Hall. Buy her book on Amazon. She has thorough subject knowledge all things Blackwater. Look at Marine Elegance heads by Raritan.

We bought her book over 6 years ago (I think?) for our last boat. A ‘must have’ as far as I am concerned.

 

[ksanders]

Cosmo...

If it were me I would add a electro-scan between the macerator pump and the through hull.

The electro-scan is about the size of a group 31 battery BTW.

Then I would add a Raritan hold N Treat controller. This controls both the electro-scan and the macerator pump.

This would represent the best of all worlds.


When you are in a NDZ you put the key switch to off and you are USCG legal.
Your holding tank stores the sewage as normal.

When not in a NDZ you turn the key to automatic. The system keeps your holding tank empty by treating and discharging as needed.

 

[Codger2]

The VacuFlush will suck large solids by adding more water. Many VacuFlush owners do not know that additional water can be added to the bowl by lifting the pedal.

Always add extra water in the bowl before "big business" on any marine toilet to facilitate clearing the bowl.

The more water you add to a VF toilet the better it works!

 

[O C Diver]

The more water you add to a VF toilet the better it works!

With an 80 gallon holding tank, there's no reason to be water stingy. While I probably own my last big boat, if I went looking again, holding tank size would be on the priority list.

Ted

 

[HeadMistress]

Peggie,I just replaced my joker valve last year. It works for the example you gave but won’t fluids longer term. It will keep things from re-entering. How often should a joker be replaced?

Flushes passing through a joker valve stretch the slit and "lips." A brand new one closes all the way again, but gradually flushes take their toll on it...the slit can no longer close tightly. At first it allows verrrry slow seepage, but as more and more flushes go through it, it gradually widens more and more, allowing more and more seepage....til the slit finally ceases to be a slit and becomes a hole.

So you can't expect a joker to keep water in the bowl like the toilet at home...you really don't want it to 'cuz heavy seas or even heavy wake can send that water all over the head! Which is why marine toilets aren't designed to hold water.

Joker valves in electric toilets are just a one-way valve that does nothing more than prevent backflow. But that's its LEAST important function in a manual toilet...in fact it's most important relaceable part in a manual toilet pump. Here's why:

[FONT=&quot]On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston...less vacuum is generated when you pump it. And as it becomes more worn less and less vacuum, till finally the bowl contents simply move up and down a bit, but don't go anywhere.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So how often to replace a joker valve depends on whether it's in a manual toilet or electric toilet. It should be replaced at least annually in a manual toilet, more often if you're a live-aboard. It really should be replaced at least annually in an electric toilet if you want to hold water at least long enough to still have any in the bowl ahead of solids...but at the least, every two years.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cosmo...if the title of your copy of my book isn't "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors," you have the badly out-of-date 2003 1st edition, released in 20003. You might want to check out the current 2nd edition, released in 2016, to see how much has been revised, updated and added to it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]--Peggie
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[HeadMistress]

Btw...for those of you who have VacuFlush toilets, I've written a piece I call "VacuFlush 101" that explains how it works (an amazing number of owners think they do but really don't) and how much water it really needs to keep it working trouble-free. If you haven't already gotten a copy (quite a few TF members have), I'll be glad to send it to you if you'll send me a PM that includes your email address (no way to attach anything to a PM).


--Peggie

 

[Comodave]

With an 80 gallon holding tank, there's no reason to be water stingy. While I probably own my last big boat, if I went looking again, holding tank size would be on the priority list.

Ted

We looked at a boat Monday that has a 250 gallon holding tank. Holding capacity is not at the top of our must haves but it near the top.

 

[O C Diver]

We looked at a boat Monday that has a 250 gallon holding tank. Holding capacity is not at the top of our must haves but it near the top.

Wish I had that much. Went to Isle Royale in 2017 and plan to return. The national park is a no grey water discharge zone. Would have been nice to have had that capacity for grey water.

Ted

 

[catalinajack]

Indeed, why? The vacuflush has a reputation that has been eclipsed by modern developments and improvements. Bad habits are difficult to break.

There has to be some reason that boat builders install Vacu Flush even though it's more costly.

Bayliner/Meridan, when they were the largest boat manufacturer, started installing Vacu Flush as standard equipment when they went up market even with increased cost.

The new grinder toilets by Raritan, Tecma and Masterflush by Sealand/Dometic are a vast improvement over the old Jabscos and Raritans from the past. The new toilets have larger diameter, hard to plug pump/grinder, fresh water capability, quiet automated operation and everything in an attractive package.

So why are Vacu Flush toilets still being installed in new and existing boats if they are so awful?

Why am I still selling so many Vacu Flush toilets every year?

 

[catalinajack]

So, you are saying no long hose runs, no tight bends, and more, in other words, a perfect installation with no impediments. How many boats afford that ability? Warranty service? How many Marine Elegance heads need ANY for years and years?

Most of the issues with VacuFlush or other marine toilet is due to improper installation. Hoses not routed properly, hose runs too long, wrong type of hose "Y" valves and other impediments, two VF toilets connected to one Vacuum Generator, undersize wiring to the pump, inadequate vents on the holding tank, non-Sealand duck bills installed etc.

The other issues are caused by improper usage and lack of maintenance.

We did warranty work on VacuFlush and other toilets installed by boat manufacturers and the leading causes of problems were improper design and installation. Long hose runs, too tight of bends, too many high and low spots in the hose and inadequate wire size were leading causes. Even though 30' of hose is allowed by Sealand, I would never install a hose longer than 20 feet. 6 feet of lift is allowed but I would not exceed 3 to 4 feet if possible. Inadequate tank vents was also up there for issues with factory installs.

 

[fryedaze]

I have a Tecma, it is like the Elegance toilet system. It is 13 years old. The only time it has been worked was when a wash cloth dropped into it. I have a complete pump assembly that includes everything. It is a $325 insurance policy. The Tecma has two check valves in it but they aren't critical to operation like the vac u flush. If you do a failure analysis on each of the systems, I bet the vac u flush looses. I installed two vac u flush systems for a friend. Bowl seals fail, duck bills fail.

 

[syjos]

So, you are saying no long hose runs, no tight bends, and more, in other words, a perfect installation with no impediments. How many boats afford that ability? Warranty service? How many Marine Elegance heads need ANY for years and years?

All marine toilet will operate poorly with excessive hose runs and bends.

There may not be a perfect installation on new boats or aftermarket, but there is always room for improvement.

I've found hose bends so tight on Vacu Flush and other toilets that it's partially kinked causing reduced flow and blockage. I've found tight hose bends that were created by heating the hose which created a kink in the inside corner of the bend. A PVC bend like in the picture solves that issue.

Sanitation hoses running through a hot engine compartment collapsing from vacuume.
PVC DWV plastic pipe routed away from the hot engine solves that.

Long hose runs with too many low and high spots can be improved by more careful hose routing, relocating the Vacuume Generator midway between toilet and holding tank.

Using barbed hose couplings with sanitation hose instead of the smooth hose cuffs like the one pictured below. And single hose clamps instead of two

Using PVC DWV pipe and long sweep elbows instead of sanitation hose mitigates hose issues.

Some boats are difficult to install a head and holding tank with minimal hose runs that drain to the HT. Especially older boats that never had a holding tank. New boats may include a holding tank into the design but installation by the workers are sometimes poorly executed. Instead of incorporating hose routing in the boats design, especially through stringers, many boats have too many low and high spots from going over stringers.

Some boats don't make good candidates for a VacuFlush installation due to poor or no good Vacuume Generator location, long hose runs, inaccessibility etc. I would recommend a different toilet to the client or keep what they have.

 

[cosmo]

Good morning Peggie.

Sorry to bother you but regarding the vacuflush thread I started; we took your advice while still on the boat and tried pouring water into the toilet bowl before proceeding. I wonder if our Sea-era is tired? It doesn’t want to pull the effluent down despite our efforts. It will go but takes its time. We have tried bumping the operating button as well as holding it to get more water in. Could the blades go dull? Water is introduced into the bowl from the back side. Should the entire rim be introducing water and so we just aren’t getting enough water to mix with solids? This might explain the quick filling of our tank because more water is being introduced then is necessary?

Thank you
Cory

 

[rslifkin]

Check that there's no buildup on the blades or impeller. I found some thicker toilet papers would process fine, but would leave some fibers caught on the blades and noticeably reduce discharge effectiveness. We swapped back to the quick dissolving 1 ply stuff and that solved the problem.

 

[cosmo]

Will do.

Thanks!

 

[HeadMistress]

That's one possibility... However, low voltage to the toilet is the most common reason for sluggish discharge from any macerating electric toilet. That could be due to low voltage from an old battery or one that's had an unusually high or extended load on it without being recharged, but most often it's the result of failing to install the toilet on its own dedicated circuit shared by nothing else--not even cabin lights--that can reduce the power to the toilet. To check for low voltage, put a volt meter on the motor and check it WHILE FLUSHING. If it's getting less than the full 12v, it's not getting enough power.


--Peggie

 

[HeadMistress]

And btw...I should have added: low voltage is highly destructive any electric motor, so if that is the problem, it needs to be corrected as soon as possible.



--Peggie

 

[Comodave]

And that is why when we installed our Marine Elegance head I ran #8 wire when the current draw only called for #10. It is a one time minor cost to go oversize on the wiring but it pays off long term when things get good voltage. Good call Peggie.

 

[HeadMistress]

I freely admit that I don't know squat about electrical systems, so I definitely need to have a chat with my electrician....but it seems to me that if a larger wire size can deliver more voltage than a battery is generating, that--carried to ridiculous extremes--a big enough wire would be able to deliver 12v from a couple of AA batteries.


Open to being educated about this...


--Peggie

 

[Insequent]

I freely admit that I don't know squat about electrical systems, so I definitely need to have a chat with my electrician....but it seems to me that if a larger wire size can deliver more voltage than a battery is generating, that--carried to ridiculous extremes--a big enough wire would be able to deliver 12v from a couple of AA batteries.

Open to being educated about this...

--Peggie

Ah Peggie! I wish you had written the laws of physics. I'd run my trawler at 35kn on a handful of AA's!

It isn't so much that a larger wire can deliver more voltage. More that a smaller wire can lose more voltage. A long thin wire can lose so much voltage (and get quite hot doing it) that there just isn't enough at the other end to get whatever gubbins is there to work.

But you know all this - thanks for making me laugh!

Comodave has it right. Whenever installing something you use a voltage drop calculator to tell you what size wire to use. Then you go one size bigger, to be sure. Sometimes two sizes. I did it for my Headhunter water pressure pump. My electrician installing my watermaker initially went one size bigger, but later re-did it with one size larger again as it was marginal.

And you had the right answer - measure the voltage at the pump/motor. That will tell you whether you goofed on the calculator or your battery bank just doesn't have the SOC or life left in it that you thought it did eg other stuff drawing on it at the same time.

 

[Comodave]

Peggie,

Brian said it correctly. You can’t get more voltage out the far end of the wire than you put in at the close end. But you want to get as close out as what you put in. The way to do it is by large size wire.