When Does it Become Cost Prohibited?

[Bacchus]

Based on your post, it is a 33% step up!

Not to mention that the power generation plants will pollute less than the vehicles.

I'm not so sure that's true. Today's ICE vehicles have very tight emission limits that require catalytic converters. I dont think the same limits apply to stationary point source emissions.
As for nat gas plants being cleaner so would not gas powered vehicles and they provide many other benefits as well.
Typical "Green" proponents only talk about carbon footprint and ignore other hazardous materials.
"They (power plants) emit harmful pollutants, including mercury, non-mercury metallic toxics, acid gases, and organic air toxics such as dioxin. Power plants are currently the dominant emitters of mercury (50 percent), acid gases (over 75 percent) and many toxic metals (20-60 percent) in the United States."
Above doesn't include hazardous materials generated / released in the mining & battery manuf processes.

I'm not anti green but wish there was a balanced analysis that considered the total life cycle and considered all hazards not just a slanted view of carbon only.

 

[Bacchus]

Personally I'd like to see Govt entities practice what the preach!
Why isn't govt leading the charge with vehicles and construction?
Govt buys new vehicles every year and (I believe) turns over their fleet quicker than the avg consumer turns over their vehicles. Why unto govt switching their fleets over immediately.
Same thing for govt buildings... why aren't they being converted to more efficient, greener technologies to help manufacturers add volume & lower costs to the rest of consumers.

 

[FWT]

Let's not debate global warming, please. Opinions on that have been locked in solid for a long time now and few minds change. Those who believe will believe, and those that don't just won't. Inevitably it gets political fast.

One can hope for alternative energy and electric powered equipment vs gas / diesel based on a lot of other reasons, such as just operating cleanly, and hopefully soon to be more clearly cost-efficient. Those are worthy values in themselves.

I can't speak to FL locations, but I can say that on the Chesapeake I won over a local professional and vocal environmental activist. His living is made from advocacy. The issue is that whenever one is looking at a specific spot as an example one simply must understand the "subsidence". That is sinking of land, not a rise in water level. Its a real issue in certain spots of the Chesapeake, that is basically a river delta built from soils washing down the Susquehanna that are not especially stable, but it varies greatly from location to location. NOAA or similar measures it from satellite surveys periodically and publishes maps and tables. So a lot of the local examples used in the "proof" of water rising in fact were spots where the issue is subsidence, not a change in water level. I don't hear them screaming like they once did, but maybe they still do in forums out of my particular view.

 

[sunchaser]

I'm not anti green but wish there was a balanced analysis that considered the total life cycle and considered all hazards not just a slanted view of carbon only.

On this subject, the analysis is considered balanced if it fits one's personal point of view.

 

[Bacchus]

On this subject, the analysis is considered balanced if it fits one's personal point of view.

Not in my mind... I'm open minded if it is complete and scientifically factual.

 

[Simi 60]

Yes you can but what I was talking about is a system that will power a 1200 square foot house and above completely, without any noticeable change in someone’s daily activities. That is when it becomes cost prohibitive to most.

So spend $800, go totally insane and spend $1200 for 3x the panels.

We run a 240v boat
180 litre Hot water system, 4 fridge/freezers (only had one on dirt) washing machine, still, electric kettle, microwave, induction cooktop, pressure cooker, piemaker, vacuum cleaner, 42 and 36 inch tv, 2x 23 inch monitors, 2 PC , powertools whenever needed plus stuff I've missed.

All of that runs (at a pinch) off of 2.5 kw of solar panels.9x 270w
28 as in the listing is a lot more than 9

 

[Bacchus]

Power plant emissions are significant but at least headed in the right direction.

Power plants are the largest source of greenhouse gas pollution in the United States, accounting for more than one-quarter of all domestic greenhouse gas emissions.Oct 6, 2021

https://www.epa.gov/ghgreporting/ghgrp-power-plants

I have to wonder if it will continue to decline as demand increases to replace ICE vehicles with EVs... is it even conceivable the added capacity can all come from green sources that don't add to the emissions?

 

[Simi 60]

Need to see a lot more of this

If we ever move back into a dirt house it'll have as much of its 800m2 block shaded in 2nd hand panels as I can get
And a monster lifepo4 (or the next best thing) battery build
Off grid near inner city living

 

[BandB]

Need to see a lot more of this

If we ever move back into a dirt house it'll have as much of its 800m2 block shaded in 2nd hand panels as I can get
And a monster lifepo4 (or the next best thing) battery build
Off grid near inner city living

Do you know if it's financially feasible there with a reasonable payback or is it just a matter of people doing it anyway?

 

[Simi 60]

Do you know if it's financially feasible there with a reasonable payback or is it just a matter of people doing it anyway?

I think at the start it was borderline, systems were expensive
But now they are touting cheap systems, not sure what payback is if plugging back into grid.

I would prefer my own solar and battery - no connection to grid at all.
Works fine on the boat so would be easier on land.

Heres some info
I haven't looked into it for dirt

Best Solar Feed-In Tariffs in Australia
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/solar/a-comparison-of-solar-feed-in-tariffs/

An idea on new solar pricing

7.7kW Package
Tier 1 solar panels
with a 25-year warranty.
Wi-Fi enabled inverter
with a 10-year warranty.
Reliable installation service.
Ideal for medium
sized homes.
Starting at $3,499*

https://www.solarpowernation.com.au...Hmo9xjGnaHaeKK-23t0QTP9b4OyShptoaAhSBEALw_wcB

Given that average electricity bills are around $1000 a year it seems a no brainer to go solar
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/average-electricity-bills/#qld

 

[sunchaser]

Power plants are the largest source of greenhouse gas pollution in the United States, accounting for more than one-quarter of all domestic greenhouse gas emissions.?

US Government studies show that plastics will add more CO2 to atmosphere than coal by 2030. As viewed by the Chinese, nuclear power is their salvation long term but short term coal plants continue to be built.

Non government evaluations are stunning when forecasting where power will come from as roughly 3% per year replacement of petro fueled cars by EVs occurs. Stunning in that new power generation is required but badly lagging in reality for a variety of reasons.

Just as Russia has held Europe hostage for energy China does same to US in a different way. Back to windmills and solar panels again, where are they manufactured?

 

[SteveK]

Water levels rising. Are they expected to rise the same amount worldwide.
Locally I have noticed that the winter storms at peak high tide are getting higher more than a mere inches. Anyone care to comment on how the shift of the north pole, a tilt of the axis and the orbit of the moon affects sea levels.
A chunk of Antarctica broke off, is it headed for warm water, any predictions?

 

[KnotYet]

US Government studies show that plastics will add more CO2 to atmosphere than coal by 2030. As viewed by the Chinese, nuclear power is their salvation long term but short term coal plants continue to be built.

Non government evaluations are stunning when forecasting where power will come from as roughly 3% per year replacement of petro fueled cars by EVs occurs. Stunning in that new power generation is required but badly lagging in reality for a variety of reasons.

Just as Russia has held Europe hostage for energy China does same to US in a different way. Back to windmills and solar panels again, where are they manufactured?

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/best-american-solar-panel-manufacturers
https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/wind-manufacturing-and-supply-chain

Again, these are commodities just like the petroleum they are replacing.
Worldwide manufacturing with worldwide demand and market determined prices.

 

[sunchaser]

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/best-american-solar-panel-manufacturers
https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/wind-manufacturing-and-supply-chain

Again, these are commodities just like the petroleum they are replacing.
Worldwide manufacturing with worldwide demand and market determined prices.

Good info, thanks. Hopefully the US manufacturers of wind turbines will continue to expand production, roughly a doubling every 5 years is needed.

 

[BandB]

Water levels rising. Are they expected to rise the same amount worldwide.
Locally I have noticed that the winter storms at peak high tide are getting higher more than a mere inches. Anyone care to comment on how the shift of the north pole, a tilt of the axis and the orbit of the moon affects sea levels.
A chunk of Antarctica broke off, is it headed for warm water, any predictions?

Not only expected to, but already have. Storms worsening due to combination of warmer and higher water.

 

[O C Diver]

So the next question is who's going to force India, China and others to clean up their act? I watch everyone soapboxing about what the USA needs to do, but it's a global environment. If the really bad polluting countries aren't forced to clean up their act, will it really matter. One can look at the underground coal fires in China and think, if they're not going to take on that challenge, are they going to do anything else?

Ted

 

[Simi 60]

So the next question is who's going to force India, China and others to clean up their act? I watch everyone soapboxing about what the USA needs to do, but it's a global environment. If the really bad polluting countries aren't forced to clean up their act, will it really matter. One can look at the underground coal fires in China and think, if they're not going to take on that challenge, are they going to do anything else?

Ted

Well, all your "stuff" is made in china so it's obvious they will be big polluters because of that
But, I think you will find they have a greater uptake of electric vehicles and clean energy than the US so I would think given the first part of my answer they are doing better than most.

Also bear in mind that the US and most of the western world got where they are/were due to cheap or free labour , bad environmental practices and dirty fuel, is it really fair to deny other emerging economies that same opportunity?
And no, I don't advocate it but I do understand that is unfair to say "don't do as we do, do what we say"

 

[O C Diver]

Well, all your "stuff" is made in china so it's obvious they will be big polluters because of that
But, I think you will find they have a greater uptake of electric vehicles and clean energy than the US so I would think given the first part of my answer they are doing better than most.

Think the simple point you're missing is that they are building more coal fired power plants as it's a resource that they have.

Ted

 

[Capt Ray]

$3.95 / gallon for diesel today on dock...

I filled up on the ICW today $3.95/gallon!

Details below:

https://shellerina.com/2022/03/26/3-95-gallon-diesel-icw-mm-383-7/

Also nearby:
mm346 Myrtle Beach YC is at $4.15... We are tied up at Osprey Marina who wants well over $5 per gallon. So there is a wide range in different fuel costs here in SC.

 

[O C Diver]

I filled up on the ICW today $3.95/gallon!

Details below:

https://shellerina.com/2022/03/26/3-95-gallon-diesel-icw-mm-383-7/

Also nearby:
mm346 Myrtle Beach YC is at $4.15... We are tied up at Osprey Marina who wants well over $5 per gallon. So there is a wide range in different fuel costs here in SC.

I have been looking at prices from Norfolk to Fort Myers. It seems some of the higher volume marinas (Osprey and New River as an example) got stuck buying fuel at a higher spiked price. I'm assuming that the wholesale price has dropped some sticking places like Osprey with very high fuel cost. New River has since gotten another delivery and their price has come down measurably. Feel sorry for Osprey as I usually overnight there and take on a token hundred gallons to help support their business. Hope they get another delivery before I get there.

Ted

 

[darkside]

China is doing plenty to tidy up. However the saying goes "there is no such thing as a small problem in China" They have a lot to do, no mistake, but for sure they are trying.

Their latest wind turbines are 156m in diameter, the pivot 170m off the ground.

On EV's there are lots of cars but as BnB alluded to, it's heavy vehicles that matter.

Last year 95% of the world's heavy electric vehicles were in China.
There were more electric buses in Shenzhen than there were in Europe.
Europe is catching up, but China is the dominant supplier of both the trucks and buses, as well as the key components for the various competing western manufacturers.

Oh and diesel is around NZD2.10 per litre here, or USD5.80/usg

 

[BandB]

I have been looking at prices from Norfolk to Fort Myers. It seems some of the higher volume marinas (Osprey and New River as an example) got stuck buying fuel at a higher spiked price. I'm assuming that the wholesale price has dropped some sticking places like Osprey with very high fuel cost. New River has since gotten another delivery and their price has come down measurably. Feel sorry for Osprey as I usually overnight there and take on a token hundred gallons to help support their business. Hope they get another delivery before I get there.

Ted

Also some of the lower volume marinas purchased before the increase. Tells you something about how long their fuel sits in their tanks.

 

[BruceK]

Hippo
Like barking dogs, some (not all) home centric windmills make screeching humming noises but are never heard by the owners. Many zoning laws were written long ago when windmills were common for filling livestock tanks. Banning farm animals and windmills from suburban areas seemed to mean gentrification had arrived.

Get a large group of neighbors and sign a petition about the "ravages" of climate change. Then go to your town council meetings and open floor extol the virtues of windmills without tilting too much. Don't mention you sold your sailboat and bought a diesel burner though.

This may be of interest. It`s said "hard cases make bad law" but here, the noise maker owners sued the manufacturer,winning maybe 10-12M because of the noise defects,pocketing the $ without fixing the defective wind generator.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-25/bald-hills-wind-farm-to-pay-damages/100938656

 

[KnotYet]

Think the simple point you're missing is that they are building more coal fired power plants as it's a resource that they have.

Ted

The U.S. uses 2/3 of the energy that China does so of course our actions matter.
The more we reduce our pollution the more China's lesser efforts become the
problem in need of a solution.

 

[BruceK]

Think the simple point you're missing is that they are building more coal fired power plants as it's a resource that they have.

Ted

Is it? I understand their coal is low grade low heat output. They used buy the good stuff from us until they banned us as a supplier,save for iron ore they can`t get elsewhere (which they turn into munitions etc). Rumor is they still buy our coal 2nd hand. Coal price went berserk with the sad events in Europe, up to $400 a ton. Ukraine killed another Russian general.

 

[NEtrawler58]

On the bright side, some of us don't have to move but will have waterfront property in the future!

 

[Hippocampus]

Really surprised by the payback numbers. Being new construction was able to foam insulate the house, use current window/door technologies and wrapping. So was able to achieve a HERS rating better than 95% of new construction. Our state gives you a bump for getting such a favorable rating. Added about 10% to the cost of the house. Our HVAC costs are low. Due to geothermal the cost is electricity to run the pumps and MERV 13 filters twice a year. We leave the house at 68 all year round even though we don’t occupy it for 6-8 months a year. During the months of occupation often gone for weeks. So the house is self sufficient in our absence and we make enough solar we sell back continuously to the grid. We aren’t in the house a lot so our electricity usage is low.
Rough costs were ~$60k for geo and $35k for solar. Net costs after rebates and tax credits (including HERS credit) was ~$35k. Combined costs for electricity and propane or natural gas or oil and maintenance if we didn’t do the current set up would average ~$12k-$15k/yr. given size of house if we left it at 68. We moved in July 2019 but preordered and paid of all supplies before starting build. (All purchases completed in 2018). We lucked out as supplies were bought before the rapid acceleration of costs of building supplies (especially wood and windows/sliders/doors) but while the tax and rebate programs were still very favorable. House was built cash which permitted some further discounts. Don’t know current economics. Also don’t know what utilities will currently pay on current buy back contracts. Think when our current contract runs out it maybe less favorable.
As I firmly believe it’s expensive to be poor. Goal is to not be rich but rather just not be poor. Problem is to have the wherewithal to build or retrofit a house sufficiently that you are selling power back. You need that level of insulation and design features and sufficient income from your sale to the grid to make it work. In our case the incentives made it work plus being new construction. That’s a small fraction of housing stock. If retrofitting to he same level costs might even be double (removing oil tanks, heating an AC, re insulation, replacing all windows, sliders and doors etc.)
So don’t see all houses converting to geo and solar. Only see it occurring as existing housing stock ages out and if incentives are favorable. Makes more sense for new construction. Even then only when carrying costs (mortgage/home improvement/home improvement loans.) are very low or non existent.

 

[mvweebles]

Do you know if it's financially feasible there with a reasonable payback or is it just a matter of people doing it anyway?

We have a condo with roof deck in the Yucatan region of Mexico. We built a pair of pergolas on the roof deck and installed 16-panels about 4-years ago. Because Mexicos electric rates are progressive with the highest tier being roughly 2.5x our US rates, and we rent VRBO to northerners seeking sunshine and air conditioning, payback has been under 4-years.

Initial solar system was around $8k not including cost of pergolas. In the US, if guess it would be well over $20k. Why is it so much more in the US? In the US, tax credits and incentives have been around for a while. I suspect that the various installation companies price systems similar to how Persian rugs are priced - list price is a stupid number with a hefty discount making it look like a good deal even when it's not great.

I'll say that there are many, many reasons to go solar beyond just money. The sense of independence is great, and we consider it a hedge against rising utility rates.

I installed 800w of solar on the hard top of our Willard 36 making it easily net zero (except for A/C), at least for our lifestyle which is fairly simple. We went old-school with custom icebox and separate freezer with thick insulation and detached compressor for efficiency.

Given our boat gets a legitimate 5nm/gal of diesel even with an ancient Perkins 75hp, there really is no upper limit on fuel costs that would affect us appreciably. Any sizeable increase would affect others much more thereby reducing demand - and prices - long before it would affect us.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

A few years ago we priced out a solar system for our AZ house. Doing an NPV analysis easily showed no advantage to us at prevailing rates at the time. The most cost effective route was to pay 100% up front. This was for a ground mounted system.

The power providers in AZ wheel power to California at "high" rates, which power is provided by AZ thermal generators and you guessed it, AZ rooftop solar. This solar power is purchased from AZ homes at equally "low" rates. Suffice to say, solar arrays are good news for many who are far removed from the home owner.

 

[O C Diver]

I looked at solar 3 years ago when replacing the shingles on my Fort Myers house. My perfect southern exposure roof had 8 solar panels to heat the swimming pool. Estimates were $40K to $60K before federal tax credits. My annual electric cost is under $1K. That includes 6 hours of irrigation twice a week during the dry season and 6 hours of pool pump daily. Now I'm not here during the summer, house AC is set at 85 degrees and I have 2 dehumidifiers maintaining humidity in the house and garage at 50%. I could see the electric doubling if I ever spend summers down here, but the payback was just ridiculous at this point. Maybe it will come down in price with more efficient panels or not requiring each house to be individually installation engineered, but not realistic right now. I put new solar heating pool panels back on my roof.

My neighbor spent $60K on his, gets a small check from the power company each year, and thinks he'll recover the entire investment on the sale of his house in 10 to 20 years. :lol:

Ted