Will the Titanic claim a few more?

[psneeld]

yes

 

[CaptTom]

In the other thread regarding the rower who went missing you had various criticisms of ocean rowers...

...But now you are saying you would jump in a privately built and maintained sub and pursue an adventure to see the Titanic which now has an all out search going on using resources.

Good catch. Yeah, I was afraid someone might notice that dichotomy.

Personally, I wouldn't risk my life to set some record for smallest, youngest, oldest, fastest or whatever to cross an ocean.

On the other hand, I would have probably taken a dive in that sub. First of all, it (nominally) has some scientific value. I thought the risks were well known. I would never have thought there could be so many other lives risked on a huge search like this. I assumed I'd either make it, or be snuffed out in a hull breach. Kind of a one-shot deal, all in one location.

So, I could argue there is a big difference between the rower and the sub.

Which brings us to the real point; my unease with putting searchers' lives at risk for what amounts to a stunt. If I was uncomfortable then, why not now?

If I knew then what we know now, I might consider this dive a "stunt" too, and feel the same way.

I'm very surprised there have been no reports of a pinger on the sub, or hydrophones on the support ship which could hear an implosion below. I haven't even heard the nature of the last communication. It's possible they already have a good idea what happened, but are holding out hope anyway.

We all want to know what happened, and we all hope for the best. But unfortunately I think it'll be a while before all the details are public. Then we can discuss whether it was foolish to begin with.

 

[Nick F]

So in regards to the hatch needing to be opened from the outside......does this mean if they were fortunate enough to have made it to the surface intact and alive, they would still suffocate if not found in 96 hours ?

Interesting point.

It is possible that the sub could have been fitted with a small plastic tube sticking up from the top of the hull (the familiar snorkel). This could be used to bring in fresh air while floating on the surface. Of course this would require a penetration through the hull and penetrations are considered to be possible points of failure and are usually minimised (eliminated) where possible.

I see from the images of the sub that there is indeed a small mast - probably a radio antenna and a strobe light for surface use.

 

[AlaskaProf]

The hatch on this sub is on the front, which would still be underwater when the sub is on the surface. To exit, the sub is lifted out of the water after surfacing.

To allow exit from the floating sub would require a top hatch

Is this a different vessel?

 

[AlaskaProf]

Never mind. This is Cyclops, only rated to 500 meters:

 

[psneeld]

I keep reading about people concerned with first responders lives/risks.

I just wonder how many here have been in the same situation or have been career anything where casualties are a part of the business but get massive training that minimizes risks to not much more than many people's daily commute.

I am guessing those with that background or experience may feel like I do.... stop worrying, the rescuers have 2 things going for them....their training and the ability to turn around when things start to go bad.

If the sub imploded... the US Navy may have heard it.... though I have no idea of their underwater listening capabilities these days.

 

[Nick F]

Is this a different vessel?

AlaskaProf - The vessel you show has a large acrylic viewing port - this indicates that it does not have much depth capability.

The vessel currently in question has a much smaller port - looks like about 8 inches diameter on the outside perhaps even less and is probably made of quartz.

The sub in your pictures appears to use the same semi-submersible recovery "platform" system. This would be flooded down and slid under the sub then deballasted to raise the sub out of the water. The ballast/floatation tanks appear to be adapted from propane tanks!

 

[soin2la]

Surface searching an area the size of Connecticut…

I’m not sure who to address this to, perhaps psneeld and I hope I'm making sense.

In terms of simple logic, if Titan had surfaced, would it not have risen fairly straight up and be in “close” proximity to the mother ship?

Or, asked differently; what is subsurface drift like, in comparison to surface drift? How far could that thing have drifted in the X hours it would take to surface?

 

[tiltrider1]

Surface searching an area the size of Connecticut…

I’m not sure who to address this to, perhaps psneeld and I hope I'm making sense.

In terms of simple logic, if Titan had surfaced, would it not have risen fairly straight up and be in “close” proximity to the mother ship?

Or, asked differently; what is subsurface drift like, in comparison to surface drift? How far could that thing have drifted in the X hours it would take to surface?

Underwater currents are much different than surface currents. We have a good idea of the rate and direction of drift on the surface but under the surface we know very little. What we know is that the sub would surface farther away than we expect.

 

[AlaskaProf]

If the sub imploded... the US Navy may have heard it.... though I have no idea of their underwater listening capabilities these days.

Good point. I hadn't thought of SOSUS. But would they tell us if they did know?

 

[Hippocampus]

View this activity the same as digging up graves. If it is archaeological study or to learn to prevent a recurrence and doesn’t offend religious precepts or cultural norms of direct descendants it may have value and be done ethically. Otherwise it’s voyeurism and not justifiable.

However that’s an entirely different subject than trying to save these souls or at least return their remains. Closure either way seems an entirely worthwhile activity.

I know little about submersibles. Is it possible this is a power failure? How is comms done? What redundancies exist in these vessels?

 

[psneeld]

Good point. I hadn't thought of SOSUS. But would they tell us if they did know?

Probably not, but they might provide info through channels where the source of the intel wouldn't be revealed.

 

[soin2la]

Two parts…

View this activity the same as digging up graves. If it is archaeological study or to learn to prevent a recurrence and doesn’t offend religious precepts or cultural norms of direct descendants it may have value and be done ethically. Otherwise it’s voyeurism and not justifiable.

I agree on that and it is why my earlier comments put the pre missing event in the ghoulish, foolish, laughable column.

However that’s an entirely different subject than trying to save these souls or at least return their remains. Closure either way seems an entirely worthwhile activity.

On that I agree as well. This phase I find fascinating and gripping. As one expert said; (I paraphrase) the Titanic has been researched to exhaustion, there is nothing scientifically new to be discovered. This is purely tourism.

 

[Adopo]

To me it's sort of like climbing Everest. How many have lost their lives doing this? Personal challenge, or some type of ego trip? Where are all of those discarded canisters? I guess it does support the local economy. That said it wouldn't totally surprise me if someone on here has climbed Everest or other mountains. Why did you climb the mountain? Because it was there.

Studying the ship to me is bogus. It is a decaying wreck, it will continue to decay. What can you learn that is practical? Would it be cool to sit in a five person line and put my eyes up to a pie plate to see it? Probably. To cheat death? We do that every time we fly our small plane to a small extent. If these poor souls had time to think about their impending doom, I'm sure they thought why did I do this? They risked it all to look out of a small pie plate at a wreck on the bottom of the ocean in which many people died. If you lived I guess it would make great small talk at a cocktail party.

 

[alormaria]

I want that blue diamond.

 

[twistedtree]

Does a sub like this have an umbilical cord, or is it free floating? I free floating, what would they use for coms? Underwater radio comes is hard, right? And if am umbilical cord, is the mothership now holding the severed end?

 

[AlaskaProf]

Probably not, but they might provide info through channels where the source of the intel wouldn't be revealed.

The paradox at the heart of countless spy thrillers. How do I act on my knowledge without revealing that I have the knowledge...?

 

[AlaskaProf]

I have to say, I had no idea there was a "submersible industry," nor that there were "industry standards," but the letter in today's Times seems revealing. Fragment below:


Leaders in the submersible craft industry were so worried about what they called the “experimental” approach of OceanGate, the company whose craft has gone missing, that they wrote a letter in 2018 warning of possible “catastrophic” problems with the submersible’s development and its planned mission to tour the Titanic wreckage.
The letter, obtained by The New York Times, was sent to OceanGate’s chief executive, Stockton Rush, by the Manned Underwater Vehicles committee of the Marine Technology Society, a 60-year-old trade group...

 

[psneeld]

The paradox at the heart of countless spy thrillers. How do I act on my knowledge without revealing that I have the knowledge...?

Also why prosecutors worry about trials involving that very concept and revealing the origin of the info.

 

[Benthic2]

I understand the allure of the Titanic. The story has fascinated me every since I was a kid, and especially after I lived on a cruise ship for a few years. Wanting to visit places that are historically or scientifically significant is not goulish or macabre. How many people visit the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington, or the battle fields at Gettysburg. Just last month my son took a tour to a concentration camp in Germany on a school trip. Visiting the beaches of Normandy is on my bucket list. I don't see the desire to visit the Titanic as any more goulish than these other tourist activities that are considered normal.

 

[Mako]

Leaders in the submersible craft industry were so worried about what they called the “experimental” approach of OceanGate, the company whose craft has gone missing, that they wrote a letter in 2018 warning of possible “catastrophic” problems with the submersible’s development and its planned mission to tour the Titanic wreckage.
The letter, obtained by The New York Times, was sent to OceanGate’s chief executive, Stockton Rush, by the Manned Underwater Vehicles committee of the Marine Technology Society, a 60-year-old trade group...

Would be interesting to hear about actual details which were experimental, if not risky in nature.

 

[psneeld]

I understand the allure of the Titanic. The story has fascinated me every since I was a kid, and especially after I lived on a cruise ship for a few years. Wanting to visit places that are historically or scientifically significant is not goulish or macabre. How many people visit the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington, or the battle fields at Gettysburg. Just last month my son took a tour to a concentration camp in Germany on a school trip. Visiting the beaches of Normandy is on my bucket list. I don't see the desire to visit the Titanic as any more goulish than these other tourist activities that are considered normal.

Probably the exception being that Nautical Etiquette is that ships are a final resting place and that because they are not prepared sites like cemeteries, battlefield parks, historically prepared sites, etc...etc...they should be treated a little differently as it is like peering into the caskets or tombs in the prepared parks, etc......

 

[AlaskaProf]

Would be interesting to hear about actual details which were experimental, if not risky in nature.

The full letter in the Times has some of that, but the complaint seems to be that the builder didn't do testing to know what the risks were. His response seems to be:

To do it the right way stifles innovation.

 

[Nick F]

The full letter in the Times has some of that, but the complaint seems to be that the builder didn't do testing to know what the risks were. His response seems to be:

To do it the right way stifles innovation.

In effect, the paying passengers were part of the testing program. (The letter refers to testing a prototype, with 3rd party involvement)

 

[Nick F]

Does a sub like this have an umbilical cord, or is it free floating? I free floating, what would they use for coms? Underwater radio comes is hard, right? And if am umbilical cord, is the mothership now holding the severed end?

A sub like this is un-tethered (no umbilical cord).

Communications can be achieved over a few thousand meters via acoustic transmission. Sound at 8khz frequency travels quite well and I have spoken on underwater phones - they sound a bit like the tin can and string, but they are quite intelligible. (The 8khz "carrier" frequency is right in the middle of our human hearing range, so that particular frequency is filtered out of what you hear)

I read that the Titan communicated to the surface in text messages - presumably these were transmitted on an acoustic "carrier" wave as described above.

 

[twistedtree]

A sub like this is un-tethered (no umbilical cord).

Communications can be achieved over a few thousand meters via acoustic transmission. Sound at 8khz frequency travels quite well and I have spoken on underwater phones - they sound a bit like the tin can and string, but they are quite intelligible. (The 8khz "carrier" frequency is right in the middle of our human hearing range, so that particular frequency is filtered out of what you hear)

I read that the Titan communicated to the surface in text messages - presumably these were transmitted on an acoustic "carrier" wave as described above.

Interesting, thank.

 

[Jeff F]

I read that the Titan communicated to the surface in text messages - presumably these were transmitted on an acoustic "carrier" wave as described above.

CBC is reporting that the last text received was less than two hours after the descent began.

 

[Timicrinn]

Implosion is immediate….Caught and entangled so slow

 

[AlaskaProf]

Implosion is immediate….Caught and entangled so slow

Given the current odds, I think implosion would be a blessing.

 

[O C Diver]

Does a sub like this have an umbilical cord, or is it free floating? I free floating, what would they use for coms? Underwater radio comes is hard, right? And if am umbilical cord, is the mothership now holding the severed end?

Deep submersibles and many ROVs don't have umbilicals as a function of drag. In the case of this submersible, the umbilical would be over 3 maybe 4 miles long ( no way to keep it a straight line between 2 points). The water current drag factor could be huge. In addition, it would need to be strong (think bigger in diameter) and abrasion resistant. Add to this the requirement for the submersible to be able to pull the cable. This would include additional battery capacity and larger propulsion systems.

I have some limited experience with tethered ROVs. Usually when going against a current in less than 100' of water, the drag on the umbilical becomes the limiting factor, not the ability of the ROV to make headway against the current.

Ted