Women boating?

[alormaria]

No argument with any of that but, maybe a bit of introspection is in order? You more than anyone here posts volumes of crass sexual innuendo, double entendres, references to your sex life, references to your bleach blonde hair and big boobs, scantily clad young women running around your yacht, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Seems to me you reinforce stereotypes of women yet chastise men for doing so.

This thread is worthless without pictures

 

[La Mer]

No argument with any of that but, maybe a bit of introspection is in order? You more than anyone here posts volumes of crass sexual innuendo, double entendres, references to your sex life, references to your bleach blonde hair and big boobs, scantily clad young women running around your yacht, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Seems to me you reinforce stereotypes of women yet chastise men for doing so.

My wife belongs to a few women’s boating groups and she says they never engage in that sort of juvenile banter. They actually talk about boats. They support each other, learn about operating, maintaining and fixing boats. Too bad they need to have their own place to do so without the condescension, objectifying and stereotyping by men or women.

By reading your post, my opinion is that your inelegance, discourtesy, your lack of respect and more globally your ridiculous puritanism of a previous age, are discriminatory, sexist and misogynist.


Now I better understand why too many of my female friends - American & French - stopped to contribute here and even slammed the door of the forum.


Please remember that your freedom of opinion stops where the rights to protect the freedom, dignity, honour, and reputation of others start.


I wholeheartedly support Belle aka Wifey B and I warmly welcome Andy G’s proposal.

 

[SteveK]

I think of TF as a group of like minded people coffee shop talking, except here there are restrictions and censorship limiting what we can talk about.
What I have not noticed is men replying to women any differently than they reply to other men on here. However the woman can get feelings hurt and fewer care to interact.

BTW I think Admiral is better than First Mate when referring to my partner.

 

[Porgy]

BandB,

Thank you for giving my comments thoughtful consideration. I think we agree on a lot more than it might sound. Believe me, I have no issue with your lifestyle or what you or anyone else wears. It is the constant commentary of it on a forum that many times leads others to infer and confirm a belief that I’m sure you would rather they not. I see a difference and don’t see it as blaming the victim.

Innuendo or double entendres inserted into a thread that has nothing to do with the subject don’t add anything other than juvenile inanity. Sad to say but if a woman says it, the old geezers get their hearts racing and think all women are like that. [Yes, sweeping generalization and stereotyping for hyperbolic effect.] Yes, it’s their problem and not yours but, are the words necessary and add to the discussion? If not, are there negative consequences that can arise from the words? If so, maybe discretion should be considered. If the thread subject is sex, hot tubs, bikinis and nudity have at it. I’m not telling you or anyone else how or what to post, just that seemingly innocuous words can also be inflammatory words in a different context. And god knows I’m no expert at social intercourse or Internet forums.

My wife intensely hates “admiral.” On boating and motorcycle forums I too often see, “How can I convince, trick or con the wife...” and cringe.

It is shame there have to be different groups for women but it is obvious on many forums, women get a pat on the head and should be happy they have enough closet space on the boat. There was a thread here not too long ago, someone looking for information and a response or two was akin to “happy wife happy life” etc. (which my wife also finds condescending) Turned out the OP was a woman and even after it was made known didn’t seem to register to some.

Some of my comments reflect sentiments of my wife who reads this forum and we talk about them including what I’ve posted here. However, for the reasons discussed here, she has no interest in joining or contributing.

 

[guy with a boat]

No argument with any of that but, maybe a bit of introspection is in order? You more than anyone here posts volumes of crass sexual innuendo, double entendres, references to your sex life, references to your bleach blonde hair and big boobs, scantily clad young women running around your yacht, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Seems to me you reinforce stereotypes of women yet chastise men for doing so.

Good points.

Wifey B: Yes, I do talk sexual a lot and do wear skimpy outfits…. …Wearing what I do or looking like I do in no way change my role on board nor do they impact the roles of others.

These things are your own business until you bring them into the TF conversation. That’s your call but it does give the green light to others that those topics are open for discussion. Few here (or anywhere) will respond to your comments about what you are wearing by asking about your boating education.

You know better than most of us if that conversation is an issue with other female members, but its is fair to acknowledge that you have a role in what is discussed and how it is discussed.

 

[BandB]

The reality is this thread, while interesting, isn't going to change anything. Therefore, this forum will not become more inviting to women boaters. My wife accepted the criticism of her but I see it as simply deflection. I've seen far more ugliness said here by men about their wives than I care to remember. I can't imagine even saying such and wonder if they talk about them like that in front of them. What would their wives think if they read it or are they, even sadder to think, use to it. Male chauvinism and treatment of women as second class citizens abounds. It's far deeper than light sexual banter. Sexual banter is quite common on our boat and I'm the target of more than my share. In our home, the same. My wife posts it here in humor, often to try to lighten the mood. In our business it's not. However, the top executives of our business are female. We employee female Captains and Engineers in boating. And never would you hear me disparage any of them and most definitely never talk about my wife in any negative or derogatory manner. I not only love her with all my heart and soul, I respect her more than any other human being. In my mind, she is beyond my equal but my superior in every way and I do keep her on a pedestal. What I observe by a few here is demeaning and keeping their woman in her place and for the many men here who are divorced multiple times then even worse. I do know that divorced women gather and equally put down men. Perhaps, that's the real point here that this isn't a gathering of just men or just women, but should be all and we should talk as we would with our spouse or partner or friend present and always consider them our equal and consider boaters of the opposite sex capable of anything we can do.

Unfortunately, this is another thread that won't change anything. The forum will continue as it is. Some will continue to put their spouses down, some put all females down. Some will continue to try to insert politics. All of those behaviors will continue to make others feel uncomfortable. Ultimately, those made uncomfortable will decide whether to stay or leave and for some of us that decision always is weighing in the balance but then there are always some wishing others would leave.

The forum does still come across overwhelmingly as an old man's social club including the predominant views on boating, on women, on society and on politics. For better or worse, that's the collective. My wife and I have attempted to talk others out of leaving and into tolerance and we have been unsuccessful in every attempt to do so. As a result, there are very few other long time couples on the forum and the few represented here, the husband is the only one who posts. Not going to change so while RTF's question is valid, it leads to no solution.

 

[SteveK]

Brett and Belle you are two peas in a pod. Your writing style is very similar, you are in tune with each other. Good for you that both of you participate here.

My wife, the admiral is a boating woman. She knows I am on here and has not expressed any desire to partake, her choice.

We should not judge the reason why there are not more woman on the forum any more than why the other 3/4 of men boaters are not on the forum, it is their personal choice.

 

[backinblue]

The forum does still come across overwhelmingly as an old man's social club including the predominant views on boating, on women, on society and on politics.

Like it or not, the majority of trawler owners ARE old men. Why should we pretend we are a perfectly diverse group and have to treat everyone with the proper woke correctness? It would be like going on a politically liberal site and say "you guys should be more conservative in your views so everyone feels welcome here". If you don't like being on a forum that is mostly older men, mostly white and mid to upper class I might add, then don't participate.

While I have the soapbox, I also want to complain about the political censorship here. I get the fact that religion and politics are personal and nobody wants a discussion of Trump vs. Biden, but certain boating topics are inherrently political. For example tax policy on boaters, alternative energies and how the green new deal could impact the future of boating. I think a discussion of these topics is healthy even if politics are part of it. It doesn't have to devolve into red vs. blue, but sometimes threads get shutdown just because a politcal view is expressed as it relates to the topic being discussed..

 

[BandB]

Brett and Belle you are two peas in a pod. Your writing style is very similar, you are in tune with each other. Good for you that both of you participate here.

My wife, the admiral is a boating woman. She knows I am on here and has not expressed any desire to partake, her choice.

We should not judge the reason why there are not more woman on the forum any more than why the other 3/4 of men boaters are not on the forum, it is their personal choice.

We are like peas in a pod, very seldom apart and most married couples cannot fathom the percentage of our time we spend together. I think too we become more and more alike as the years pass.

You're right about why anyone doesn't partake. We do know specifically why several chose to leave, primarily because we begged them not to go. Of course, we have hundreds of men who have left and I'm sure they have many different reasons.

One thing I've found is that whether it's a business or it's a forum, every place has a culture. It was likely established long ago and very difficult to change. The Culture of TF is just that way, with it's good and it's bad. Others leave, we choose to stay and live with those parts we don't especially like. If we wanted to have a forum with a different culture, we'd have to do as we did in business, start it ourselves. Not about to undertake such a project which would likely be doomed to failure anyway.

We're not the primary demographic here. We're younger and we like to go faster. Although younger fading as I now turn 51 in less than a week. So she's younger. What we are is "Cruisers" and we do more of that than nearly anyone here. Since May 15 nearly 15000 nm and 600 hours. Oddly, the same owners of this forum own "Cruisers Forum" and while the sailboaters there think it's a sailing forum, my wife once did a poll which quickly refuted that. However, we do not feel as comfortable there as we do here. Haven't been there in ages but did just sign in to see what is going on. Just in the past were too many sailors deriding all power boats plus too many promoting their schemes of law breaking whether tax and encouraging people with zero experience just to buy a $100 sailboat and start their circumnavigation, then defending the parents who almost killed their child.

Oh and while I post on Yacht Forum (Belle hasn't for years as to my knowledge only one active female there), there sure isn't much boating or cruising discussed there.

The fact is, for better or worse, this forum fits our interests the best of any we've found. Do we like everything here? Of course not, but then everyone doesn't like us either.

The culture here isn't going to change, but then neither am I nor is my wife. I'm sad over valued friends who left, but ultimately their choice and right. There are times we've been tempted but then times we're tempted to leave Florida or leave the US or any number of other things. Ultimately, we each choose for ourselves. One thing too is that each of us on this site only can really participate in a small part of it. Ask me how to fix an issue on a 120 hp Lehman and I'll send you elsewhere, but ask me about the Loop or marinas in SC I'll speak up. Ask my wife about the best ways of making coffee and she'll hide but ask her about boat handling and she'll be on topic. Ask her about sewing and she'll send you to a seamstress but ask her about bikini's and she knows the topic.

This is a place we all come to discuss certain things. It's not the place for all topics and it's not our life. We all have family and friends for that. We have aspects of life that are not for here. If TF is one's only socialization, I feel badly for them and encourage they look for other in their daily lives, but if TF is a place that adds a little to their day here and there, then that's great. As long as TF fits that description for us, we'll keep coming. When it doesn't, we won't.

 

[Dougcole]

Like others have said in this thread, my wife, who is a pretty experienced boater at this point and who is diametrically opposed to anything related to modern feminism, despises the term "admiral." I don't much like it either. We are also a bit younger than the average demographic here, so maybe that has something to do with it.



It's been said so many times that it is no longer even remotely funny or clever or witty, if it ever was. It's just a worn out, condescending trope that is ready for the trash bin.

 

[backinblue]

Not that I've ever done it, but I never considered the term "Admiral" to be condescending. I guess some have their own interpretation, I thought it was a sign of respect and consideration by prioritizing your wife's wishes and opinions and putting her on a pedestal like BandB likes to say. I never took it to be funny or clever or witty.

 

[SteveK]

Not that I've ever done it, but I never considered the term "Admiral" to be condescending. I guess some have their own interpretation, I thought it was a sign of respect and consideration by prioritizing your wife's wishes and opinions and putting her on a pedestal like BandB likes to say. I never took it to be funny or clever or witty.

you thought correctly. The admiral said I could be the captain.

 

[kthoennes]

Yep, I know it's a common reference but we've never used it either ("admiral" I mean). Just never developed the habit, felt kind of odd -- especially since we both make about the same money in life and generally split all the boat costs, and we've otherwise fallen into very traditional roles. I do think it would be very good for her to learn to drive the boat though, in case I ever keeled over or more likely, went tumbling overboard and she's got to retrieve me. It's so big she finds it very intimidating though.

I do have to admit I've barked at her a few times on the boat like Captain Ahab. One time I remember very clearly. I can't see the swim step from the helm and it always makes me very nervous when she's back there tossing a mooring line to a dock hand. I called to her once and she didn't answer, I called again -- nothing -- so I was sure she had fallen off and I was chopping her up in the propellers so I barked very sharply for her to answer me. She said she was just waiting to time her throw. Safety thing, answer when I'm calling, you're freaking me out!! That scenario happens so seldom though that we haven't done headsets, but when we shove off for the (northern) Loop, we might buy a set. Or I could install a back-up camera.

 

[BandB]

Not that I've ever done it, but I never considered the term "Admiral" to be condescending. I guess some have their own interpretation, I thought it was a sign of respect and consideration by prioritizing your wife's wishes and opinions and putting her on a pedestal like BandB likes to say. I never took it to be funny or clever or witty.

I think it depends on her role, but let me toss out one you sometimes see in business. The use of the word "boss." I've never had it directed to me but the only times I've ever seen it used it was being done so with bad intent. It was an employee who did not like his supervisor and refused to ever use her name. So a technically equal term used in a derogatory manner.

Now to Admiral. Some see it as referring to a superior rank. However, many see it as implying this is just the person who gives orders but doesn't actually do anything. I heard one lady say she'd prefer to be called first mate or deckhand. I don't think most would agree, but why not just "wife." Then there's another group and my wife falls into this one. It is those wives who are equally involved and competent. My wife has the same license I do. One of the former couples on here that left shared all boating responsibilities equally and she despised any implication by someone else that somehow she wasn't as hands on.

My advice would be if a couple is happy with the term then fine to use it. However, don't ever refer to someone else's wife as the "admiral." Not your place unless she's called herself that to you. Seems they way to avoid problems. That's the same with any pet names.

 

[backinblue]

I think all wives should at least have a basic understanding of how to operate the boat for emergencies like MOB or even just for a bathroom break for the capt. But just because my wife is more comfortable with me at the helm during docking while she tends to the lines, doesn't diminish her in any way in my eyes. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I have no problem calling her "my better half" and meaning it sincerely. I guess some would find that condescending too.

 

[BandB]

I think all wives should at least have a basic understanding of how to operate the boat for emergencies like MOB or even just for a bathroom break for the capt. But just because my wife is more comfortable with me at the helm during docking while she tends to the lines, doesn't diminish her in any way in my eyes. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I have no problem calling her "my better half" and meaning it sincerely. I guess some would find that condescending too.

The important question is how does she feel about it?

And I assume you don't refer to the spouses of others in that way?

 

[backinblue]

I think it depends on her role, but let me toss out one you sometimes see in business. The use of the word "boss." I've never had it directed to me but the only times I've ever seen it used it was being done so with bad intent. It was an employee who did not like his supervisor and refused to ever use her name. So a technically equal term used in a derogatory manner.

Now to Admiral. Some see it as referring to a superior rank. However, many see it as implying this is just the person who gives orders but doesn't actually do anything. I heard one lady say she'd prefer to be called first mate or deckhand. I don't think most would agree, but why not just "wife." Then there's another group and my wife falls into this one. It is those wives who are equally involved and competent. My wife has the same license I do. One of the former couples on here that left shared all boating responsibilities equally and she despised any implication by someone else that somehow she wasn't as hands on.

My advice would be if a couple is happy with the term then fine to use it. However, don't ever refer to someone else's wife as the "admiral." Not your place unless she's called herself that to you. Seems they way to avoid problems. That's the same with any pet names.

I guess it all depends on the sutuation and context. I have used the term "boss" and heard it used, but never once in a way that I felt was derogatory. In fact, I think the term "wife" could be thought of in a negative light. When it's used instead of someone's name that the other person you are talking to knows, saying "my wife" is almost like calling her an object or a posession or someone subservient instead of the individual she is.

 

[BandB]

I guess it all depends on the sutuation and context. I have used the term "boss" and heard it used, but never once in a way that I felt was derogatory. In fact, I think the term "wife" could be thought of in a negative light. When it's used instead of someone's name that the other person you are talking to knows, saying "my wife" is almost like calling her an object or a posession or someone subservient instead of the individual she is.

I agree. Except on the forum, I never refer to her other than by her name. I don't understand the need for another word. She's an individual and her name represents that. Now some of our friends refer to us both with all sorts of names that can't be repeated here.

I have a business rule to use first names. I know many businesses feel you should use Mr. or Ms. and Last Name and consider it respect. The ones I dislike are those who have you refer to the manager as Mr. or Ms. Last Name but they call you by first name.

You mentioned thinking of the term of "wife" as a possession. We did not use husband (or man) and wife in our wedding. It was, "By the powers vested in me by the state of Nevada, I'm happy to announce you as Partners in Life." Note we didn't use the word "pronounce" either. Also, no "you may now kiss the bride." We were able to figure out how to kiss each other without permission from the officiant.

Most of the time these choices of words don't matter, but when misused they may.

 

[backinblue]

But in your previous post you suggested "wife" was a great term to use even if you excluded it from your wedding. You are trying way to hard! Stop interpreting what the meaning is behind any post or what someone says. You think you are making things better but you are part of the problem creating issues where they don't exist. Latest example in the news today, we can no longer associate blue with boys and pink with girls. I have nbo doubt you are 100% behind that initiative.

 

[Janet H]

Working on the assumption that to change an organisation you need to work from the top down, perhaps it is time to extend an invitation to some to the established female forum members to become moderators.

ermm... I'm here.

I detest the term admiral as well because it seems disingenuous in many
instances. Not dying on this sword however - there are messier battles to be fought. (like who's going into the water to clean the bottom - this time).

 

[BandB]

ermm... I'm here.

I detest the term admiral as well because it seems disingenuous in many
instances. Not dying on this sword however - there are messier battles to be fought. (like who's going into the water to clean the bottom - this time).

Wifey B: You're here and a great asset, but sure wish you participated more in the forum. All work and no play isn't fair to site teamers.

 

[Bacchus]

ermm... I'm here.



I detest the term admiral as well because it seems disingenuous in many

instances. Not dying on this sword however - there are messier battles to be fought. (like who's going into the water to clean the bottom - this time).

I for one will say that Janet H is very modest re her contributions. The earlier post re starting at the top... Janet is the top to us mods. So it is already in place and the TF Mods frequently consult Janet to provide guidance and advice re moderation and happy to say her advice has been sound and well received.
I will also submit that many / most of the comments that turn off our female members is not a blatant violation of TF rules and an obvious opportunity to moderate more diligently. I would contend that the mods can and do take care of the obvious violation of rules but would suggest that members be a little more proactive pointing out the kind of comments and behavior that turns our female members away. The first step to initiating change is a genuine awareness of the situation and its impact.

 

[Andy G]

Janet H;1044972]ermm... I'm here.



Yes, you have been here for a long time. Right through the bad old days of OTDE. A steady hand to keep the sometime scurvy crew in line.

 

[Janet H]

Regarding have more women mods... there is some validity to this but more important I think, is level headed team members who are able remain neutral, diffuse prickly situations and keep topics on track (regardless of gender).

We reply on site members to report problems and we always check out the complaints. If there are posts that are out of line - flag them...

 

[Peter B]

Andy G posted this...
"Working on the assumption that to change an organisation you need to work from the top down, perhaps it is time to extend an invitation to some to the established female forum members to become moderators."

Janet responded with...
ermm... I'm here.

Then followed up with...
Regarding have more women mods... there is some validity to this but more important I think, is level headed team members who are able remain neutral, diffuse prickly situations and keep topics on track (regardless of gender).

Following up on Janet's comment, I think it is indeed appropriate and worthwhile to underline how good it is, and how appreciated it is by us mods, (seeing, of necessity, this thread has become to some extent about discussing moderation), when ordinary members with level heads exert a degree of, let's say, 'moderating influence', on the direction a thread might be taking of a less than ideal nature, thus saving us mods having to come in on it at all.

Also, for the record, there is definitely no top-down influence limiting the recruitment of new moderators. We did have Pineapple Girl on here as a mod for quite some time. Dating back in fact to before the current 'owner' took the reins. Sadly, any we have approached since have declined. Sadly, as is the subject of this thread, there have been all too few to ask.

We would just love to see more female members on here, preferably under their own monicker as well, so we can know for sure who we are responding to, and also so they can establish the sort of track record that might encourage us to approach them to maybe become a moderator.

On thinking about it, I don't really see it as a male issue that there are so few. As Brett of BandB pointed out, nothing we can do is likely to change this. Surely it is up to the women to step up, put their hands up, and be prepared to not back down to any posters they feel are trying to put them down. I know you'll have no trouble believing me when I say there are plenty of members on here who would jump in to back them up if that happened. Surely that is how you change a culture..?

So, think about it everyone. The issue has been aired. Anyone care to step up..?

 

[BruceK]

Regarding have more women mods... there is some validity to this but more important I think, is level headed team members who are able remain neutral, diffuse prickly situations and keep topics on track (regardless of gender)....

I`ve seen people slammed for advocating 'competence over gender", but still think it has merit.
But, for TF to be "fully gender diverse and inclusive",we`d need a Site Team from the various GLTBI categories plus,a trans man,a trans woman, someone androgynous....
It shouldn`t be purely for gender reasons. Look at Australian public company boards,lots of quite undistinguished female Directors, for little other reason. Look what happened at AMP, a largely female Board incl. the Chair, getting aggressive and into deep trouble with Regulators.
Male predominance on the Site Team may simply come from more men taking on the responsibility of "running the boat".
That said, there are female members who could do a great job,and I hope they respond positively to Peter`s invitation.

 

[BandB]

Because men run the world?

Wifey B: Mine was a joke as well. I meant left and "i" out of ru n....

 

[backinblue]

Wifey B: Mine was a joke as well. I meant left and "i" out of ru n....

LOL, thanks because I didn't take it that way at first. Good one.

 

[SteveK]

LOL, thanks because I didn't take it that way at first. Good one.

The English language, grammar is funny.
It was an "i" not an "I' which changes the intended meaning. At first glance "I" was assumed. Well played wifey

 

[backinblue]

Agreed. I took it as "I" as well!