Wanted to introduce myself and my new boat

[captmorgan23]

Hi,*

My name is Morgan Preston and this is my new boat. I am new to Trawlers but have been working towards this for awhile. I am interested in what you think and if you have any input on my new wooden beast. This boat is extremely well documented and I have every piece of paper and reciept on this boat since the day it was born in 1968.*

-- Edited by captmorgan23 on Wednesday 30th of September 2009 11:40:22 AM

-- Edited by captmorgan23 on Wednesday 30th of September 2009 11:41:08 AM

 

[Tom.B]

I hate it and I think you need to sell it right away for a Boston Whaler 16'!

(ok... not really)

Greetings from the other new guy here. Thank you for replacing me upon my throne of shame as the newest n00b.

Wood huh? Sounds interesting. Lovely boat.

 

[Codger2]

Morgan:

Welcome to the club!* I love your boat and the very obvious care and attention to detail that you put forth. Please inform us as to the make & model.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Nice rig! What does she have under the hood?

 

[captmorgan23]

This boat is a 1968 Cole. Built in Tacoma at Kazlan and Cole. It has a single Cummins hanging out in the bilge.

I have searched all over the web and have found nothing on this particular boat builder, but have all logs and every receipt from the very beginning. It has been babied through its life but according to the logs has made a few trips on the inside passage, and has done extensive cruising in the San Juans and all throughout the Puget Sound. It is anchored on a moorage in Matts Matts bay up in Port Ludlow, and I am getting her ready to cruise for another 40 years. There really is not a lot to do but learn all the systems, and tinker around on a little top side painting, as well as getting some electronics updated. The engine has 7000 hours on her and has been meticulously documented and maintained, so hopefully I can get another 7000 out of her....so wish me luck, and anyone with any input is more than welcome to jump in. I am glad I found a group of like minded individuals whom I can lean on for info.


MP

 

[FF]

IF I purchased a used boat , any used boat I would do a bit of Preventive Maint.

Pull an oil sample on the engine & tranny and hope for the best.

First I would yank the injectors and send them out for testing ($5.00ea) and rebuild those that are poor.

I would have a wrench perform a compression/ blowdown test and also see how much leakage into the oil sump there is.

Torque the head , and check every engine bolt you can reach

Next* would be to get 2 part** cooling system cleaner (Truck place) and follow the instructions, as who knows weather real diesel antifreez and ONLY distilled water were used?

When the cooling system was clean, I would lift the engine and use a good grade of modern isolation mounts , remove any ceramic seals and their dangerous bellows and water supply requirements.

The modern Duramax or equal would handle shaft sealing .

I would then replace every hose and belt on the engine , and any Jabsco style impellers and at least install a new thermostat , a new block water pump if going out in the briney blue..

Should there be rubber impellers I would fit a proper metal* Y style strainer to catch any future lost rubber as it leaves the water pump..

Then I would get a good brand of DIESEL antifreez and only distilled water and re fill the cooling system.

If not in heavy freezing areas I would go 40% antifreez and 60% water.

Adjust the valves per mfg specs.

And a HOT oil and filter change would be done , IF a HOT change is a hassle to do , install a method that makes it a snap.

Under engine valve , if you can reach , or installed oil waste pump and bucket.

This would be minimum that would let me go inshore distant cruising , and not expect to end up with a Sea Tow line* on the bow.

Yes, others have done far less , but what lets you sleep at night is the requirement.

FF

-- Edited by FF on Friday 2nd of October 2009 04:24:33 AM

 

[Baker]

First off, Welcome aboard. Secondly, Cole may have built the boat but looks like Mr. Monk may be the designer. If you are familiar with the Roughwater 37, they are practically identical right down to the layout. Anyway, VERY nice boat. I have always been a fan of the Roughwater 37 which would make me a fan of your boat.

-- Edited by Baker on Friday 2nd of October 2009 04:25:48 AM

 

[captmorgan23]

The actual engine is a Cummins C-160M. I have a question concerning FF's remark-" remove any ceramic seals and their dangerous bellows and water supply requirements."

Would someone mind filling me in on what is meant here?.....hope this is not a stupid question.

Thanks in advance.

MP

 

[Marin]

I suspect he may be talking about shaft log seals? Frankly, you can spend more money "preparing" your boat than you paid for it if you follow every piece of advice you get. If you are intending to set off for New Zealand in your boat then doing all the things FF suggests might make sense. But since I expect you are more interested in exploring the San Juans, Gulf Islands, Desolation Sound, Inside Passage, and SE Alaska, I think you can probably forgo things like lifting the engine and installing new mounts right now unless the ones currently installed are shot.

There's armchair theory and there's reality. I suspect the reality is that you have a fine, well-looked after boat that, like all boats, will have things that need to be done to it but that is basically sound and ready to go cruising. I'm assuming you had the boat and engine surveyed before you bought it, so if the surveyor(s) didn't find anything major that needs immediate attention, there probably isn't anything major that needs immediate attention.

Learn the boat's systems, read the engine and transmission operations/maintenance manuals, keep an eye on things, follow the recommended maintenance schedules, and operate the boat in the manner in which it was originally meant to be operated.

And have fun. You're not going to the moon here. You're just going to cruise around some islands and enjoy being out on the water.

If you've owned a boat before, power or sail, you will know that there will always be new things for you to fix. Refrigerators will crap out, toilets will need to be overhauled, hose connections will leak, pumps will fail, and on and on and on. So don't get all wrapped around the axle trying to deal with things that haven't happened yet. Take the challenges as they come up, get advice from credible (aka professional) people when faced with a problem you can't figure out on your own, read about the stuff you don't know much about, and above all, apply liberal doses of logic and common sense to the whole operation.

If you do that, the chances are that your boat will serve you well for as long as you need her to.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 2nd of October 2009 11:15:45 PM

 

[captmorgan23]

The good thing about it is the logs were meticulously kept and so I know at what point a lot of things were done as far as maintenance. Many of the things FF mentioned in his post have been done all along the way, so it is my job to continue the care that this old girl has enjoyed and since she has been cared for so well I can assume I have many good years left to enjoy cruising, and maybe someone after me. This boat seems to have averaged about 2.5 gallons an hour, does this seem right for this boat (it compares to a Roughwater 37)?

MP

 

[FF]

Preventive Maint (PM)is the realization that things eventually wear out, have a known service life.

The question then becomes ,

Is it easier , cheaper and less hassle to replace items you Know will fail while in your home port or while underway?

For Phil its easy , with only 4 hours away from a dock every year , the risk is reasonable. .

"Exploring the San Juans, Gulf Islands, Desolation Sound, Inside Passage, and SE Alaska,"

might take a bit more than 4 hours and could result in a long tow or worse..

The comfort level for boaters goes from "If it Ain't Broke , Don't Touch IT", an oil change every few years , to the higher level that is my preference.

When costs are a concern, PM ,at dockside where one may search for a month or two to obtain everything before the service begins is usually cheaper than having parts flown in air freight to some boatyard that has GOT YOU.

Not much controversial about most of my reccommended "new boat to me" PM, the desire to replace the engine mounts is the engineering is far better today , and the builder probably selected the origionals on cost , not performance.And they do die.

The ceramic shaft seals and their bellows ,that if breached will admit more water than most boats can pump , is removed as more modern shaft seals are far less risk and more reliable.

Seek a comfort level you can live with.

As an ex "bus driver" , I certainly do.

FF

 

[Nomad Willy]

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is positively dangerous** .. not to mention dumb. Good point about the engine mounts FF. Yanmar told me I needed to replace my Yanmar engine mounts every two years. Yanmars are extremely soft and probably break down faster than most but new mounts are better and one does not need to "raise" the engine to replace mounts. Raise two opposite corner mounts as high as they will go, lower another corner mount and it's opposite will be clear to remove.
John, it does look a bit Monkish but Monk boats have curved sides, more flair and as I recall flat transoms.

Eric Henning

 

[Marin]

nomadwilly wrote:

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is positively dangerous** .. not to mention dumb.

Eric, I would say that is one of the most unreaslistic statements I've seen you make to date.* Where do you draw the line?* Do you change a perfectly operating raw water pump just because "someday" it might fail?* Do you tear down the engine on a new-to-you boat and replace all the bearings, the camshaft, etc. because someday they might fail?* Hell, why not replace the entire engine as soon as you take possession of your "new" used boat, because, after all, it's wearing out and so someday will probably fail.* And you know all that wiring is going to corrode someday so you'd better rip all the wiring out of the boat and replace it before you dare to venture outside your slip.* And you know that perfectly operating toilet is going to wear out its seals someday, so you'd better replace that too, while you're at it.

If a boat you bought was truly a wreck, there might be some point in doing some of these things.* Otherwise you determine the condition of the boat's components as best you (or a surveyor or mechanic) can, replace things that are obviously nearing the end of their service lives or have already failed, and use the boat.* There's a difference between performing required and preventative (at a realistic level) maintenance along with keeping yourself aware of the components of the boat, and ignoring everything until something actually fails.* But if something that will potentially wear out or fail--- which describes pretty much every component on the boat--- is in good condition now, it's truly "dumb" to replace it just because someday it's gonna need replacing.

As I said earlier, there's armchair theory and there's reality.* The reality is that you buy a boat, fix anything that needs fixing, and start using it.* You perform the required maintenance on the things that have service intervals, like oil and filter changes and so on, and when things on the boat show signs of needing maintenance or replacement, you maintain or replace them. It'd be a good idea to carry spares for those easily-changed components like water pumps and such that, if they failed unexpectedly, you couldn't move the boat until they were replaced.* But if people followed some of the advice I see posted here, nobody would be using their boats at all because they'd all be too busy replacing every item on the boat that could possibly fail within their lifetimes.* Get real

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 3rd of October 2009 12:05:54 PM

 

[Codger2]

Marin:
I think your opening statement is uncalled for. NomadWilly isn't advocating changing everything in a used boat to new! He's simply suggesting that there are things that are suspect that should be looked at when one buys a used boat and the maintenance* history is not known. I know many guys who change the raw water impeller and carry the old one as a spare.

Remember, the "Guru" status is assigned by the number of posts one submits, not to the ones who "google" the most and then post. (End of rant and frustration.)

 

[captmorgan23]

As I mentioned before the maintenance as well as logs and receipts have been meticulously kept up through the years. I am appreciative of the excellent advice provided about the replacement before failure of certain items , but much of what was mentioned has already been done , documented and engine hours recorded. The shaft seal issue is somewhat controversial to me as there are two camps on the new waterless shaft seals, as when they fail it is catostrophic. The shaft seals are supposedly maintenance free and thus gives that false sense of security and then is not checked as much as when one has the ceramic seals that need to be repacked. This particular maintenance was just done. I am very comfortable with the mechanical integrity of this boat because of the almost anal obsessive way this has been maintained and logged(I have never seen anything like this attention on any vehicle or boat I have ever owned). So I guess that says something for guys like FF who spend a lot of time making sure everything is perfecto...and then guys like me get to buy their used but maintenance wise new boats. I have seen boats that have 200 hours that aren't even close to the quality of my 40 year old boat.
Thanks all very much for the excellent advice, I will take a little bit from each of you and will put it to work for my benefit and will hopefully be able to offer my advice and opinions to someone else as I gain experience.

 

[Steve]

The boat looks great and with a name like that you can't go wrong. Is that a mount for an outboard on the swim platform?
Welcome to the forum from another "food boat".
Steve, on
"Gumbo"

 

[captmorgan23]

Also wanted to mention that according to the boat yard documents where this boat was built,it is an Ed Monk designed hull.
Also thanks to the poster who turned me on to the Roughwater 37 's, this is almost identical including the layout inside and these were also Monk designed hulls.

MP

-- Edited by captmorgan23 on Sunday 4th of October 2009 01:04:47 AM

 

[Marin]

SeaHorse II wrote:

NomadWilly isn't advocating changing everything in a used boat to new! He's simply suggesting that there are things that are suspect that should be looked at when one buys a used boat and the maintenance* history is not known.

i've got no quarrel at all with that statement but that's not what he said.* He simply condemned the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy, which I feel is a very unrealistic position.

As to the guru status, I didn't assign it, I don't claim it, and I don't pretend to be it.* I know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know.* There are people on the Grand Banks owners forums like Bob Lowe and Mike Negley who have forgotten more about boats and boating than I'll ever know.*

What I have learned in forty-plus years of flying airplanes and thirty-some years of running boats of various kinds that logic and common sense will get a person through just about anything they encounter.* There is a lot of armchair posturing and pontificating in aviation, boating, and every other occupation one can think of.* I'm a lot more interested in reality than in a bunch of theoretical but totally impractical advice.* But that's just me.* Some people are more interested in theories than reality.

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

OK Marin I'm real now. Never thought of that literal and extreme stuff. Iv'e got a year and a half on my sea water pump w my single engined boat and I was thinking yesterday that it would be a good idea to replace it. It ain't broke but I think I should replace it before it becomes broke up Behm Canal. I used the word philosophy. I don't need to "draw the line". It's a philosophy to fix things even if they aren't broken as time and money permits and as prioritires dictate, and no I don't change the headlights on my car every year as preventative maintance.
Hey John** ..* you were right** ..* it is a Monk.

Eric Henning

 

[Marin]

A year and a half on a raw water pump doesn't seem like very much at all to me.* I have no idea how much time was on the pumps when we bought our boat, but we ran them for nine years before changing to a better design even though the stock pumps were still running fine (I changed impellers several times during those nine years, however).

Does the raw water pump on your type of engine have a reputation for being fairly short-lived?

 

[Baker]

captmorgan23 wrote:

Also wanted to mention that according to the boat yard documents where this boat was built,it is an Ed Monk designed hull.
Also thanks to the poster who turned me on to the Roughwater 37 's, this is almost identical including the layout inside and these were also Monk designed hulls.

MP

-- Edited by captmorgan23 on Sunday 4th of October 2009 01:04:47 AM

No problem mate!!!! *I am willing to bet this is the precursor to the Roughwater 37 much like "Spray" was to the Grand Banks line.

*


-- Edited by Baker on Sunday 4th of October 2009 04:20:55 AM

 

[FF]

Where do you draw the line? Do you change a perfectly operating raw water pump just because "someday" it might fail? at 7,000 hours , why not?The "old "operating one is a perfect spare.



PM is the art of understanding that nothing lasts "forever" and some parts belts hoses oil antifreez are maint items best done before the of their useful service life..

EVERYTHING has a useful service life , which can usually be estimated by the quality of the maint and past experience.

"Does the raw water pump on your type of engine have a reputation for being fairly short-lived?"

Raw water pumps depend mostly on the suspended solids there pumping. Crossing a nice clean deep ocean will frequently result in great service life , shallow operation in sandy water (think New Jersey or the ICW) will reduce the service life.

A look at most Mfg sites will give an idea (500hrs for me) how long a rubber impeller may last.

MY way is to accept the danger and simply plan for it. We use Y strainers after any rubber pump and carry a spare impeller. WHEN it departs , at least the chunks are all in a strainer , no sweat to clean.

"Do you tear down the engine on a new-to-you boat and replace all the bearings, the camshaft, etc. because someday they might fail?"

The little flee aircraft ALL replace engines on time of service , usually 2000hrs , BY LAW.

Their actual experience has shown that ,yes indeed the bearings , and any other part of the engine MUSTY be examined/replaced on a regular basis .

Of course there is no Sea Tow in the air , only Gravity , what ever that is.

FF

 

[Marin]

FF wrote:


"Does the raw water pump on your type of engine have a reputation for being fairly short-lived?"

Raw water pumps depend mostly on the suspended solids there pumping. Crossing a nice clean deep ocean will frequently result in great service life , shallow operation in sandy water (think New Jersey or the ICW) will reduce the service life.

A look at most Mfg sites will give an idea (500hrs for me) how long a rubber impeller may last.

I understand about the potentially short life of flexible impellers depending on what they're pumping.* But the wording of Eric's post implies that he is thinking of changing out the entire pump after a relatively few number of hours.* This is what prompted my question.

 

[captmorgan23]

I've decided to pull the engine out and replace it as it may fail someday.



JUST KIDDING.....Swear to god I was joking........don't want to fan the flames too much, might start a full on forest fire in here.

MP

 

[Codger2]

Morgan:** That's not funny! Everything that you read here is to be taken seriously and accepted as fact! No kidding allowed!* <grin>

 

[captmorgan23]

Sorry......I'll keep my sarcastic and cynical mouth to myself...........'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'
'I'm here to learn'


<writing 100 times on the chalkboard>


MP

 

[Marc1]

I thought Fred's list of to-do was on the money.

Maintenance on any piece of equipment is designed to keep the machine in working order without any brake donws.
Maintenance is based on the expected average life of each part.

Each part as it reaches it's average life expectancy is TOSSED OUT regardless of how perfect it works and replaced. In fact one would hope that every part that is replaced during maintenance is in perfect order. That means that a catastrophe has been avoided. To replace water hoses and find that they brake apart in your hands is a statement of neglect and pot luck. Neither desirable.

In the case of a second hand boat, there is no list with dates on each component of the motor and seals and related parts. So it is down to a guess game. What is more likely to fail first.
The list supplied is a string of parts that will need attention right now or in the near future. The only point to consider is for the owner to ponder if he can spend the money to do it now, or needs to stagger such along a brief or longer period. The question is not if but when.
Since we are not the owners nor want to debate his budged, the list to put forward is one that does not take into consideration the money part of things, and such is good advise. The rest is an accountant's decision.
In my opinion anyway.


-- Edited by Marc1 on Sunday 11th of October 2009 11:04:40 PM

 

[Marin]

Marc1 wrote:

The only point to consider is for the owner to ponder if he can spend the money to do it now, or needs to stagger such along a brief or longer period. The question is not if but when.

The obvious solution is simple--- you buy a brand new boat when the first replacement interval for the shortest-lived component on the boat comes due.* That way you never risk a failure of anything.

*

 

[Marc1]

<q>Marin wrote:
The obvious solution is simple--- you buy a brand new boat when the first replacement interval for the shortest-lived component on the boat comes due.* That way you never risk a failure of anything.</q>

Yes, I agree that such would be a possibility and in fact it is done with some equipment less complex than a boat where the failure of one component makes the whole thing obsolete. It could be an option for a boat as well. It sound absurd only because of the money factor. May not sound as absurd to Bill Gates. So we are talking about disposable income and not mechanics.
In fact most people who own a car do just that. When it gets to 100,000Km you sell it even if it is in good nick and buy a new one.

Yet maintenance has nothing to do with replacing a unit and all to do with keeping it!

So back to maintenance recomendations. Say you know that the average life expentancy of your engine mounts is 5 years. 5 years are over and they look just fine to you. The next step you take will be a matter of risk taking. You can choose to dismiss and take the full risk of failure. Or you half the risk and buy the parts and store them on board. Now your risk is only the need to change engine mounts at high sea when they will fail, possibly during a storm.
In the case of your on board toaster, If the life expentancy of a toaster not made in China is 3 years, you may assumethe risk of not replacing the toaster since you don't mind going without toast for one trip.

It is all a matter of how much risk you are willing to take. Statistical observation is the art of predicting the future based on the past.

*


-- Edited by Marc1 on Monday 12th of October 2009 12:08:34 AM

 

[FF]

Buying a brand new boat might get a bunch of Zero Time equipment ,

but the "price" is the 20+% Builder markup added to the 20%+ dealers markup.

Considering the price of new boats that could easily be $100,000 or more , that could buy a lot of hose for a non new boat.

FF