Watch for dead sea lion bodies

[rgano]

News is that to control the salmon-eating seal lions in the Columbia River area, killing of many of them has been approved.

 

[MurrayM]

Funny, isn't it, that when Europeans turned up on this coast there were gazillions of salmon and everything else...then we started to 'manage' things. Me-thinks sea lions aren't the problem .

 

[psneeld]

But once an ecosystem is altered, sure sea lions can be the biggest problem.

Alaska still has gazillions of salmon...I hear Siberia does too.

 

[Russell Clifton]

Lots of the Chinook salmon caught in Alaska are Columbia River Fish from Washington. Many caught in BC also.

 

[MurrayM]

...and who altered the eco(ocean, forest, river, etc)systems?

 

[psneeld]

Lots of the Chinook salmon caught in Alaska are Columbia River Fish from Washington. Many caught in BC also.

I always learned Pacific Salmon return to the rivers they were born in.....after so many years at sea.

Most salmon caught in Alaska are fight off the river mouths....so I doubt they are anything but Alaska salmon.

 

[psneeld]

...and who altered the eco(ocean, forest, river, etc)systems?

really.....we all know who did but that wasn't your or my point of the required killing now to possibly fix things.

Are you suggesting we don't try?

 

[MurrayM]

really.....we all know who did but that wasn't your or my point of the required killing now to possibly fix things.

Are you suggesting we don't try?

Think the problem was damming or significantly altering the flow of the river, so the salmon are forced to gather in huge numbers below the restrictions.

Putting the river back to its natural flow might be a good start.

 

[psneeld]

And they are trying, but then you will complain how electricity is generated....or the cost of it.

Having an environmental background back to the 70's....I've heard all the angles.

Lessening a predator population may be the most effective....and quickest.

 

[MurrayM]

I always learned Pacific Salmon return to the rivers they were born in.....after so many years at sea.

Most salmon caught in Alaska are fight off the river mouths....so I doubt they are anything but Alaska salmon.

They do, but some make big sweeps down the coast first.

According to Haida oral history, when they first came to the coast (Haida Gwaii was joined to the mainland by a low plain and glaciers filled the mainland valleys) they used to put eggs from salmon bearing streams into baskets full of soaking wet moss and deposit the eggs into rivers and streams that had no salmon.

Point being...humans once helped salmon on this coast, maybe we can again.

 

[MurrayM]

And they are trying, but then you will complain how electricity is generated....or the cost of it.

Having an environmental background back to the 70's....I've heard all the angles.

You're jumping ahead...not going to follow.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Putting the river back to its natural flow might be a good start.

This from a man whose electric supplier is "BC Hydro."

 

[MurrayM]

This from a man whose electric supplier is "BC Hydro."

Sigh...

Yes, I am responsible for it all.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Funny, isn't it, that when Europeans turned up on this coast there were gazillions of salmon and everything else...then we started to 'manage' things. Me-thinks sea lions aren't the problem .

Murray as 2018 there were an estimated 4000 sea lions in the Columbia. Most but not all are California sea lions and like many others things from California they raise havoc in the PNW once they move here. I'm sure if you can convince the provincial government to accept the sea lions, The state and feds would gladly transport about 2000 to the mouth of the Skeena.

 

[MurrayM]

Again, sigh...

My point was, and is, that the sea lions are a function of modern humans 'managing' things.

Maybe instead of quick draw gunslinger jabs at me, you guys should ponder how to repair the damage done which has resulted in salmon being sitting ducks for sea lions.

 

[psneeld]

They do, but some make big sweeps down the coast first.

According to Haida oral history, when they first came to the coast (Haida Gwaii was joined to the mainland by a low plain and glaciers filled the mainland valleys) they used to put eggs from salmon bearing streams into baskets full of soaking wet moss and deposit the eggs into rivers and streams that had no salmon.

Point being...humans once helped salmon on this coast, maybe we can again.

Yes, I believe salmon can be " transplanted to different rivers and they migrate "past" areas of other salmon...but Columbia river salmon I doubt are remotely connected with or travel with Alaska salmon....

If anything, the Columbia River Salmon follow the Japanese Current past Alaska and BC to Washington...but again I don't think they travel that uniformly.

 

[MurrayM]

...but again I don't think they travel that uniformly.

Yup...reminds me of a quote...you cannot effectively manage something you do not understand.

 

[boatpoker]

...and who altered the eco(ocean, forest, river, etc)systems?

Sealions eating salmon is ok.
People eating salmon is tampering with the eco system ?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Murray,

“Managing” ... or raping?

In the 30’s there may have been 20 times as many salmon as there is now. Bears, Orcas, Sea lions and even man had plenty of salmon to eat. But man got greedy and the greed will continue until they are gone. It even looks like Bristol Bay will fade out in the interests of mining. The time when man starts to actually manage in the best interest of both is IMO far into the future.

 

[psneeld]

Funny, when I was in Alaska where salmon are tightly managed (seemingly well understood) they were quite plentiful.

Quick draw, gunslinger jabs? Knowing I won't change your mind, why would I waste my time when others may see quite plainly what I am suggesting?

 

[psneeld]

I spent some time enforcing high seas driftnetting by foreign fleets that were intercepting US salmon.

They were considered the biggest threat to Alaskan salmon populations at the time.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Again, sigh...

My point was, and is, that the sea lions are a function of modern humans 'managing' things.

Maybe instead of quick draw gunslinger jabs at me, ...

Murray,


Sorry if it sounded cheap, I too am a beneficiary of the Bonneville Power Authority, which brings me clean and remarkably cheap electricity to power my two electric cars and my air conditioning ( Thank gawd; it is 102f outside.)


I live with a 22 year old zealot and a middle-aged environmental attorney. These issues are constants in our conversation. My position is that nearly all "solutions" create new problems. Blow up the Columbia dams to save the salmon, burn more hydrocarbons.


The only significant improvements can come after population control, for which there seems little appetite. There is no point in attacking the size of our "carbon footprint" if we continue to produce more "carbon feet."

 

[Dawdler]

back to original post--you won't be seeing dead sea lion carcasses. the plan is to trap and euthanize them i believe

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Lessening a predator population may be the most effective....and quickest.

Agreed. Lessening the predator that uses the word predator. Maybe trapping and euthanasia?

 

[AlaskaProf]

back to original post--you won't be seeing dead sea lion carcasses. the plan is to trap and euthanize them i believe

Apparently doable.

 

[markpierce]

How does The Marine Mammal Protection Act work with this?

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

I spent some time enforcing high seas driftnetting by foreign fleets that were intercepting US salmon.

They were considered the biggest threat to Alaskan salmon populations at the time.

With the exception of Bristol Bay... Alaska commercial fisheries is having the worst year on record... My son is a commercial fisherman in SE, his catch this year is about 10% of what is normal for this time of year. The seiners are fairing equally as bad. This isn't blamed on sea lions but rather an unusually warm water temps in the gulf.

 

[Russell Clifton]

Back in the day the commercial fisherman controlled the seal and sea lion population. Worked just fine.

 

[AlaskaProf]

How does The Marine Mammal Protection Act work with this?

My attorney, who once had the NMFS, for a client, responded as she always does: "Why don't you look it up, Dear."


So here you go:


Jurisdiction for MMPA is shared by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) and the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). The Service’s Branch of Permits is responsible for issuing take permits when exceptions are made to MMPA.
In general, exceptions may be made for:

1. Pre-MMPA specimens taken before December 21, 1972
2. International Agreements entered into by the United States before December 21, 1972
3. Alaska natives
4. Scientific research, public display, enhancing the survival or recovery of a species, and incidental take in commercial fisheries
5. Waivers granted by the U.S. Government

This is a cursory summary from the Fish and Wildlife Service website, but I'm to lazy to read the entire statute. (PL 92-522)

 

[psneeld]

With the exception of Bristol Bay... Alaska commercial fisheries is having the worst year on record... My son is a commercial fisherman in SE, his catch this year is about 10% of what is normal for this time of year. The seiners are fairing equally as bad. This isn't blamed on sea lions but rather an unusually warm water temps in the gulf.

Agree....in the late 80s, early 90s scientists thought just a 2 degree rise in the Pacific forced crab to the Bearing Sea and salmon to proliferate. When I left in 92, crab was coming back closer to Kodiak and salmon was declining because the temp swing was downward.