Vaccination passports

[FWT]

The lack of trust is global

https://www.reuters.com/article/hea...home-workers-dont-trust-vaccine-idUSL5N2KZ6I2

 

[Hippocampus]

FWT
You’ve pointed out the biggest obstacle imho. Throughout my involvement in this site I’ve stressed that compliance is key. Both with public health measures and vaccination. Given this is dependent on foresight and altruism I remain concerned. Add in both the left and right have gamed this to gain credence with their bases you have further obstacles.

The high risk population is different than the population mostly responsible for spreading the disease and serving as the reservoir of infection (and opportunity for mutations). 18-34 year olds are more likely to have asymptomatic or minor clinical illness. Whereas those with risk factors are more likely to have morbidity and mortality. The younger population is also more likely to have a higher effective R then the general population as well. Hence you are dependent on that population being altruistic.

Hopefully this goes the way of second hand smoke but I’m not sanguine. Believe it will become endemic. Hope effective therapies come to past. Biologically this is more difficult in general with RNA viruses then DNA. Used to see death or no meaningful neurologic recovery with herpes simplex encephalitis. Acyclovir was a game changer. But with RNA viruses it’s been a struggle. People usually aren’t aware that there’s a increase in difficulties getting effective therapies for infectious diseases. Bacteria (even with antibiotic resistance) is easiest, then fungi or other eukaryotic infectious agents, then DNA viruses, thenRNA then prion. This is a generalization but with few exceptions.

 

[FWT]

Well the fastest way to destroy trust is to force adoption.

Many don't want it. The more it is forced the more firm the resistance.

The argument "YOU need to do this for MY own good" is a loser. Every time.

 

[catalinajack]

We frequently travel back and forth to CT. We are mask wearers and are getting vaccinated tomorrow. However, we have totally ignored Connecticut's ridiculous, unenforceable travel restrictions. We visit relatives, nothing else while there. Drive, not fly.

The bold part is not quite true, especially in CT where as you know there are travel restrictions. I have a house in CT and one in MD, so like you I am subject to CT restrictions. I cannot go to MD and return to CT without being tested or be subject to quarantine. With test results running 3 days, that means I cannot travel to my other home (in a safer area than CT) for a quick weekend to take care of business without taking a number of vacation days. Guilty (infected) until proven innocent.

Which is the logic behind covid passports. Unless you have one you would be considered infected with liberties restricted.

So yeah, you might be free to not get vaccinated, but penalized in freedoms without it.

That's just wrong

 

[Hippocampus]

FWT can you offer any suggestions to improve compliance? What strategy do you suggest?

 

[catalinajack]

The risk is less than getting struck by lighting at the North Pole.

You are certainly free to break the law / regulations, but if you do in CT you are subject to steep fines.

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, it easily meets the definition of a pandemic. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. Pandemic a disease that is "prevalent over a whole country or the world. And, yes, in my opinion, the expense addressing it has been "worth it". You might consider it "worth it" if someone close to you, a loved one, was among the 500k folks who have passed away from Covid. The statistics are inflated you might say. The, 250k instead, still a big number.

Perspective is so lost on this topic in discussions everywhere.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

Per that latest data, the mortality rate is 1.7% since the beginning of this mess when no one knew just how to treat it. That is to say, if you do contract it 1.7% have died.

But with 332 million in the US, 8.4% of the US has contracted it.

0.15% of the US has died from it.

And that's taking all data at face value, which many do not

How many trillions have now been spent on a disease that has killed 0.15% of the population? Can you really call something like that a Pandemic? Is it worth the trillions, destruction of businesses and family wealth, and impairment of liberties, for that?

Its a judgement call. I think not.

 

[catalinajack]

So therein lies the balance.

Take your chances with a never-before-tried approach to the vaccine (which has some deaths reported) or take your chances with your 1.7% chance of death if you get Covid.

Neither choice is wrong. You still have to make it. And it should be no one's business but your own which choice is made.

Yes, quite true, and if you contract Covid and are in that 1.7%, well, I guess then you might regret your choice but you will die with the satisfaction of knowing that your right to make choices had not been abridged.

So therein lies the balance.

Take your chances with a never-before-tried approach to the vaccine (which has some deaths reported) or take your chances with your 1.7% chance of death if you get Covid.

Neither choice is wrong. You still have to make it. And it should be no one's business but your own which choice is made.

 

[catalinajack]

The hysteria is your own. I am not hysterical.

"But accept the consequences."

The consequences of the hysteria surrounding this affects everyone, like it or not. Choose them or not. And that's pretty expensive hysteria. Not just in dollar terms.

 

[backinblue]

We frequently travel back and forth to CT. We are mask wearers and are getting vaccinated tomorrow. However, we have totally ignored Connecticut's ridiculous, unenforceable travel restrictions. We visit relatives, nothing else while there. Drive, not fly.

Catalina, we can agree on this at least. Regardless of whether interstate travel restrictions are legal or enforceable, can we think for a moment about how stupid they are? Is the COVID in one state any different than the COVID in another state? Does crossing a man-made state line make you any more vulnerable than visiting your next-door neighbor. There may have been a short time when it made some sense, for instance if CT was at 2% and NY was at 10%, to try to limit infection spreading from one state to another. But today, it makes no sense for someone to quarantine for 2 weeks just because they spent time in another state to visit family. You are at higher risk by going to your local grocery store.

 

[Benthic2]

Originally Posted by FWT View Post
"But accept the consequences."

The consequences of the hysteria surrounding this affects everyone, like it or not. Choose them or not. And that's pretty expensive hysteria. Not just in dollar terms.

One could argue that the underestimating of Covid is affecting everyone as well, in both dollar and non dollar terms.

The Federal Gov't was warned about the virus in November and "Operation warp speed was started 6 months later.

Federal assistance was with held because the virus initially was hitting blue states harder

In May we were told "it was going to magically go away....."

Widespread, accurate fast testing is STILL not widely available.

Non compliance with the CDC reccomendations has prolonged the pandemic and increased its impact.

 

[Hippocampus]

Worth mentioning operation warp speed monies were not accepted by the pharma companies currently producing over 1/2 of currently available vaccines. And we will need continued compliance with public health measures regardless of (and because of the slowness) the vaccine rollout.

 

[backinblue]

hmmmm, everything I have heard says that the speed of the vaccine rollout is unprecedented. Sure, in hindsight you can find ways to find fault with anything that happened. But is it accurate to call the vaccine rollout as slow?

 

[Benthic2]

... Does crossing a man-made state line make you any more vulnerable than visiting your next-door neighbor.....

First of all, you aren't supposed to visitting your next door neighbor either.

You are ENTIRELY missing the intention of the travel restrictions. They are not to protect you, they are to protect everyone else.

The decisions we make on whether to socially distance, wear a mask or get vaccinated are not just for ourselves. When we do them they benefit everyone, and we neglect them to the detriment of everyone.

 

[backinblue]

First of all, you aren't supposed to visitting your next door neighbor either.

You are ENTIRELY missing the intention of the travel restrictions. They are not to protect you, they are to protect everyone else.

The decisions we make on whether to socially distance, wear a mask or get vaccinated are not just for ourselves. When we do them they benefit everyone, and we neglect them to the detriment of everyone.

I am not against masking, distancing, etc. I'm making a point that there is no difference in risk to myself or to others just because I cross a state line. There is probably a bigger risk in traveling within your own state from a rural area to an urban area which could be a local hotspot. Why not impose self-quarantine ANY time you leave your house? That actually makes more sense. The reason people don't follow regulations is when they make no logical sense.

 

[Hippocampus]

Interesting to see how people are using statistics throughout the discussions of Covid. Would say as a physician you are involved with people who die. Given my specialty like ER docs, intensivists and oncologists not infrequently. You’re able to keep emotional distance so you don’t burn out but often the ones that get you are the avoidable deaths.
The absence of compliance to public health measures and a well coordinated response has resulted in a significant number of avoidable deaths. To me this is heart breaking. I suspect non compliance to vaccination programs will lead to further avoidable deaths. This is heart breaking as well.
Discussions in the abstract are well and good but must say I look at the third leading cause of death in 2020 in the USA and lament and ponder on how many of these deaths were avoidable.

 

[friz]

Nine vaccines have proved effective at protecting people from developing symptoms of COVID-19, the disease that can result from infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. It's not yet known, however, how well the inoculations prevent people from getting an asymptomatic infection or passing the virus on to others. Preliminary signs suggest they do at least some of both..

What is the source of you "question and answer" period?

 

[backinblue]

Interesting to see how people are using statistics throughout the discussions of Covid. Would say as a physician you are involved with people who die. Given my specialty like ER docs, intensivists and oncologists not infrequently. You’re able to keep emotional distance so you don’t burn out but often the ones that get you are the avoidable deaths.
The absence of compliance to public health measures and a well coordinated response has resulted in a significant number of avoidable deaths. To me this is heart breaking. I suspect non compliance to vaccination programs will lead to further avoidable deaths. This is heart breaking as well.
Discussions in the abstract are well and good but must say I look at the third leading cause of death in 2020 in the USA and lament and ponder on how many of these deaths were avoidable.

As I've said many times, you can always find a statistic to support any position you want to support. In my mind, people should do what they believe makes sense for them and their unique situation, weighing the risks and consequences. No general govt mandate can apply equally to everyone. Respectfully, because you are probably better qualified than most of us, what do you suggest should currently be done mitigate the COVID risks?

 

[JoePNW]

"You might consider it "worth it" if someone close to you, a loved one, was among the 500k folks who have passed away"

Straw man argument. The same logic could be used to ban cars due to traffic accidents.

Hey thats a good idea.. ban drivers licenses and force everyone to take public mandated transit.. who cares what it does to the economy, or if it destroys families, or drives up the suicide rate and creates an epidemic of depression and mental illness.

You would be in favor of that if you knew someone who was killed in a car accident!!!

 

[backinblue]

Like I said, we make our own decision based on the risks and consequences. If you drive, you know what those are. There are laws that make it safer. It doesn't have to be banned because it kills some who chose to do it, whether or not it is their fault.

 

[Hippocampus]

BinB whole heartedly agree with you. I personally ignore governmental mandates. My state has “opened up” but I continue to distance, mask, limit exposure outside my house and will continue to do so until Ro is persistently below 1 for quite awhile.
The CDC site and the John’s Hopkins site are quite good. You do need to go further then graphics tracking deaths and new cases. There’s data down to counties so you can look at where you live and where you may travel. There’s now extensive data allowing you a sense of your personal risk of various outcomes given your particular demographics. There are plots of the various Rs , important variant penetration by region and case fatality rate in your county. There’s even information as too the relative risk of different activities for infection.
So if you’re altruistic regardless of your age and risk factors you would follow all public health measures and vaccinate ASAP until R is sustained at a very low level. If you’re more ego centric you would change behaviors and activities down to a risk you accept now on a daily basis (driving, boating, skiing etc.) Not stressed is risk of a serious AE from vaccine seems very low and well below the risks you accept on a daily basis.

 

[JoePNW]

The children in moms car ? The pedestrian on the sidewalk? ...like I said..strawman argument.

 

[Hippocampus]

In terms of vaccine roll out. It’s been correctly pointed out c19 has no knowledge of borders, countries or continents. On a global scale roll has been slow and likely will be slow in the future and incomplete. Viewing this epidemiologically this is unfortunate. No judgment was made in my prior post. “Just the facts ma’am”.

 

[backinblue]

The children in moms car ? The pedestrian on the sidewalk? ...like I said..strawman argument.

Society as a whole has accepted that those risks are acceptably low enough to allow driving. If you personally don't like those risks, don't drive. If you don't accept the low risk of a reaction to the vaccine, don't get it. You can't and shouldn't want the govt to make every decision for you.

 

[JoePNW]

Society as a whole has accepted that those risks are acceptably low enough to allow driving. If you personally don't like those risks, don't drive. If you don't accept the low risk of a reaction to the vaccine, don't get it. You can't and shouldn't want the govt to make every decision for you.

Yes thats what I'm saying. But the passport will be "optional" as in.. if you want to travel, go shopping, have a bank account... buy property... you will need the vaccine passport.. but hey its "optional"
Lol... for whatever reason its being pushed hard.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

For those that want to get the vaccine and/or wear a mask. Feel free to comply. However you have no right to force me to comply.

BTW the restrictions placed by States are NOT law.

 

[FWT]

Quote of the day:

“Either masks work or they don’t work, but it can’t be both. If they do work then the lock-us-down-forever folk should continue to wear them and thus be protected from everyone else. If masks don’t work, then why the hell were they ever mandated in the first place?“

Pretty much sums it up. And is equally true for vaccines. If you like it , get it, and you have no need to worry about me.

 

[Nomad Willy]

For those that want to get the vaccine and/or wear a mask. Feel free to comply. However you have no right to force me to comply.

BTW the restrictions placed by States are NOT law.

But ASD,
What about you giving me a virus?
The gov that you so dislike is trying to keep people safe. As many as possible.

FWT,
The South Koreans are team players. We should follow their lead.
When there’s a spike they bang lock down. You see downtown pics w nobody in sight. Then the lockdown is suspended and all the people come out .... ALL w masks as it’s the mandate.

If this virus is to kill us off the Koreans would still be in lock step w each other. Doing what their told.

I’m not say’in we should become Korean but re the virus we should lean a bit toward their behavior. Smart people see what’s best for them and take that route.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

But ASD,
What about you giving me a virus?
The gov that you so dislike is trying to keep people safe. As many as possible.

If you are concerned get the vaccine and wear 2 masks or don't raft up to ASD.

Otherwise its on you.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I just don't get the anti-mask fears. Government is taking over with masks? A doctor should not have to wear a mask because of his constitutional right to spit during surgery? Even if the law allowed that, you would trust that doctor? How about no speed limits in residential areas because it infringes on one's right to drive as fast as they want? Aren't speed limits another crazy government infringement?

Governments (in this case, we the people) have all kinds of common sense limitations on actions to improve health, safety, and welfare. At what point would the anti-maskers think government intrusion is okay. Is it permissible to limit the right to defecate where ever one wants? Isn't that an infringement on one's freedom of expression?

It is just a mask that is effective in slowing the spread. It isn't nearly as burdensome as speed limits in residential areas or sanitary restrictions on excrement. Maybe there's an anti-toilet crowd that I'm not aware of (hope I didn't just give the anti-maskers another idea).

Somebody stated it above. If you can't function in the community because of democratically levied safety rules, just stay home.