To Vacuflush or not...

[HeadMistress]

I wasn't kidding when I said I don't know squat about electrical systems...My gurus in the industry taught me enough to troubleshoot equipment, but that's about all...I celebrated when I successfully replaced the plug on a vacuum cleaner cord! But thanks to the both of you I now know a little bit more than I did.



--Peggie

 

[AlanT]

Lots of great input pro and con for the Vacuflish. I lived with a vacuflush as the primary head for a 4 year liveaboard experience, It was wonderful 99% of the time. Someone used the wrong TP in it which caused a rebuild and much angst. I then had 6 years with 2 Raritan Marine Elegance heads. Worked great. All the foregoing were hooked up to freshwater which, to me, is the most important criteria. I have had older boats in the past with salt water heads and it was always impossible to eliminate the smell of the decomposing marine iife in the pipes. Fresh water is the way to go whatever system you decide upon. ~Alan

 

[Comodave]

I wasn't kidding when I said I don't know squat about electrical systems...My gurus in the industry taught me enough to troubleshoot equipment, but that's about all...I celebrated when I successfully replaced the plug on a vacuum cleaner cord! But thanks to the both of you I now know a little bit more than I did.



--Peggie

Peggie,

I have learned so much more from you than you ever did from me. It is my pleasure to help you once.

 

[rslifkin]

Think of wire size like a garden hose. The bigger the hose, the more water you can feed through it before the pressure drop gets too big.

 

[Bacchus]

Peggie,
If you dont relate well to Volts, amps and wire sizes think about water flow and hoses that you are more familiar with.
Amps are analagous to water flow volume and volts analagous to pressure. Hose size = wire size.
Pressure will never be higher at the far end of a hose than at the supply end or source. It can and will be lower than the source due to losses and the more flow you try to put through a given hose the higher the P drop... and the longer the hose the higher the P drop

If you increase the hose dia the P drop for the same flow will be less.

 

[HeadMistress]

Thanks, Don...it really is possible possible to teach an old dog new tricks!


--Peggie

 

[intdln]

My wife , daughter and I are on vacation and I am growing impatient with our 35 gal holding tank capacity. I have a Raritan electric toilet that uses our fresh water supply. No problem there or smells as the plumbing is PVC. I just don’t like how fast our tank fills up. We have dealt with it during our 6 year ownership but needing a dock to pump out rather than wanting to go to a dock isn’t our thing.

Is a vacuflush worth the money? I understand they use a fraction of the water thus going longer between pump outs.

I should add, installing a larger tank involves carving things up. Doing my research at this point.

Thanks
Cory
‘88 38’ Bayliner

I use Vacuflush and it does very well for us. Our tank is 50 gallons. Do you have a vent filter? Should be replaced annually. Also sometimes the vent line clogs and needs to be flushed. I use Zaal NoFlex Digestor Boat and RV Sewage Treatment which reduces the smell.

 

[pkirkll]

My wife , daughter and I are on vacation and I am growing impatient with our 35 gal holding tank capacity. I have a Raritan electric toilet that uses our fresh water supply. No problem there or smells as the plumbing is PVC. I just don’t like how fast our tank fills up. We have dealt with it during our 6 year ownership but needing a dock to pump out rather than wanting to go to a dock isn’t our thing.

Is a vacuflush worth the money? I understand they use a fraction of the water thus going longer between pump outs.

I should add, installing a larger tank involves carving things up. Doing my research at this point.

Thanks
Cory
‘88 38’ Bayliner

How about the Electro Scan with the Hold and Treat Model-- i just bought 3 of them one for each of my two heads and one for a back up. One of the units is the hold and treat in case i get into an area i do not want to flush anything overboard. Thewy make sense to me.

 

[CarlF]

Another fan of the Marine Elegance. Been almost 10 years now. No repairs.

The smart control uses astonishingly less flush water than the other heads I've had (which include a Lavac). This is not because of any new technology - it's because people overflush. The smart control takes care of the flush timing. Especially among guests, there's a tendency to flush more than needed - "to be sure". The control flushes the same amount per button push. And people rarely feel the need to push the button twice.

That's because another advantage of the ME is that the bowl is really well designed so the swirling action clears the bowl almost every time with one flush. With most marine toilets there's a bit of tissue (or worse) still stuck there after the flush so people flush again - and again - filling the tank. I've never had a SeaEra so I don't know if they clear the bowl as well as the ME. Presumably Peggy knows.

As others have mentioned, if you are going for minimum water usage you really need to use fresh water. Salt water will quickly grow crystals in the hose if you don't flush any urine all the way through.

Soon after the ME was introduced I was told by a Raritan employee at a boat show that they had installed ME's in the Raritan office bathrooms as a test. That's dedication!

The ME only came out about 10 years ago and it took a while to become known. Vacuflush has been around a long time and pretty much owned the premium head space for years. Having owned a ME, I can't imagine going with a Vacuflush today.


As to wire size. Here's a great calculator. The ME at 12v draws 18amps. In the manual Raritan says voltage drop should be kept to 3%. The "length" is one way from the battery to the head - not from the breaker. In most boats you'll need AWG 10 or AWG 8 wire https://www.genuinedealz.com/pages/voltage-drop-calculator

BTW - the site - Genuindealz is a great place to buy marine wire. He'll even make you beautiful custom battery cables for a great price. Used him for years.

 

[rslifkin]

I've found the Sea Era to clear the bowl pretty well too. It's got good swirl, but based on some of the reviews, I'd say the ME is likely better.



As far as guest instructions, my guest head has a pretty short downhill run to the holding tank. So I generally tell them to hit the button for a second to let it feed a little water, then wait for paper, etc. to settle to the bottom. Then hit the button again and once they see the paper and any other solids disappear, another 1/2 second and they're done.

 

[markrkrebs]

Love my vacuflush. Have had both. Multiple boats.

Vacuflush uses half the water, half the smell and trouble.

I was suspicious at first but will never go back.

 

[Comodave]

Another fan of the Marine Elegance. Been almost 10 years now. No repairs.

The smart control uses astonishingly less flush water than the other heads I've had (which include a Lavac). This is not because of any new technology - it's because people overflush. The smart control takes care of the flush timing. Especially among guests, there's a tendency to flush more than needed - "to be sure". The control flushes the same amount per button push. And people rarely feel the need to push the button twice.

That's because another advantage of the ME is that the bowl is really well designed so the swirling action clears the bowl almost every time with one flush. With most marine toilets there's a bit of tissue (or worse) still stuck there after the flush so people flush again - and again - filling the tank. I've never had a SeaEra so I don't know if they clear the bowl as well as the ME. Presumably Peggy knows.

As others have mentioned, if you are going for minimum water usage you really need to use fresh water. Salt water will quickly grow crystals in the hose if you don't flush any urine all the way through.

Soon after the ME was introduced I was told by a Raritan employee at a boat show that they had installed ME's in the Raritan office bathrooms as a test. That's dedication!

The ME only came out about 10 years ago and it took a while to become known. Vacuflush has been around a long time and pretty much owned the premium head space for years. Having owned a ME, I can't imagine going with a Vacuflush today.


As to wire size. Here's a great calculator. The ME at 12v draws 18amps. In the manual Raritan says voltage drop should be kept to 3%. The "length" is one way from the battery to the head - not from the breaker. In most boats you'll need AWG 10 or AWG 8 wire https://www.genuinedealz.com/pages/voltage-drop-calculator

BTW - the site - Genuindealz is a great place to buy marine wire. He'll even make you beautiful custom battery cables for a great price. Used him for years.

Yes, everything I run power to get no more than a 3% voltage drop. It is a one time cost to run bigger wire and not much of a cost at that. But you reap the benefits every time you use whatever you ran the power to.

 

[Comodave]

Love my vacuflush. Have had both. Multiple boats.

Vacuflush uses half the water, half the smell and trouble.

I was suspicious at first but will never go back.

Ask Peggie about how much they really use or they really should use.

 

[Begorrah]

Don't eat and drink so much.

 

[mickand]

I ripped out my VF and installed a Raritan Elegance with the 4 button control panel.
Couldn't be happier - I hated the VF.

 

[Trawlerman]

To vacuflush or not? NOT!

Everyone on our dock with a vacuflush system is eternally having an issue that keeps their vacuum pump cycling. The number of places that a vacuum leak can occur seems to be extensive. If you got a Raritan Elegance system with their electronic control, you not only have a "small flush" and "large flush" (let's say pee and poo) but you can vary the amount of water in each flush from the control panel.

 

[NCheaven]

Great contributions from TF posts. Thanks! Quite an education, and great to have a pro sharing. I bought a 2005 boat with VF, tiny holding tank, 3 years ago. Two adult, 3 days, then pump out. Only VF problems have come from users’ error. A little olive oil or marine head treatment with oil (Care to guess which is more expensive?) works, no repairs needed. Do other TF contributors use vinegar as one post suggested?
Q: Which marine head is most similar to airline heads? Seems like airline heads flush well, but also seems that using chemicals to treat what I presume is recirculating black water make airline heads the worst smelling heads short of an outhouse. Airlines should call Peggy! Seems wise for me to buy her book rather than wait for problems.

 

[Frank60]

So why are Vacu Flush toilets still being installed in new and existing boats if they are so awful? Why am I still selling so many Vacu Flush toilets every year?

Two reasons: When it finally got some real competition from macerating electric toilets, Ed McKiernan launched a saturation ad campaign throughout the 90s and early 2000s to brainwash boat owners and OEMs into believing that 1978 technology was superior to anything else on the market...and it worked...helped quite a bit by some major price concessions to OEMs.

For at least 15 years V/F was the ONLY toilet that drew less than 5 amps, used pressurized fresh water and needed a very carefully worded "as little as" 1 pint of it. Before the "toilet tech revolution" in the 90s, macerating electric toilets drew 30 -50 amps, could only use sea water and needed 1-3 gallons of it/flush and made enough noise to wake the dead (some still do). But while macerating toilet technology has continued to advance, V/F has changed so little except cosmetically since Mansfield Plumbing introduced it in 1978 (they spun it off, along with their entire marine toilet division to SeaLand Technology in 1984) that the same trouble-shooting guide is still included in the owners manuals for all years, all versions.

It's a good toilet...in fact, the toilet on my last two boats. And I was a dealer for nearly 10 years...so I'm intimately acquainted with it and wouldn't walk away from a boat that already had one installed. But I wouldn't buy it again and no longer recommend it.

--Peggie

What would you recommend now?

 

[Comodave]

Peggie likes the Raritan Marine Elegance, if I can be so presumptuous to speak for her. She may also like others but I know she likes the ME because that is why I have one in this boat and our previous boat.

 

[Slider70]

20 years of flawless operation on two systems. Only replaced one pressure switch. I always flushed plenty of clean water at the end of a trip along with some KP at the end so it stayed in the lines. Never smelled and still had the original jokers. I had spares but never got around to needing them. IMO the thorough clean flush with KO at put away time kept everything working smoothly.

What does KP and KO stand for?

 

[Comodave]

KO means Kills Odors. Not sure on the other.

 

[Oldsarge]

I thought that you could only use electosan units in certain areas. I didn't think they are allowed on the great lakes or river systems and Gulf coast and Florida etc. Maybe not Puget Sound ether. Last I heard they were not to be used where pumping overboard is not allowed. Even though from what I read what is pumped overboard is pretty sanitary.

 

[HeadMistress]

The discharge of treated waste from a USCG certified Type I or Type II MSD (ElectroScan and PuraSan are the most popular) is legal in far more waters than the enviro-zealots lead people to believe. Yes, the Great Lakes are NDZ and have been since before the US enacted any marine sanitation laws. And although all closed inland lakes are NDZs, the discharge of treated waste is legal in all the navigable ("capable of supporting commercial vessels and provide egress to open sea") inland rivers except for a few municipal reservoirs.

East coast: Although New England is a hotbed of NDZs, and so is LIS....but once you reach the Chesapeake Bay, the discharge of treated waste is legal in all its waters except for one very small harbor--Herring Bay and a couple of well-meaning but misguided marinas. NC and part of VA coastal waters are NDZs, but from NC south there are no more on whole ICW until you reach the Keys--one of only two NDZs on the whole Gulf of Mexico...Destin Harbor is the only one.

On the west coast, SoCal is another hotbed of NDZs, but once you get north of Santa Barbara, there's only one on the whole west coast (Richardson Bay off SF Bay) till you get to Puget Sound, which a bunch of enviro-thugs managed turn into an NDZ less than 2 years ago. Treatment is legal in most of British Columbia, btw.

You'll find a complete list of federally mandated NDZs on this EPA website EPA NDZ list by state (if it ain't on this list, it ain't an NDZ unless it's a marina...they get to make their own rules as long as it doesn't violate federal law).


--Peggie

 

[HeadMistress]

Frank asked me what I'd recommend now.



That depends on several things including whether the boat is power or sail, boat size (not all toilets are appropriate for every boat), who'll be using the toilets--only "seasoned salts" or a lot of landlubber guests and/or maybe growing kids, available power resources (mostly but not entirely applies to sailboat owners), if the owners wants a toilet that uses fresh water, does the boat carry enough to spare about 3 gal/person/day, the owners budget for a new toilet.


That's the long winded way of saying that there is no "one size fits" all answer to your question.



--Peggie

 

[HeadMistress]

Great contributions from TF posts. Thanks! Quite an education, and great to have a pro sharing. I bought a 2005 boat with VF, tiny holding tank, 3 years ago.. Airlines should call Peggy! Seems wise for me to buy her book rather than wait for problems.

There are a bunch of good reasons to buy my book, but not if you're looking for VF info 'cuz for political reasons I didn't include any except the trouble-shooting guide. That's something I intend to correct in the next update.

However, I have written a piece I call "VacuFlush 101" that explains how it works (an amazing number of owners think they do but don't) and how much water it actually needs to keep working reliably and trouble-free...and I'll be glad to send it to you if you'll send me a PM that includes your email address (no way to attach anything to a PM).


--Peggie

 

[Captain James]

Maybe this is too redneck for some. My wife and I use the aft cabin head for pee only. We use the forward head which is almost right over the holding tank for number two. We don’t flush but once a day. Between uses we close the well fitting door and keep the port open. We collect soiled wipe papers in a hanging plastic bag. I clean Very well the bowl once a day using the shower hose for water.
The upshot is we use very little water per day which stretches out the time between pumpouts greatly.

 

[Recb]

I have had two buts with vacuum flush heads that I found to be very reliable with very little maintenance. They had 40 gallon holding tanks which gave a decent amount of time between pump outs: more than a week with heavy use. While I found the duck bills had a very long life before needing replacement, @ 15 years, reading other posts I think the fresh water hardness is probably a significant factor. We have very soft water while I suspect most have relatively hard water. I can't imagine replacing a working head system with a new type is worth the effort and time and I have no experience doing so.

 

[HeadMistress]

Maybe this is too redneck for some. My wife and I use the aft cabin head for pee only. We use the forward head which is almost right over the holding tank for number two. We don’t flush but once a day. Between uses we close the well fitting door and keep the port open. We collect soiled wipe papers in a hanging plastic bag. I clean Very well the bowl once a day using the shower hose for water.
The upshot is we use very little water per day which stretches out the time between pumpouts greatly.

You should consider replacing both toilets with "MSD" portapotties. [FONT=&quot]The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gal tank to hold that many from a manual marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose and vent line is about $200--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space or using more than about a quart of water/day.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Check out the Dometic/SeaLand 975 MSD [/FONT][FONT=&quot]SeaLand SaniPottie 975 MSD
[/FONT]


--Peggie
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[BDofMSP]

Finally got around to buying the book. Been meaning to for a couple years. Need it now because I'm planning a head replacement (pulling Jabsco Quiet Flush with Raritan ME). Several reasons but mostly to facilitate guests ease of successful use.

BD

 

[Slowmo]

Our vacuuflush system is fairly old but works fine. They're actually fairly simple once you understand them. However, the idea that they only us a cup or so of water is not exactly true. You have to put more down with 'solid' matter. Therefore they're not a cure all for a small holding tank. As for how the system works, I do like it.