Will the Titanic claim a few more?

[soin2la]

Given the current odds, I think implosion would be a blessing.

But then there is this optimism.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9781844/titanic-submersible-experience-bc/

 

[Benthic2]

The only equipment capable of lifting the vehicle will arrive at the port in Canada Tuesday night and still need to be shipped to the sight.....IF they can find it. Every hour that passes gets closer to the no good solutions point.

 

[NaClyDog]

This is interesting...


https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

 

[Benthic2]

from the previous link:

"the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters."

that seems like it would be a pretty significant detail.....

 

[Comodave]

A report that I saw said it was not tethered. Also they were supposed to have 96 hours of air plus some scuba tanks. Also reported was that they had only a jug of water for each person, jug quantity was not stated.

 

[Nick F]

Quote -

"the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters."



The plot thickens . . .

 

[AlaskaProf]

This is interesting...


https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

"The constant pressure cycling weakens existing flaws resulting in large tears of the carbon."


Not a new concept:

 

[Mako]

This is interesting:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...yage-safety-concerns.html?ico=related-replace

The guy trusted his instincts.

 

[kthoennes]

Given the current odds, I think implosion would be a blessing.

Having spent more tedious, uncomfortable hours than I care to remember in a commercial diving decompression chamber, sadly, I agree.

 

[BruceK]

News report I just read:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06...d-in-search-for-missing-submersible/102505782

 

[SteveK]

Good news, they have a target for the search.

 

[AlaskaProf]

About That 96 Hours?


I woke in the night wondering exactly what these people are breathing. Surely they mean 96 hours of compressed air? How are they handling exhaled CO2? If they are releasing some sort of breathable gas into the vessel, which we are told is pressurized to one atmo, what provision is there for venting?


Nothing says the seemingly simple vessel is built to serve for four days, except "they have 96 hours of oxygen."

 

[CaptTom]

I have seen references to a CO2 scrubber on board. I do question the exact meaning of the 96-hour figure which has been touted. But at this point the only option is to assume the best and keep searching for at least that long.

 

[Benthic2]

I would assume there is a scrubber system like a close circuit rebreather for a diver

 

[Mako]

This is the exactly the plot of several Clive Cussler novels. But it’s a hell of a lot scary in real life

 

[Benthic2]

I think the 96 hours is up at 2:30 am Thursday morning.....so 17 hours from now. I wonder if they will stop looking at that point ?

 

[psneeld]

I think the 96 hours is up at 2:30 am Thursday morning.....so 17 hours from now. I wonder if they will stop looking at that point ?

I doubt they will just stop looking....

Typical searches are called off, but many times because of "other" factors, some searching goes on by SAR organizations to "bring closure" known to most as body recovery, other times it may be to seek evidence in accident investigation (oh boy...this one will be huge considering all the international support and governments demand explanations), sometime the families just keep at least private search assets going.

Awhile back I posted in a SAR thread, one time I had the wife of a missing husband and kids whose airplane crashed off Chincoteague, VA bring a psychic in to review the case folder and ask questions. Eventually an assistance tower being paid by her found the wreckage, and brought home the bodies. So searching goes on for long afterward on some situations.

 

[folivier]

This is the exactly the plot of several Clive Cussler novels. But it’s a hell of a lot scary in real life

Or Sam Reilly.

 

[Mako]

I think the 96 hours is up at 2:30 am Thursday morning.....so 17 hours from now. I wonder if they will stop looking at that point ?

So for whatever reason they ran into trouble but could not dump the thousands of pounds of old-scaffolding (ballast). Assuming they locate the sub on the bottom this hour, how do you lower a grapnel 2 miles down and attach it, or utilize a salvage sub to attach a lifting bag and then inflate it - what's the mechanism for recovery at the depth... all before Thursday morning?

 

[Benthic2]

The Navy has specialized equipment that could raise the sub. It should be onsite soon and if they have a location they can deploy the specialized lifting equipment, but it will take 10-12 hours to decend and another 10-12 hours to get back to the surface. I think even if they found them right now it is too late to save them.

 

[O C Diver]

I think the 96 hours is up at 2:30 am Thursday morning.....so 17 hours from now. I wonder if they will stop looking at that point ?

Typically the units have a very conservative scrubber rating. I've owned several diving rebreathers and own stock in one of the scrubber manufacturers that supplies CO2 absorbent for medical, Navy rebreathers, backup systems in Navy submarines, space travel, mine safety, and diving. Toured their factory about 10 years ago. The calculated safety factor (in time) is usually about 2 or 3 to one depending on application. The CO2 absorbent doesn't just stop, it slowly starts to deteriorate in its effectiveness.

Probably the bigger issue is the oxygen capacity onboard. As the CO2 is scrubbed out of the air, oxygen within the submersible decreases with human respiration. So the system adds oxygen to maintain the normal level in air (21%). I would have to assume that the amount of oxygen onboard would be in excess of the theoretical minimal stated.

Ted

 

[Nick F]

So for whatever reason they ran into trouble but could not dump the thousands of pounds of old-scaffolding (ballast). Assuming they locate the sub on the bottom this hour, how do you lower a grapnel 2 miles down and attach it, or utilize a salvage sub to attach a lifting bag and then inflate it - what's the mechanism for recovery at the depth... all before Thursday morning?

The mechanism for recovery is via ROV. ROVs have manipulator arms and have become quite dexterous in the last two decades and are capable of attaching shackles. There appears to be a lifting sling stowed on top of the sub - visible in photos.

This would of course require an ROV with that depth capability and a surface vessel with a suitable winch system (drum capacity and a single line 4000m long!).

There is no such thing as a "salvage sub", and military submarines cannot reach these deep depths (without imploding). The navy rescue method is a mini sub that clamps on (like a limpet) over a special hatch on the distressed sub and transfers crew a few at a time - very much like docking onto the skylab.

 

[dannc]

So for whatever reason they ran into trouble but could not dump the thousands of pounds of old-scaffolding (ballast). Assuming they locate the sub on the bottom this hour, how do you lower a grapnel 2 miles down and attach it, or utilize a salvage sub to attach a lifting bag and then inflate it - what's the mechanism for recovery at the depth... all before Thursday morning?

I read that for the ballast to be dumped, the crew had to move to one side of the vessel to cause a heel angle for the pipes to fall off.

My first thought was this design removed the need for a mechanical and/or electrical system to dump the ballast which likely would have required hull penetration(s) and complication, which is not good.

Flip side, no pun intended, what if the crew is not able to cause the vessel to heel far enough to dump the ballast, such as on the bottom of the ocean, physically unable for a variety of reasons, etc....

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

...
If the sub imploded... the US Navy may have heard it.... though I have no idea of their underwater listening capabilities these days.

Good point. I hadn't thought of SOSUS. But would they tell us if they did know?

I am kinda surprised we have not heard anything about SOSUS since it has been turned into research tool and replaced by other systems. The new system(s) are not talked about much, surprise, surprise, but one would hope/think that is the sub had imploded it would have been heard. Certainly, the US Navy might not want to say anything about the new system(s), and thus not say if they heard an implosion, but one would think data from SOSUS would be ok.

Flip side is, if an implosion was heard, why give away national security capabilities, since there would be no one to rescue.

Later,
Dan

 

[Biscuit]

I know I do more reading than posting, 2nd post. But this talk of recovery reminds me of the Glomar Explorer.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I know I do more reading than posting, 2nd post. But this talk of recovery reminds me of the Glomar Explorer.

and how many years did that take?

 

[soin2la]

I understand the allure of the Titanic. Wanting to visit places that are historically or scientifically significant is not goulish or macabre. I don't see the desire to visit the Titanic as any more goulish than these other tourist activities that are considered normal.

As it should be.

https://glsps.clubexpress.com/DiveS... a one Million,organization such as the GLSPS.

“There is a one Million Dollar fine for diving it! The only way it can be dived is applying for a pain staking Archaeological permit by an official organization such as the GLSPS.”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/titanic-edmund-fitzgerald-1.6882861

 

[Benthic2]

soin2la: If you are going to quote me, please include the entire quote or at least indicate that you have edited my original post, which was as follows:

I understand the allure of the Titanic. The story has fascinated me every since I was a kid, and especially after I lived on a cruise ship for a few years. Wanting to visit places that are historically or scientifically significant is not goulish or macabre. How many people visit the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington, or the battle fields at Gettysburg. Just last month my son took a tour to a concentration camp in Germany on a school trip. Visiting the beaches of Normandy is on my bucket list. I don't see the desire to visit the Titanic as any more goulish than these other tourist activities that are considered normal.

While the Titanic is obviously a grave site, the fact that so few people posess the ability to get down there, and when they do, they can't enter the wreck or disturb the bodies, I don't think it is any kind of sacriledge for people to visit the site. Some wreck sites in shallower water that are accessible by divers should be regulated because unfortunately some people probably would try to collect a skull for a souvenier or something like that. I know in my area ( New England ) well trained divers can dive on a German Sub off of Rhode Island and also the Andrea Doria. I would understand if those activities were restricted because lots of people have access and not all of them will show the proper respect. Visiting the Titanic is like driving a tour bus by a battle field. No one can get out or touch anything.....they can just see it without disturbing anything.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Good news, they have a target for the search.

...


Capt. Jamie Frederick of the United States Coast Guard said remotely operated vehicles are seeking the source of the sounds, and a team of experts is examining the noises to determine if they might be from the missing vessel. But so far, he said, that analysis has been “inconclusive.”

It is in human nature to find hope in small possibilities.

 

[kthoennes]

Entirely by random coincidence we were on the Queen Mary on a transatlantic crossing years ago on a beautiful, chilly, fresh, windy Sunday morning. The captain traditionally holds a church service in the theater on Sunday mornings on the QM2. It's kind of a vanilla service that does feel vaguely touristy, and of course the theater decor sure doesn't feel like Westminster Abbey. Even so, they sing the British and US Naval Hymn (Eternal Father...for those in peril on the sea...) and It is Well with My Soul (if you know the story of that hymn you'll know why they include that one), and Lord of Sea and Sky. Prayers for the royal family -- Queen at the time. We crossed the location of the sinking during that service, so they added Nearer My God to Thee and we sang it as we passed over the wreck. Yes it was touristy, and yes, they probably added it for for theatrical effect, but contrived or not, I'll never forget that morning.