Training and Licensing

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None of the maladies that you enumerate have anything to do with Training and Licensing.

Nearly all medical malpractice is the work of a dually trained and licensed physician. Most airplanes and cars that crash have licensed, if not well-trained, operators at the controls.

Enforcement is the answer but wholly impractical. It would require a million Coasties or Water Cops for just US waters.
 
I'm sure more regulation and licensing will fix everything, just like the "War on Drugs", bad drivers, etc...

Seems to me this is an enforcement issue, or owing to spending so much time on the water, you see it more often than the average boater...

More regulations and licensing, it has worked SO WELL for us in the past...
 
None of the maladies that you enumerate have anything to do with Training and Licensing.

Nearly all medical malpractice is the work of a dually trained and licensed physician. Most airplanes and cars that crash have licensed, if not well-trained, operators at the controls.

Enforcement is the answer but wholly impractical. It would require a million Coasties or Water Cops for just US waters.
 
garychurch said:
After 4 years of cruising the East Coast, Bahamas and Caribbean I am a strong supporter of mandatory training and licensing of boat operators.

The reason are listed below and are a combination of ignorance and rudeness. It seems many boaters leave common sense and courtesy at the docks when they begin boating.

1. Many center consoles, heavily engined, love to blast through anchorages snd mooring fields disregarding wakes, occasional swimmers and small dinghies that may be underway.

2. Many recreational fishing boats claim right of way anchoring inside marked channels. Some insist they take right of way precedent because they are trolling.

3. Many “party boats” play loud music in anchorages and mooring fields with associated drinking and yelling until wee hours oblivious to others.

4. Many small power boaters love to zig and zag at high speed in close proximity to other boats leaving their intentions unknown. Seems that right of way rules and good judgement fail them.

5. Many boaters do not actually monitor their marine radios even though they are sprouting VHF antennas.

6. Too many dinghies run through mooring fields and anchorages at high speed at night and without lights.

As a general rule I stay off the ICW and away from other popular recreational boating locations on weekends and holidays where it seems like a dangerous free for all.

I am sure others could add to this list. The problem is the issues identified are not uncommon which is a major concern. In fact with the growing popularity of boating during the pandemic these concerns may be trending.

While nobody is without an occasional error or lapse of judgement, I would solicit other forum member views.
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I agree, but for different reasons. The state of Masssryland requires courses for boaters under 16. However, ANY adult with the cash, can operate a boat WITH NO IDEA of how to navigate or the nautical rules of the road. I have seen 40+ footers on autopilot, at 20 knots, with no one at the helm!
Also knowledge of right of way, especially in crossing situations is vital. Far too many morons with money on the water. Licensing for boats, like cars.
 
Education, Licensing and Enforcement

All three are important! While most states now mandate education for boaters younger than 18 that misses a huge component of boat owners who never set foot onto a boat until they were well into their adult life and can afford it. Licensing is a way to mandate education at all levels and age groups. Licensing also provides a mechanism to hold the operator accountable when you can lose your credential for violating the rules. None of that does any good however unless there is effective enforcement program. Most states and government bodies with jurisdiction over the waterways only talk the game when talking about boating safety. They don't fund the necessary resources in order to make sure that the rules are being followed until a tragedy occurs and then they all read from the same play book of thinking that the best response is to conduct a media campaign about the importance of wearing a life jacket. Education, Licensing and Enforcement. We need all three in order to make boating as safe as it can possibly be.
 
W.Pittman said:
All three are important! While most states now mandate education for boaters younger than 18 that misses a huge component of boat owners who never set foot onto a boat until they were well into their adult life and can afford it. Licensing is a way to mandate education at all levels and age groups. Licensing also provides a mechanism to hold the operator accountable when you can lose your credential for violating the rules. None of that does any good however unless there is effective enforcement program. Most states and government bodies with jurisdiction over the waterways only talk the game when talking about boating safety. They don't fund the necessary resources in order to make sure that the rules are being followed until a tragedy occurs and then they all read from the same play book of thinking that the best response is to conduct a media campaign about the importance of wearing a life jacket. Education, Licensing and Enforcement. We need all three in order to make boating as safe as it can possibly be.
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Increased enforcement would mean more police boats and bodies on the water, i.e. more taxes. Some would make the case that boaters should pay for this meaning higher fees and taxes specifically for boaters. Be careful what you wish for!
 
We have a mandatory education class and requirement for carrying a state operators card for all power boats in Oregon and we still have the same issues. The big question is enforcement.
 
The reason that universal training and licensing of boat operators will never happen is who is going to do it? Not government, they don't want any part of it because of the potential liability for government agency training and/or licensing of recreational boaters. They could get sued following accidents evolving their trainees.

The US Coast Guard no longer requires on-water practical demonstrations by Six-Pack or Merchant Mariner applicants. Too much liability. Written exams only. My MMC training was class-room only.

Ditto with the FAA for pilot applicants for certificates and ratings. (Don't ever call it a "pilot's license" in the presence of an FAA operations inspector) The FAA relies exclusively on "Designee Examiners" who are not government employees and who do check-rides for a fee. Even the airlines now use in-house designee examiners for all line-pilot initials and upgrades. These designees even check-ride each other.

Back in the day (1965 to 1988 or so) I did all my rides with the Man sitting in the cockpit. In the last three years of my carrier I did both my DC-10 and B767 type rating rides in a simulator with a company designee check airmen signing me off. All training by major operators is simulator today. No live rides.

The airlines are heavily insured and always get sued in every accident anyway. It is questionable if programs and operators like ASA, RYM and charter companies are adequately insured to cover their wayward graduates and customers. But no government agency, while they may have some degree of liability that can be ferreted out by a sharp lawyer, is going to take on this liability openly.
 
Look at how many disagreements are posted. Some education might not change the behavior but it is better than a private 'mite makes right' approach.

It seems like most people who complain about da government are the ones who get most ticked off when they are the ones getting negatively impacted. It seems pretty clear that there are a lot of people who are willing to do whatever they can to get ahead no matter how wrong or immoral it is.

I'm for education and licensing. You might disagree with the requirements but you would at least know you are actively blowing them off or not.

OR - we could all get guns and whoever has the biggest baddest gun and is most willing to use it will get to decide what is okay.
 
So would I. That is why I'm in favor of education and a license that verifies the education. What is the alternative?
 
Lol - for sure I was being sarcastic :).

I'm totally in favor of the social contract and living by laws in a society that takes care of its weakest members that need protection, support etc.
 
We all have cellphones. They all can take videos. Wonder what would happen if every time we saw dumb, egocentric stupid behavior we took a video along with a shot of state numbers or name/port and sent it along to local water law enforcement and regional CG?
I taken to doing that when someone anchors way to close. Avoids arguments. If asked say I’m doing it for the future insurance claim. They move. Maybe a variation would work to change behavior.
 
Yep. Uh, I meant nope!

Yeah, that is all we need. More nanny state. Where does it end? We know it doesn't work!
 
Hippocampus said:
We all have cellphones. They all can take videos. Wonder what would happen if every time we saw dumb, egocentric stupid behavior we took a video along with a shot of state numbers or name/port and sent it along to local water law enforcement and regional CG?
I taken to doing that when someone anchors way to close. Avoids arguments. If asked say I’m doing it for the future insurance claim. They move. Maybe a variation would work to change behavior.
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Not thinking law enforcement has the bandwidth to deal with lots of photos/emails from grumpy old men like us. Yes it helps for insurance claims, but other than that it won't accomplish anything more. Unless we all want more on-water enforcement, and are willing to pay for that, all we can do is gripe about other inconsiderate boaters.
 
Not thinking that an inconsiderate boater causing a wake that upsets your cocktail party rises to the need of law enforcement or guns. Take a breath! Lead by example, others may follow.
 
Are we really asking for more government regulation?
 
ProMaritime said:
None of the maladies that you enumerate have anything to do with Training and Licensing.

Nearly all medical malpractice is the work of a dually trained and licensed physician. Most airplanes and cars that crash have licensed, if not well-trained, operators at the controls.

Enforcement is the answer but wholly impractical. It would require a million Coasties or Water Cops for just US waters.
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I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, I attended more schools for training and certifications with regards to shipboard navigation, seamanship, damage control, and much, much more than I care to remember. Engineering early in my career until I figured out I might actually like to enjoy a port visit. And this was for fairly large ships. Celestial navigation, no problem here. Even used NAVSAT at the beginning of my career, the precursor to GPS.

And for the record, I did complete my boater's safety course to be legit. And I don't own a large trawler or similar as you likely do, you are living my dream. My boat is a 15' utility boat.

But I will say this, having seen and read through the message traffic for quite a few maritime mishaps, government, commercial, and private, licensing was rarely the problem.

Typically it was someone not paying attention to what they were doing, usually as a consequence of fatigue or other factors. Or in many cases, the individual or couple who want to cruise the world and end up boarded by pirates in various parts of the world.

Not maintaining a proper watch, drinking, not maintaining equipment, or navigating a new area with little local experience.

I recently read a post on another forum from a couple who want to cruise the world WITHOUT a satellite and working HF data solution, and I would not be without either on blue water.

There is also that feeling after leaving the confines of ones typical existence and getting that initial "I'm free" mentality when going out on the water.

Sometimes when you attempt to prevent something, it is in effect encouraged... The systems are already in place, but some folks just don't care, and probably should not be out there anyways...

At any rate, just my opinion. I really enjoy this forum and all the folks here!
 
I know it's nice in La-La land but training and licensing every Tom, Dick and Harry with a boat is impractical, unachievable and would make little difference. Are you going to put up the money for this? I hope you understand that boat owners would have to pay every penny for this delusional pipe dream in increased marina and registration fees and personal property tax on their boats. The non-boating general public, who think every boater must be rich and privileged, along with their members in Congress and state legislatures, would not stand for governments funding yachties.
 
cardinaltlee said:
I am a licensed commercial pilot. All pilots have to have an FAA issued license and 99% of them are very careful and will not risk losing that license. We would have fewer problems if all people that operated a boat had to have extensive training to receive a license. We would eliminate those people that were not willing to spend the time and money to be a licensed boat operator and the people that have a license would work harder to keep it.
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The counter argument to this is you are an AIRLINE PILOT. If you screw up, hundreds of people potentially die, not to mention a rather expensive aircraft gets destroyed and the lawsuits sure to follow.... Read MILLIONS of dollars, not to mention the public inquisition, NTSB investigation, POTENTIAL criminal charges against elements of the airline or airline itself. Let something happen overseas and now we have what is effectively an international incident.

If a boat is involved in an accident with loss of life, what is the insurance company out? If the individual has insurance? A million dollars? Maybe less? Maybe a little more?

I think it really is just a numbers game coupled with a "public risk" consideration. Boats are similar to motorcycles, they are considered a "luxury" (read: non-essential) item. I suspect the public assumes if you can afford to purchase and maintain a boat, then one should be able to deal with whatever issues that entails, to include someone operating one in an unsafe manner...

It is even WORSE in many overseas locations, this from personal experience...
 
In Indiana, at least, the entire judicial system and law enforcement are paid for by motor vehicle violation fines. Certainly enforcement etc will have greatly increased costs, but these should and could be paid by the violators. In a two hour run down the Caloosahatchee River, through the Miserable Mile and up Pine Island Sound I could have written more than ten tickets for speeding and unsafe maneuvering.
 
gc9773 said:
The counter argument to this is you are an AIRLINE PILOT. If you screw up, hundreds of people potentially die, not to mention a rather expensive aircraft gets destroyed and the lawsuits sure to follow.... Read MILLIONS of dollars, not to mention the public inquisition, NTSB investigation, POTENTIAL criminal charges against elements of the airline or airline itself. Let something happen overseas and now we have what is effectively an international incident.
Click to expand...

To add a little perspective concerning pilots, even private pilots typically spend six months to a year and roughly ten to fifteen thousand dollars getting that entry level certificate. Even if they are flying a $25,000 piper cherokee or cessna 150 they seem to be much more courteous as well as protective of their certificates. Just sayin'.
 
You have a very simplistic concept of insurance, liability and the real legal system in the US as opposed to the legal system taught in American schools. The written contract or agreement means noting in today's lawless society. PM me and I'd be happy to fill you in. I have spent hundreds of thousand of dollars preparing the "catch all" documents and then having to defending myself from baseless law suits which were ultimately settled for pennies over what it cost me in lawyers' fees.
 
Hippocampus said:
Was told of a case where jet skier was slaloming through a mooring field at high speed and hit a moored boat in the middle of the field. He broke his neck. Admiralty court assigned blame to the moored boat due to absence of flying the appropriate day signal. Now come on how did this contribute to this event? This was no accident but rather antisocial, stupid behavior by the PWC operator. However, after hearing this we do fly a black ball.
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Old Saying: "Hard Cases make Bad Law"
 
They already have laws for everthing you dont like if damage is done by another board wake you can sue as for speeding that's why you call patrol as for the party boats cant we just shoot them? Just sayin
 
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