Your hull type

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Moonstruck

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Moonstruck
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Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
FF gave me the idea to see what percentage of hull types are represented on TF. *Please participate in the poll so that we can get a good idea.
 
I question the % of full displacment as most pleasure trawler as semi displacemnt.*
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The*popular*TRUE full displacment are Nordhavn, Krogan, and Selene.*As far as I am concern 90% of the pleasure trawler as semi displacement.*
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So maybe a definition of full and semi displacment is needed first.*
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*

*
 
RE: Your hull Whtype

Phil Fill wrote:
I question the % of full displacment as most pleasure trawler as semi displacemnt.*
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The*popular*TRUE full displacment are Nordhavn, Krogan, and Selene.*As far as I am concern 90% of the pleasure trawler as semi displacement.*
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So maybe a definition of full and semi displacment is needed first.*
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*

Phil, I think you are mostly right, but maybe Willards and a few others could be added. *Maybe the question should have been what kind of hull do you think you have. *We also have no way of knowing if someone with a semi displacement hull running at displacement speeds has checked full displacement. *Where is Eric when we need him? **
*
 
Moonstruck wrote:Phil Fill wrote:
I question the % of full displacment as most pleasure trawler as semi displacemnt.*
confuse.gif
The*popular*TRUE full displacment are Nordhavn, Krogan, and Selene.*As far as I am concern 90% of the pleasure trawler as semi displacement.*
hmm.gif


So maybe a definition of full and semi displacment is needed first.*
confuse.gif


*

Phil, I think you are mostly right, but maybe Willards and a few others could be added. *Maybe the question should have been what kind of hull do you think you have. *We also have no way of knowing if someone with a semi displacement hull running at displacement speeds has checked full displacement. *Where is Eric when we need him? **
*

*While I at first agreed with this logic...I woke up and realized it's just going to be one huge discussion that can't be resolved unless someone wants to be very*specific which rarely occurs in these forums. :)

While most of the 1970s-1990s "typical" trawler designs I would agree more closely resemble semi-displacement...they are so poorly designed to be semi-displacement that pushing them even 1 knot over hull speed results in a drastic increase in fuel consumption and stern wave.

That by definition is sorta like full displacement even though they aren't full displacement based on energy required to drive them at hull speed...what the heck????

So how do I answer?????*
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*
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-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 24th of February 2012 10:41:41 AM
 
Believe the Coot has a semi-displacement/planing*hull.* But since she has insufficient horsepower to plane and moves through rather than on the water, it qualifies as a "trawler" rather than "sedan cruiser" using Chapman's definitions.

Perhaps it would be helpful if the ratio*of theoretical hull speed versus maximum speed is calculated

For the Coot: 1.34 times the square root of 31.75' waterline equals theoretical max. hull speed of 7.55 knots.* Actual maximum speed is 7.7 knots, giving*a ratio of 1.02.


-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 24th of February 2012 12:09:56 PM
 

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Which boat?? I have one semi-displacement, one planing. :)
 
Woodsong wrote:
Which boat?? I have one semi-displacement, one planing. :)
*How about the one you're keeping. *Under that logic I have several homes.
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For anyone who has doubts about which form your hull is, wait until Eric (Nomadilly) checks in. *He can tell you.


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Friday 24th of February 2012 12:13:15 PM
 
I really should not have voted because it taints the desired rusults of a study because I currently iwn a sailboat.

I dont remember the exact requirements to be considered full or semi-displacement but there is a significant difference in design. The one thing I am almost positive about is that with a full displacement hull, you can never plane. The boat would tend to porpose at a particular speed but not plane. I am not sure but I think a semi-displacement hull is similar to full displacement in the front but tends to flatten out some toward the rear.

If you look at a typical full displacement sailboat hull in the water (in the boat slip) down at the rear at the waterline, the boat comes to a point with no flat stern area in the water. It is designed so that while moving, the bow pushes the water aside and then this water moves along the sides of the hull and smoothly comes back to the pointed (rounded)*area and actulaay helps push the boat forward. A flat stern in the water creates turbulance at the stern which requires more power to propel it.

*

*

*


-- Edited by Tony B on Friday 24th of February 2012 12:47:00 PM
 
Simply look at the stern.

The width of the transom at the WL in feet will be close to the speed expected in K.on a 40-50 ft boat.
 
If that where the case FF, Don wouldn't be talking about passing the boats that are cruising in front of him at 24 knots
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CPseudonym wrote:
If that where the case FF, Don wouldn't be talking about passing the boats that are cruising in front of him at 24 knots
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*That's probably a pretty good rule of thumb for most boats. *Once the transom breaks free and is above the surface, the speed is limited by the power and stability of the hull. *In my case 1000 hp and gobs of torque will take it well over the hump. *When the weather is good, we run offshore as much as possible. *In the waterway, we sometimes have to slow pass 25-35 boats. *That gets tiring, but that's how it is. *We don't mind anyone out there sail or trawler. *It's theirs too. *

Sometimes we are one of the few fast cruisers out with the trawlers. *The only real difference in our cruising style is speed. *Oh yeah, we burn a litt.le more. *That is the trade off. *Not being fully retired, we don't have the time some do. *We are willing to make that trade off.
 
markpierce wrote:
Believe the Coot has a semi-displacement/planing*hull.
*From your photos I would agree although the bottom of your boat has more curved sections than the typical semi-planing hull used on something like a GB, CHB, etc.

To me a displacement hull is one that, while it can be forced a bit faster through the water with the application of a huge amount of power, most of that engergy is absorbed by the hull digging a deeper hole in the water.

A semi-planing hull (I agree with naval architects like Tom Fexas that semi-displacement is simply a marketing term) is one in which an addition of a lot of power results not in the boat digging a deeper hole but in generating enough hydrodynamic pressure against the flatter surfaces of the hull to begin to lift it up in the water, thus reducing wetted surface, thus reducing drag, thus enabling it to go faster albeit with an increase in fuel burn--- very possibly a significant increase as in the case of the previous generation of GB hulls.

A planing hull is just that.* A hull that is designed to generate the maximum possible hydrodynamic force against the wetted surfaces of the hull and thus lift the hull a lot and reduce the drag a lot in as efficient a manner as possible.* This in turn means the boat can go considerably faster than a semi-planing boat with the same power and WAY faster than a displacement boat of the same length, and the greater speed makes the increased fuel burn at least theoretically a good return on the investment.

Those are my definitions of the three hull types.* So based on them, I would say Coot has a semi-planing hull but a pretty inefficient one if one actually wanted to take advantage of its ability to be lifted and reduce the wetted surface and drag.* Major power would be needed.*

So why use a semi-planing hull on a low-powered boat like the Coot or an early GB?** One advantage of this hull type even at slow speeds is that the flat after-section, sharp-chined hull will provide a less rolly ride than a hull with a typical, rounded displacement configuration.* This is certainly true of our GB.* However, less roll comes with a price in that the characteristics of the roll with its sharper "snap back" are uncomfortable to a lot of people.

The second advantage is that a semi-planing hull can be driven a little bit faster than displacement speed with the application of not-that-much-more power.* So while the displacement speed of our hull is seven-point-something knots, the hull can be driven at eight, eight and a half knots without a lot more power or fuel burn needed.* A half to a whole knot more speed doesn't sound like much but to a lot of people--- and the sales department--- it is.

The hull on our boat could be driven at 14 knots or so.* Later GB36s with big engines can achieve this.* But at that point the fuel burn becomes enormous.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 24th of February 2012 03:28:03 PM
 
Moonstruck wrote:The only real difference in our cruising style is speed. *Oh yeah, we burn a litt.le more. *That is the trade off. *Not being fully retired, we don't have the time some do. *We are willing to make that trade off.
*That's the direction the wife and I are leaning. I have a ways to go before slowing down and retiring. We are willing to make the trade off as well. Our first power boat will most likely be a 30ish foot with 20+ knot speed as well... We are enjoying the sailboat in the meantime.
 
Moonstruck wrote:Under that logic I have several homes.
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*



-- Edited by Moonstruck on Friday 24th of February 2012 12:13:15 PM

*
We can't all by high rollers like you Don!! *
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Actually...I assume our 45 is a planing hull. *She has a small keel, prop pockets, and soft chines. *When I haul her out I will take pics.
 
Woodsong wrote:Moonstruck wrote:Under that logic I have several homes.
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*

*
We can't all by high rollers like you Don!! *
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*

*Yes, you can be a high roller too. *Several are for sale. *You can be a real estate mogul in no time.
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The ultimate semi-planing hull is the Canadian Navy Frigate, Halifax Class. It pokes along under diesel power, to 16 knots, displacement speed. When the gas turbine engine is used, it planes at 40 knots.
 
I thought it was 29 knots.

 
Woodsong wrote:
Actually...I assume our 45 is a planing hull. *She has a small keel, prop pockets, and soft chines. *When I haul her out I will take pics.
Actually I'd venture to say that you have a semi displacement hull. Thats what I think of our 4788 as.

As you indicated she has a full keel, and soft chines.

I've found that mine even at 15 knots is not realy "over the hump" like our planing hull cruisers were.

I could be wrong, but that seems to fit the definition of "semi displacement" *that boat builders and the public have come to use to define a boat that exceeds hull speed but is not as fast as a "cruiser".

That said, I tend to agree with Beebes definition of boat hulls* being either displacement or planing. Using Voyaging Under Power as a guide we own planing hull boats.

Perhaps a better poll would be " What is the maximum speed of your boat"

The link below is to Bruce Roberts site and is his opinion of the differences between hull forms.

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/POWERBOAT_DESIGN.htm*


-- Edited by ksanders on Saturday 25th of February 2012 09:20:06 AM
 
Doubt this ship motoring*will reach hull speed with square sails heading into the wind.* (Treasure Island and Yerba Buena [good herb] Island in the background.)


-- Edited by markpierce on Saturday 25th of February 2012 12:00:07 AM
 

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*

Our 34'*Tolly Tri Cabin is Planing Hull:

*

6.5 / 6.7*knots at*1900 to 2100 rpm on one engine*= 2 + knpg (hull speed calcs 7.58 knots).* Enjoyable speed*to cruise inland water ways (i.e. SF Bay Delta's slim,*levee lined*canals).* At this relaxing speed... Admiral loves it!* I like that it is easy on drive line and very quite.* Captain (that be me) alternates engine use approximately each hour. And, wake is mellow.*

*

16 /17 knots at 3400 to 3600*rpm on twin screw*= 1+/- knpg.* Full plane and comfortable for a cruise.* Covers fair amount of territory*during multi hour*trip.* Trim tabs set boat at good attitude to a relaxed water surface, she handles well, and drive line has no problem with it!* Synced rpm engines make a powerful combined humming sound that I much enjoy listening to.* Still plenty quiet in main salon and state rooms for normal volume conversations... due to well insulated engine compartment with plenty of outside airflow.* Wake is not too tall.

*

21 + knots at 4300 / 4500 rpm = 1/2 to 3/4 knpg I guess?? (WOT 4600 / 4700 rpm).* I feel it pushes entire drive line too far into top performance levels for extended use.* I use this rpm/speed only in extremely necessary situations and for shortest period possible.* But, it is available if required!* Ive*used this rpm/speed three times in years. wake flattens considerable.

*

None of these numbers are scientific results; all are result of to my observation and experience... but, I bet cha they aint far off!!* LOL

*

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-- Edited by Art on Saturday 25th of February 2012 10:21:40 AM
 
"Hull speed" and the rules for hull speed only relate to common boats with a length to beam ratio of 3-1 or so.

Once one gets to at least 6-1 or better 8-1 the boat may stay in displacement mode and yer high speeds are available.

Look at most of the commuters of the 20's , unfortuniatly heavy from their construction and the monster engines of their time , but well over 20K.

Cats and trimirans can use these shinny hulls IF they are operated at high speeds.

At low trawler crawler speeds the cats are less efficient than a similar weight 3-1 boat due to much increased wetted surface.

And of course the wide spaced hulls give the GB floating box snap roll in beam conditions.
 
FF wrote:
Simply look at the stern.

The width of the transom at the WL in feet will be close to the speed expected in K.on a 40-50 ft boat.
*Boy I can't wait to go 18knots.

img_76913_0_8c2ec545d05888c0bc29448c229854f5.jpg
 
Our heavy and fairly-deep-V (19 degrees at the transom) hull seems to be what the boatdiesel prop calculator calls "slow planing".* Cruises nicely at 18 knots, getting about 1.75 nmpg, with 260hp of Volvo diesel and duo-prop sterndrive.* Cuts through the chop beautifully.

Could go a lot faster with a big block gas engine, but the sweet spot for handling is no more than about 24. We've had her up to almost 30 in "light ship" condition, but low 20's felt a lot more controlled.* Max speed fully loaded for a long SE Alaska cruise is 25.

We cruise mostly at 6-6.5 knots, getting 4.5 nmpg.*

Pretty nice combination of higher/lower speed capabilities.
 
ksanders wrote:Woodsong wrote:
Actually...I assume our 45 is a planing hull. *She has a small keel, prop pockets, and soft chines. *When I haul her out I will take pics.
Actually I'd venture to say that you have a semi displacement hull. Thats what I think of our 4788 as.

As you indicated she has a full keel, and soft chines.

I've found that mine even at 15 knots is not realy "over the hump" like our planing hull cruisers were.

I could be wrong, but that seems to fit the definition of "semi displacement" *that boat builders and the public have come to use to define a boat that exceeds hull speed but is not as fast as a "cruiser".

That said, I tend to agree with Beebes definition of boat hulls* being either displacement or planing. Using Voyaging Under Power as a guide we own planing hull boats.

Perhaps a better poll would be " What is the maximum speed of your boat"

The link below is to Bruce Roberts site and is his opinion of the differences between hull forms.

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/POWERBOAT_DESIGN.htm*



-- Edited by ksanders on Saturday 25th of February 2012 09:20:06 AM

*The way I look at it is if the water is breaking free of the transom, and you can see to the bottom of the hull exposed, you are definitely planing.
 
Moonstruck wrote:ksanders wrote:Woodsong wrote:
Actually...I assume our 45 is a planing hull. *She has a small keel, prop pockets, and soft chines. *When I haul her out I will take pics.
Actually I'd venture to say that you have a semi displacement hull. Thats what I think of our 4788 as.

As you indicated she has a full keel, and soft chines.

I've found that mine even at 15 knots is not realy "over the hump" like our planing hull cruisers were.

I could be wrong, but that seems to fit the definition of "semi displacement" *that boat builders and the public have come to use to define a boat that exceeds hull speed but is not as fast as a "cruiser".

That said, I tend to agree with Beebes definition of boat hulls* being either displacement or planing. Using Voyaging Under Power as a guide we own planing hull boats.

Perhaps a better poll would be " What is the maximum speed of your boat"

The link below is to Bruce Roberts site and is his opinion of the differences between hull forms.

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/POWERBOAT_DESIGN.htm*



-- Edited by ksanders on Saturday 25th of February 2012 09:20:06 AM

*The way I look at it is if the water is breaking free of the transom, and you can see to the bottom of the hull exposed, you are definitely planing.

*Then we are not planing

Our 4788 seems to "squat" the more power we apply.

Like most other large boats, the original engines in the original design were much smaller than what the manufacturer ended up with at the end of the production run.

Personally I think it is/was a mistake to keep adding larger engines to boats in order to meet a market demographic.

When we re-powered our 4788 I seriously considered going with the Cummins NA engines at about 165 HP (If my memory is correct). The only reason I opted with 330's is because of resale.
 
Ksanders:

If your 4788 has the stock engines, you will never plane. Add 1000 hp and you might. Add 2000 and you will for sure. Don't send me your fuel bill.
 
I think semi-displacement is a totally bogus term thought up by marketing people who wanted to associate their boats with the supposed ruggedness, seaworthiness, etc. that "displacement" conjures up. Same marketing mentality that applied the term "trawler" to what in reality is a cabin cruiser.

Displacement is like dead. You either are or you aren't. You can't be semi-dead, nor can a hull be semi-displacement.

Planing, on the other hand, refers to the ability of the hydrodynamic pressure on the wetted surfaces of the hull generating enough force to lift the hull, reduce the wetted surface, thus reducing the drag, thus enabling the hull to move through/over the water much faster. There are varying degrees of how much the hull can be lifted. Almost all the way up so only a small portion of the hull is needed to contact the water to generate sufficient hydrodynamic force to hold most of the hull actually clear of the water---- the absolute full plane---- to a hull design/power combination that lifts the hull somewhat out of the water, reducing the drag somewhat, and allowing a degree of additional speed. The term semi-planing is an accurate one for this. Because as soon as you start generating sufficient hydrodynamic force against the hull to lift it, you are starting to plane the boat. If it's not on a full plane, it's on a semi-plane.

But displacement is always just that--- displacement. There's no semi- about it, because as soon as you start generating lifting force, you are entering a planing condition, albeit not a very efficient one unless your hull design and power permit it. Semi-planing describes that condition in a meaningful way. Semi-displacement does not, in my (as well as some noted naval architects') opinion.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 08:03:45 PM
 
My boat is semi-everything...

Semi-efficient
Semi-costly
Semi-done
Semi-used enough (even though I'm a liveaboard :)
Semi-quick
Semi-planing
Semi-displacement
Semi-manueverable

ooops...the best isn't semi.... because it's ALL-paid for* :)



-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 25th of February 2012 04:11:59 PM


-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 25th of February 2012 04:13:39 PM
 
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