Wireless Docking Remote Controls - What's The Magic Number?

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vertigopilot

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Selene 47
I've noticed the opinion frequently expressed on the forum that wireless docking remote controls (Yacht Controller, Dockmate, etc.) are too expensive or not sufficiently useful to justify the cost. So, I'm wondering:


1. For those of you who have seriously considered adding one to your boat but didn't make the purchase, what was it that ultimately led to your decision?


2. If it was price/value, was there a magic number (or additional features) that would have changed that decision for you?


3. Have you ever tried out or personally observed the use of a wireless docking remote on a friend's boat?


4. What other gear won out for your boat upgrade spending?



These questions aren't aimed at the purists who refuse to have anything but mechanical controls for their engines, but only for those who do actually appreciate the merits of modern electronic propulsion controls.


Thanks in advance for your feedback!
 
I have considered them but not moved forward for several reasons.
1) installed cost is $15-25k. Not sure if there is a magic number due to other reasons but $10k+/- could make me seriously reconsider
2) currently have mechanical controls on Ford Lehmans and I have seen a few instances where the electronic controls fail. It would be a failure I really don't want to risk.
3) before investing this much $$ I would probably spend it to add a bow thruster.
4) utility would be mostly for single handed around the docks but without the aforementioned bow thruster not clear it would really be helpful.
 
I looked at them around 2012 when building a boat. The wing stations we optional on the boat, and I figured a remote would be better and less expensive. I looked at Yacht Controller and it was going to cost $10k+, and I talked to some people who found the connectivity less than perfect. Instead I build two wing stations and one stern/cockpit station for $9k, each with ore functionality than the Yacht Controller.


Now I am again looking at them, and talked to both Dockmate and Yacht Controller at FLIBS. My grear and throttle controls are canbus, and my thruster controls are canbus, so that's how everything interfaces. It couldn't be simple to hook everything together. Dockmate quoted by $11,500 installed. Yacht Controller said $20-$25k. Again talking to people who have them, Dockmate gets overwhelmingly positive reviews where Yacht Controller is good, but not perfect.


I think $11k is pretty steep for something that is just a few hundred dollar remote and a base station with a couple of CAN ports, but it's way better than Yacht Controllers price. which for me is a complete non-starter. I plan to see what else might be available at METS next week, but right now it's likely I will pull the trigger on a Dockmate.


In terms of use, for me it's about freeing me from the wing station so I can help with line handling rather than leaving it all to my wife. Plus a backup in case she gets hurt, as she did last summer.
 
I plan to see what else might be available at METS next week, but right now it's likely I will pull the trigger on a Dockmate.


Did you discover anything interesting in this category at METS?
 
twistedtree;1202913....... said:
A good friend with whom I crew a lot has Yacht Mate (I think). He bought the boat, a 52 foot power cat, used but was only a few years old at the time. He uses it exactly as TT suggests here.

He has replaced the battery in the device twice (battery swelled) - well over $2k as I recall which pissed him off but he didn't hesitate to write the check as it makes docking and anchoring much more comfortable for him and his wife.

I would think his magic number would be in the $10k-$15k range. That said, boats have a way of softening sticker shock - it really is useful for him. Not sure if he would spend thet type of money had the boat not already been so equipped, but now that he's used it, the utility is useful.

Peter
 
That said, boats have a way of softening sticker shock - it really is useful for him. Not sure if he would spend thet type of money had the boat not already been so equipped, but now that he's used it, the utility is useful.


Excellent feedback, thanks! I run across that often. Only those who actually use a wireless docking control seem to truly appreciate its value. To all others it seems an unnecessary extravagance, and perhaps an insult to the captain's prowess at the helm.


It's a shame that so many miss out on the transformative benefits of this technology out of a sense of pride. Those benefits are not measured so much in reduced workload for the captain, but rather in the relaxation and happiness of the admiral.
 
...... To all others it seems an unnecessary extravagance, and perhaps an insult to the captain's prowess at the helm....

My friend is one of the best helmsmen I've ever seen. His close quarter skills are excellent, better than mine and I'm no slouch. Wireless remote is a tool that makes using his boat more enjoyable. Does he need it? No. He just likes it and it does allow him more confidence to approach certain situations. But he has nothing to prove as far as a yachtsman. He loves being in the water and while the wireless remote doesn't add so much as a minute of additional time on the water, he just likes having the ability to be mobile if needed.

Peter
 
The common phrase within that segment of the industry when it comes to connectivity is "Plug and Pray."
 
I'll just point something out.

For less than $1k I added a remote fob for my thrusters (bow and stern). It controls thrusters only. No engine control.

That does allow me to step out onto my side deck and use the thrusters to steer into the slip once the boat is basically lined up and creeping in. But need to duck or reach inside to bump the throttle.

And then once in place in the slip, to move around to tie lines and use the thrusters remotely to keep the boat in place while I do so.

With no throttle control that isn't nearly the function of a fully remote dock mate or similar.

It is an inexpensive middle ground that for the modest cost is something I find well worth it.

As far as connectivity goes, I never lost it in the half season of use so far, including while moving around on the dock. It does time itself off after about 15 minutes of no use so its useful to just bump a thruster now and again until you know you are done. If it does time off its only a few seconds to hit the buttons to turn it back on.
 
Did you discover anything interesting in this category at METS?
Thanks for asking, because I obviously forgot to follow up on this.

METS was revealing. I spent more time with Dockmate and believe they have the better product for me. My gear and thruster controls are both CAN based, and the Dockmate simply plugs into each Can bus and speaks its language. So it’s a very simple, uninvasive install.


But I’m not moving forward, at least not now. It’s all about pricing and business practices. Pricing killed any discussions with Yachtcontroller before they got past a few questions. When I stopped the guy to ask if “15” meant $1,500 or $15,000, I stopped listening when he said it was $15,000. And that was just the starting price for the control box. Then you add on for the remote, and for each interface to gears, throttle, thrusters, etc. It would be $20k to $25k, which to me is just nutty, especially when you consider it’s 2x what a Dockmate costs.

But Dockmate basically screwed themselves out of a deal. I discovered that in Europe, a full Dockmate for my boat would cost less than 6k eu. That I would have bought in the spot, but no, that would be too simple. With any ship to or installation in North America, you have to go through the US subsidiary, and the US pricing is 2x the EU pricing. WTF. So I pressed the US guys, and told them I’d be happy to pay the EU price and move ahead, but that I wasn’t going to pay 2x for no reason. I got the expected song and dance back, so told him I’d just buy it when I have the boat in Europe. If I could get someone in Europe to sell to me, I’d do it, but the thing still needs to be configured and adjusted post installation, and that runs right back into the territory issue. Oh well. I like the Dockmate, but just in principle I won’t pay 2x because of where I live. I now have an even greater sympathy for my AU and NZ friends who have to deal with this all the time.

Since then I have looked into piecing together a KarTech remote plus a PLC to interface to the boat parts. It’s a science project, but would be fun for me and looks pretty straight forward to do.
 
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I'll just point something out.

For less than $1k I added a remote fob for my thrusters (bow and stern). It controls thrusters only. No engine control.

That does allow me to step out onto my side deck and use the thrusters to steer into the slip once the boat is basically lined up and creeping in. But need to duck or reach inside to bump the throttle.

And then once in place in the slip, to move around to tie lines and use the thrusters remotely to keep the boat in place while I do so.

With no throttle control that isn't nearly the function of a fully remote dock mate or similar.

It is an inexpensive middle ground that for the modest cost is something I find well worth it.

As far as connectivity goes, I never lost it in the half season of use so far, including while moving around on the dock. It does time itself off after about 15 minutes of no use so its useful to just bump a thruster now and again until you know you are done. If it does time off its only a few seconds to hit the buttons to turn it back on.

There are wireless crane controls too. Similar to the wireless winch controls, etc… many can be adapted to our use.
The crane controls are a little bigger, and bright yellow, but very dependable.
 
I'll just point something out.

For less than $1k I added a remote fob for my thrusters (bow and stern). It controls thrusters only. No engine control.

That does allow me to step out onto my side deck and use the thrusters to steer into the slip once the boat is basically lined up and creeping in. But need to duck or reach inside to bump the throttle.

And then once in place in the slip, to move around to tie lines and use the thrusters remotely to keep the boat in place while I do so.

With no throttle control that isn't nearly the function of a fully remote dock mate or similar.

It is an inexpensive middle ground that for the modest cost is something I find well worth it.

As far as connectivity goes, I never lost it in the half season of use so far, including while moving around on the dock. It does time itself off after about 15 minutes of no use so its useful to just bump a thruster now and again until you know you are done. If it does time off its only a few seconds to hit the buttons to turn it back on.

In places like Florida, common to back-into a slip and tie-off to piles. Having a wireless thruster control would be useful for single-handing so you can move the bow from one side/pile to the other (or perhaps for crew to use when tying up as needed).

What other use cases would benefit from a wireless thruster remote?

Peter
 
We installed our Sleipner (Sidepower) 180/100kgf bow thruster 8 years ago and opted for the wireless remote as part of the installation. Our remote has wireless control of the thruster and the Muir Cougar windlass. I use the remote control most when raising anchor as I can rotate the bow towards the direction of the pull while the admiral bumps us forward, and raise the chain at the same time. Makes using the washdown at the same time convenient.

James
 
In places like Florida, common to back-into a slip and tie-off to piles. Having a wireless thruster control would be useful for single-handing so you can move the bow from one side/pile to the other (or perhaps for crew to use when tying up as needed).

What other use cases would benefit from a wireless thruster remote?

Peter

I used it to steer into a slip once generally lined up

And keep it where I want it while I tie lines.

Once you have a spring line on to prevent backing too far in and are in neutral, you are free to leave the helm. Or step onto the dock and leave the boat.

From there, let the mind wander as to how big or little the utility is to YOU
 
My friend is one of the best helmsmen I've ever seen. His close quarter skills are excellent... Wireless remote is a tool that makes using his boat more enjoyable... and it does allow him more confidence to approach certain situations.


Your friend's experience reinforces my point quite well: even the most accomplished helmsmen find benefits in wireless docking controls, not because they "need" them to dock competently, but because these tools enhance that competence and make the task more enjoyable.
 
I'll just point something out.

For less than $1k I added a remote fob for my thrusters (bow and stern). It controls thrusters only. No engine control.

That does allow me to step out onto my side deck and use the thrusters to steer into the slip once the boat is basically lined up and creeping in. But need to duck or reach inside to bump the throttle.

And then once in place in the slip, to move around to tie lines and use the thrusters remotely to keep the boat in place while I do so.

With no throttle control that isn't nearly the function of a fully remote dock mate or similar.

It is an inexpensive middle ground that for the modest cost is something I find well worth it.

As far as connectivity goes, I never lost it in the half season of use so far, including while moving around on the dock. It does time itself off after about 15 minutes of no use so its useful to just bump a thruster now and again until you know you are done. If it does time off its only a few seconds to hit the buttons to turn it back on.


There's no doubt that one can engineer their own wireless docking controller from readily-available components, varying in quality, reliability and price from cheap consumer-grade gadgets to serious industrial controllers. Adding wireless thruster control to previously fixed-control boat is a big improvement, but the real magic happens when adding gear-shifting control, giving the helmsman full wireless positional command of the vessel even when standing on the dock. Adding CANbus interfaces to newer equipment brings a few more layers of complexity, but is still reasonably accessible for those with enough motivation.



My company started out exactly that way, with much experimentation testing a wide range of off-the-shelf products. We quickly learned that membrane-switch transmitters (and especially those used in mini key fobs) would not be able to provide the safety factors we wanted for our products. The reliability issue perhaps isn't so acute when controlling only thrusters, but becomes critical when adding gear control.


The largest differences between consumer-grade and industrial controls are that the latter are configured with dry-contract relays so that different equipment functions (for example: thrusters, propulsion controls, windlass) are each handled using their own source signal voltage, and with safety circuitry to shut off the base station from any input to the connected equipment when the OFF/Emergency button is pressed. The top-tier industrial controls (priced accordingly) also include multiple redundant relay bridges to guarantee absolute certainty of equipment disconnect, so that there is no way for one or even two stuck relays in series to allow the connected equipment to remain engaged when transmitter signal is lost or the OFF button pressed. None of those safety precautions exist in cheap consumer-grade products, where the possibility of relay that cost pennies getting stuck -- though thankfully rare -- is considerably higher, and without the additional safety equipment could result in a very expensive mishap.


For these reasons we optimized our wireless docking controls for maximum reliability, which means in part that we've stayed away from fancy-looking little transmitters with delicate joysticks and thin membrane switches, instead staying with more substantial components both in the base station and the handheld transmitter.


Still, none of my comment here is intended to discourage the adventurous from experimenting and engineering their own wireless docking controls, but simply to encourage careful consideration of potential failure modes, and to build in some additional protection for those scenarios. A properly-implemented custom solution can certainly be assembled for much less than the premium Yacht Controller prices I've seen quoted recently, but the true cost of such a system won't be at the bargain $1000 price-point either.


Custom-engineered solutions can be a lot of fun, but they're not practical for the vast majority of the boaters who would benefit most from the technology. Fortunately there are other product alternatives without the US price tags of Yacht Controller or Dockmate.
 
I had a wired remote on my previous boat. I now have cockpit controls and a thruster remote.

I was set on a Dockmate system, but decided I would try the cockpit controls that were already installed on my new boat.

The cockpit controls are a better fit for me than a remote. One less gadget to maintain and my feel for the controls is better around the dock, as the cockpit controls are a mirror of the main helm. I also seem better oriented to the controls if the controls are fixed to the boat rather than in my hand.

The only thing I miss about the remote is the ability to walk to the bow when weighing the anchor.
 
But Dockmate basically screwed themselves out of a deal. I discovered that in Europe, a full Dockmate for my boat would cost less than 6k eu. That I would have bought in the spot, but no, that would be too simple. With any ship to or installation in North America, you have to go through the US subsidiary, and the US pricing is 2x the EU pricing. WTF. So I pressed the US guys, and told them I’d be happy to pay the EU price and move ahead, but that I wasn’t going to pay 2x for no reason. I got the expected song and dance back, so told him I’d just buy it when I have the boat in Europe. If I could get someone in Europe to sell to me, I’d do it, but the thing still needs to be configured and adjusted post installation, and that runs right back into the territory issue. Oh well. I like the Dockmate, but just in principle I won’t pay 2x because of where I live. I now have an even greater sympathy for my AU and NZ friends who have to deal with this all the time.

Since then I have looked into piecing together a KarTech remote plus a PLC to interface to the boat parts. It’s a science project, but would be fun for me and looks pretty straight forward to do.


I have to admit that I find your reasoning confusing here. You'd gladly pay the manufacturer's quoted EU price, but you want the US distributor who has invested in exclusive representation and service of the product here to provide it to you without any reasonable compensation for their import expenses and a working profit margin? And so, for a $6k price difference, the admiral will have to await the agreed benefits of that upgrade until you have the boat present in Europe? If you're concerned about a lack of local support if you were to bypass the US distributor by purchasing from an EU dealer now, how would you plan to overcome that concern when your boat returns later? (I assuming that it will not remain on that side of the Atlantic.)


Science projects are great fun, and KarTech makes some very good products, but there are more details to engineering a truly safe and reliable wireless docking control system than can be found in any off-the-shelf product. Once you factor those functions into the engineering Dockmate doesn't seem so overpriced, not even at the US prices. If my company's product didn't exist, I'd be a customer for theirs. The benefits are too important to be without over a few thousand dollars.
 
I have to admit that I find your reasoning confusing here. You'd gladly pay the manufacturer's quoted EU price, but you want the US distributor who has invested in exclusive representation and service of the product here to provide it to you without any reasonable compensation for their import expenses and a working profit margin? And so, for a $6k price difference, the admiral will have to await the agreed benefits of that upgrade until you have the boat present in Europe? If you're concerned about a lack of local support if you were to bypass the US distributor by purchasing from an EU dealer now, how would you plan to overcome that concern when your boat returns later? (I assuming that it will not remain on that side of the Atlantic.)


Science projects are great fun, and KarTech makes some very good products, but there are more details to engineering a truly safe and reliable wireless docking control system than can be found in any off-the-shelf product. Once you factor those functions into the engineering Dockmate doesn't seem so overpriced, not even at the US prices. If my company's product didn't exist, I'd be a customer for theirs. The benefits are too important to be without over a few thousand dollars.


A couple of things. First, boats move, and I expect that wherever I buy something, assuming from an established company, that I can get support from them wherever they are in the world. So if I bought and installed in europe, I would expect their closest reps to provide support wherever else in the world I have an issue, including in the US.



Second, a distributor isn't buying at retail, marking up to cover expenses and profit, then selling in a different geography. And if they are, they won't last long because of easy access to world wide pricing. A 2x disparity in pricing between geographies will never last, at least not if people are paying attention. A little price difference, sure, but 2x?


Normally a distributor would be buying at the deepest discount, and using the margin on resale to cover all the things you mention. And if it's a subsidiary of the parent, then I would expect them to be getting product at cost, with revenue ultimately going back to the parent. If the parent isn't providing support, stocking, sales, etc., then they should not be taking that slice of the sale price, instead yielding it to the subsidiary that is proving that service.
 
Second, a distributor isn't buying at retail, marking up to cover expenses and profit, then selling in a different geography. And if they are, they won't last long because of easy access to world wide pricing. A 2x disparity in pricing between geographies will never last, at least not if people are paying attention. A little price difference, sure, but 2x?


Normally a distributor would be buying at the deepest discount, and using the margin on resale to cover all the things you mention. And if it's a subsidiary of the parent, then I would expect them to be getting product at cost, with revenue ultimately going back to the parent. If the parent isn't providing support, stocking, sales, etc., then they should not be taking that slice of the sale price, instead yielding it to the subsidiary that is proving that service.


To my understanding your description is generally accurate for North American product distribution, but much less so for the European marine industry. I would guess that Dockmate US does not enjoy so deep a discount as you may speculate (though I have no special insight into their business model.)
 
For these reasons we optimized our wireless docking controls for maximum reliability, which means in part that we've stayed away from fancy-looking little transmitters with delicate joysticks and thin membrane switches, instead staying with more substantial components both in the base station and the handheld transmitter.


I might have missed it, but are you in the wireless controller business? What company are you with?
 
I might have missed it, but are you in the wireless controller business? What company are you with?


Yes, I am, but I don't want to run afoul of forum rules, so feel free to DM me and I'll be glad to share details.


BTW: We've crossed wakes a few times this past season. It's always a pleasure to see your fine vessel, either underway or at the dock. We'll be cruising between Sidney and Nanaimo for Christmas until New Year. Honk if you see us!
 
All thruster controls operate through the use of relays. :)


Most do some don't, what I was referring to was the switch contacts in the typical wired thruster joystick controls. Side shift controls (even the joystick) are connected to the thruster motor controller wirelessly
 
Most do some don't, what I was referring to was the switch contacts in the typical wired thruster joystick controls. Side shift controls (even the joystick) are connected to the thruster motor controller wirelessly


Sure, but the signal received at the motor end is passed through relays to operate the motor. There are always relays; the joystick controls at the helm are never providing operating current to the thruster motors.
 
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