Newby kills batteries, locks self out of ER

[Ken C]

After two successful short cruises, we returned to the new-to-us boat after a week for our third day-cruise to find no 12V power. Shore power correct, look for a simple explanation but eventually see voltmeter reads 11v. ah-oh. See that all switches in main panel were off including one labelled AC Converter. Having earlier convinced myself that all the circuits that are upstream of bat switches are in a panel in ER including two labelled charger out port and stbd I did not think I had turned off charger - but I had. Now recall that wife mentioned the fridge was cold. I sorta blew that off knowing the main panel fridge switch was off, "maybe it's just well insulated". I knew that was silly when I said it. Turns out along with bilge, blower, etc, there is also a switch in ER for 12v fridge. WHY

It gets better. I charge for awhile and get some power back on one bank but not on the bank running those upstream circuits. So maybe it's not just one bank but a breaker or something Did I mention that also powers the hatch lift?

No problem, boat has 4" access ports in sole to pull pins and manually lift hatch. Took some fanagling but got port pin out. Stbd pin is totally stuck. I've pulled so hard that I've deformed a pretty stout pull ring on pin. Spent about two hours sticking every tool I own into hole trying to get on pin. Cursed my luck having pin stuck now but I guess it could have been wedged for years without ever affecting electric lift. Ran out of time, ideas, and patience. Went home.

Went back next day, 1.5 hr one way, in the hopes that charger brought some power back and I could jog hatch lift switch enough to dislodge pin and start checking electrical. Nothing. In my agitated state I also forgot to turn off fridge (in fridge, not at ER panel) the previous day so at least did that. Spent two more hours putting the tips of various tools in the vicinity of a wedged pin that I can't see or reach. Again ran dry of ideas and patience.

I have a call in to mechanics familiar with the boat in the hopes I've overlooked something obvious. I'm not sure how much damage I've done to batteries, not even sure how various systems are split between banks (2 banks of 2x27M flooded 12v), but can't get in to start troubleshooting.

I know you would need many more details to offer useful advice, but most of them I either don't know or can't currently confirm. I mostly wrote this for my own therapy. I think it helped a little

 

[Blissboat]

Welcome to the "my-new-boat learning curve." Sometimes it's shallow, sometimes it's steep, but it's always uphill. You're doing fine!

 

[Comodave]

I have an electric drive to lift my engine hatch, the big one that is the size of the cockpit. But I also have a smaller hatch about 2’x3’ to do quick checks in the engine room so if the electric drive craps out I can still get into the engine room. Do you have room to add a second hatch for the next time the motor doesn’t work?

 

[Art]

Cooperative-Lamentations... over batteries.

4:30 PM went to boat today. Been a couple weeks. Some how [it may actually be me - 1st time in 15 years... gerrrrr] the two Main Perko switches were left on. Always they are to be turned off when boat not in use [that leaves the 4 parallel linked, 31 deep cycle, LA batt house bank isolated with no drain and no need to receive constant float charging]. According to multi charger... 25% charge all that remained in house bank. I immediately plugged boat into shore power and turned charger on. Plan to review at 7AM tomorrow! Hope the 5 year old house bank still has some life after that tooooo deep a discharge.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

My boat is older, I don't trust my Perko switches simply because I did not install them and am not certain of all the wiring. I do know that there is a very, very small "ghost" draw which will kill the batteries dead as dead as can be over about four months. I think it may be the alternator feed to the tachs but am not certain. For over winter storage I either remove the battery cables or remove the batteries completely.

pete

 

[tiltrider1]

You have shortened the life of your batteries but I doubt you have killed them. You will need to do a few things.

First you didn’t say what type. Assuming they are standard wet cell batteries, you will need to top off the water with distilled water. Then you will need to charge the batteries. You will want to preform what is called an equalization charge. Then top of the battery water again.

The batteries will work fine after that. You might notice that they won’t go as long between charges but you won’t need to replace them until the time between charges is annoyingly to short.

 

[BruceK]

One joy of FLA batteries is the ability to hydrometer test their condition. It`s fairly easy, and definitive. This YouTube video explains it"

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm not sure how much damage I've done to batteries, not even sure how various systems are split between banks (2 banks of 2x27M flooded 12v), but can't get in to start troubleshooting.

Your boat likely uses a battery architecture quite common to non-trawler powerboats built here in the US: main dual-purpose battery banks, each of which starts an engine and then also services house loads (including helm electronics).

Your main panel may give you some hints about which bank supports which house loads. Your may have columns of breakers under "Battery 1" or "Battery 2" (or similar) headings... and if so, then commonly all the breakers in that column work from the same battery bank.

But then you're usually best off to test that too, partly to confirm and partly to learn which physical battery bank is 1 or 2 or whatever...

The fridge will likely be an AC/DC model, which often run on AC as primary when AC is present... but then self-switch to DC whenever AC isn't available. (As when underway.)

If you have a generator, that may have it's own battery too. If so, you could usually use that to run AC appliances, along with the AC-to-DC converter (battery charger) in case you overly deplete your main banks at anchor or whatever.

You may (probably do) also have a parallel switch (perhaps marked emergency start) at your helm... to temporarily combine your main banks together in case low-ish voltage is making an engine have trouble starting.

Your main battery banks need decent cranking amps to start your engines. They also need decent capacity to service house loads. Typically, a "dual-purpose" battery is an OK solution. Since you have two banks of 2x G27s... you might investigate whether space will also allow 2x G31s whenever you find you have to replace a battery bank. The footprints are similar, and that's often an easy way to slightly improve your bank capacity...

If you intend to anchor out often, you'll want to change out all your lights to LED, especially your anchor light, if that's not been done already. Usually that can be as simple as replacing "bulbs."

-Chris

 

[Ken C]

Thanks for the battery advice - it feels spot on for my situation, with one current exception: I can't get to them. No room for a second smaller hatch but may be able to put a second 4" access port next to pin to hammer it out. Or possibly remove hatch hinges.

What is the risk of continuing to charge a bank that I cannot check for water in batteries? I want to give them every chance to recharge and energize hatch lift, but don't want to ruin them (if not already). Charger is Intela-power model PD2030, if that's relavent.

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks for the battery advice - it feels spot on for my situation, with one current exception: I can't get to them. No room for a second smaller hatch but may be able to put a second 4" access port next to pin to hammer it out. Or possibly remove hatch hinges.

What is the risk of continuing to charge a bank that I cannot check for water in batteries? I want to give them every chance to recharge and energize hatch lift, but don't want to ruin them (if not already). Charger is Intela-power model PD2030, if that's relavent.

Wouldn't be great, but you could try turning on your battery charger (AC converter), see if that at least gets you enough charge to lift your hatch. 11VDC is too low to power stuff, but at least it's not 7VDC or some such...

If the charger does at least get you going, then water and charge more as soon as possible after that.

You could also try engaging the parallel (emergency start) switch while trying to activate your hatch lifter. That parallel may only work on engines, don't know... but it might actually parallel the batteries for everything at the same time, so maybe worth a shot.

-Chris

 

[Iggy]

Thanks for the battery advice - it feels spot on for my situation, with one current exception: I can't get to them. No room for a second smaller hatch but may be able to put a second 4" access port next to pin to hammer it out. Or possibly remove hatch hinges.

What is the risk of continuing to charge a bank that I cannot check for water in batteries? I want to give them every chance to recharge and energize hatch lift, but don't want to ruin them (if not already). Charger is Intela-power model PD2030, if that's relavent.

Most batteries today are maintenance free. Meaning, you don't check for water. But you used the word "flooded". If the really are, I would stop charging unless you checked within the past few days.

Personally, if they are flooded. I would change them out to AGM batteries. No water, higher output size for size and more.

Just a thought. Most boats like yours have, what I call jumper post. That you can use jumper cables to power the hatch just for this reason.

 

[Ken C]

Yes flooded and no, I haven't checked since purchase a few weeks ago. (I will add check to a routine) No jump posts that I know of. There is a momentary switch on helm to jump battery banks but it didn't seem to have any effect. As someone said, possibly only jumps starters...?

 

[Steve1.0]

SeaRay customer service is pretty good. Have you tried talking with them? They probably still have the details on your boat. I've moved many dozens of boats (mostly 51s and 65s) for them, to and from the factory in Florida.

 

[Iggy]

Yes flooded and no, I haven't checked since purchase a few weeks ago. (I will add check to a routine) No jump posts that I know of. There is a momentary switch on helm to jump battery banks but it didn't seem to have any effect. As someone said, possibly only jumps starters...?

That switch at the helm I believe to to combine both banks. Look in the storage compartment at the transom for the battery post.

 

[Art]

Cooperative-Lamentations... over batteries.

4:30 PM went to boat today. Been a couple weeks. Some how [it may actually be me - 1st time in 15 years... gerrrrr] the two Main Perko switches were left on. Always they are to be turned off when boat not in use [that leaves the 4 parallel linked, 31 deep cycle, LA batt house bank isolated with no drain and no need to receive constant float charging]. According to multi meter 25% charge all that remained in house bank. I immediately plugged boat into shore power and turned charger on. Plan to review at 7AM tomorrow! Hope the 5 year old house bank still has some life after that tooooo deep a discharge.

Well... Feel I should report on battery misstake above... and... IMO it's a good one - way better than I imagined would occur.

After charging for 17 +/- hours straight with a 40 amp charger [it may be 60 amps] I then completely isolated the batt bank and turned off the charger at 7 AM. 6 PM that day I put multi meter onto the batts. After 11 hours they still read 100% charged. Plan to check them in a day or two... having been isolated and no charge for a few days... we'll see what they settle at!

 

[BruceK]

Most batteries today are maintenance free. Meaning, you don't check for water. But you used the word "flooded". If the really are, I would stop charging unless you checked within the past few days..

Dying sealed batteries can and do explode, they need checking before that happens. Floodeds can relieve pressure, theoretically SLAs do too, but... I understand the OP needs to charge the batts to power an opening hatch, to access the batts to assess them. He may have no option but to charge.

 

[Art]

Dying sealed batteries can and do explode, they need checking before that happens. Floodeds can relieve pressure, theoretically SLAs do too, but... I understand the OP needs to charge the batts to power an opening hatch, to access the batts to assess them. He may have no option but to charge.

If available... and they seem to be getting less so... I always purchase FLA batts that have one way or another access to fluid level review and increase if needed in each cell. Seems to me that as long as the distilled water level is maintained there is little to no chance of explosion due to charging.

Also, IMO... regarding FLA Batts: The reason some manufactures are producing sealed cases for "service free" BS advertising is because they want to batt to fail sooner rather than later [quite the sales gimmick]. "Service free" FLA batts still have breather holes and during use their fluid still slowly drops in the cells until the batt core becomes dry on top and the batt then fails.

I believe that average batt lifespan is 2 ro 1: FLA's with fluid level check and keep-it-full capability last 8 to 10 or more years. No fluid level access "service free" FLA batts last 4 to 5 years. Again - quite the sales gimmick! Batt manufacrurer doubles its batt sales with the "service free" BS!! :lol:

 

[Nick F]

+ 1

 

[Ken C]

I'm going to try to get to the boat today to see if it has exploded or maybe even charged and I can get into hatch. I expect some outcome between those two. The battery discussion has left me a bit confused so let me add two factors and seek more input: the boat has always stayed on shore power, continuously maintaining batteries, and I would prefer to keep that arrangement. And second, everything in the engine pit is difficult to reach and I would trade some years of service to not have to lay across engines with head over batteries and check fluid. Given that: FLA or AGMs?

 

[ranger58sb]

And second, everything in the engine pit is difficult to reach and I would trade some years of service to not have to lay across engines with head over batteries and check fluid. Given that: FLA or AGMs?

Difficult to check would probably also mean difficult to water... unless you install a watering system on FLAs.

Were it me, the easy choice would be AGMs. If you do that and get decent ones you shouldn't find yourself trading longevity for ease. The AGMs would just be more expensive.

In either (any) case, you want to be able to set your battery charger to voltages that the batteries (whatever brand and type you choose) want.

-Chris

 

[Comodave]

When you do get the hatch open I would run a set of power leads to the lift motor in parallel to the current ones and have them extend up into an area that you could hook an emergency battery to so that if this ever happens again you could temporarily hook a battery to the leads and the hatch will come up. Just insulate the ends so they don’t inadvertently short out.

 

[OldDan1943]

I'm going to try to get to the boat today to see if it has exploded or maybe even charged and I can get into hatch. I expect some outcome between those two. The battery discussion has left me a bit confused so let me add two factors and seek more input: the boat has always stayed on shore power, continuously maintaining batteries, and I would prefer to keep that arrangement. And second, everything in the engine pit is difficult to reach and I would trade some years of service to not have to lay across engines with head over batteries and check fluid. Given that: FLA or AGMs?

AGM and go about your life. Just adjust the charger for AGM

Some folks will suggest LifePro over the standard AGM. Obviously they cost more and I do believe some modification to the charging system.
I use the standard AGM batteries. No problems.

I have been told not to mix battery chemistry. Make sense because the charger might have to be adjusted the chemestry.

 

[BruceK]

Another vote for AGM. Especially with bad access. I doubt FLAs exploding, unlike "sealed" they can vent to relieve pressure. Looking forward to the inspection report after you get the hatch open.

 

[Ken C]

Happy update! Batteries were drained but not dead. At some point of declining voltage the helm switch pad for aft bank of circuits lost coms. What I thought was a seriously dead bat was an electronic issue. Mechanic found, did the highly technical unplug and plug back in thing, thus regaining among other things, lift hatch power.

Hatch pin was impossible to pull because lift cylinders were out of sync putting to much pressure on pin to pull it. Again, unplug, set cylinders evenly, repower.

Battery state will be assessed more thoroughly once my $6 hydrometer arrives, but I believe I now have time to understand my 12v power situation more fully before changing anything.

In conclusion: mistakes made, clues overlooked, anxiety raised, lessons learned, back to boating!

 

[OldDan1943]

Buy the batteries locally in case of a defective battery. Tell the seller you will buy their batteries if they install them and cart off the old batteries.
No need for you to risk your back.

 

[BruceK]

Progress! Here`s hoping the batts come good.

There`s a battery conditioner product called Inox I once used in FLA batts with good results, reviving 2 of 3 poorly maintained batteries that came with a boat. Sulfur comes out of the acid and adheres to the plates, result of undercharging, Inox helps with that. Equalization helps too, it pulses the sulfur off the plates back into solution at raised voltage, you need to top up afterwards. Not too often though, I think it`s hard on batts.

 

[Art]

Well... Feel I should report on battery misstake above... and... IMO it's a good one - way better than I imagined would occur.

After charging for 17 +/- hours straight with a 40 amp charger [it may be 60 amps] I then completely isolated the batt bank and turned off the charger at 7 AM. 6 PM that day I put multi meter onto the batts. After 11 hours they still read 100% charged. Plan to check them in a day or two... having been isolated and no charge for a few days... we'll see what they settle at!

After four, 5 years old, SLI31MDC Duracell Ultra BCI Group 31M 12V 105AH 650CCA Flooded Deep Cycle Marine Batts, hooked up in parallel, hit the too low level of only a 25% charge [due to a mistake - I pride myself in not letting them get below 50% before full recharge]. 36 hours after turning charger off and isolating the batt bank... on a multi meter... they settled at over 95% charged... not too bad for 5 year old batts!! I was afraid I'd killed em when only 25% charge was all that had previously remained.

 

[Choices]

If you can get to the back of the 12 vdc breaker panel you can back feed panel with a charger or another battery and operate lift.

 

[ranger58sb]

Happy update! Batteries were drained but not dead. At some point of declining voltage the helm switch pad for aft bank of circuits lost coms. What I thought was a seriously dead bat was an electronic issue. Mechanic found, did the highly technical unplug and plug back in thing, thus regaining among other things, lift hatch power.

In conclusion: mistakes made, clues overlooked, anxiety raised, lessons learned, back to boating!

Good you've solved it.

Boatloads of owners at clubsearay.com, if you didn't know about that.

-Chris

 

[ronobrien]

You won't hurt the batts by running them down. The damage occurs if they are left in a discharged state for too long (weeks). During discharge lead sulphate forms on the plates but it is soft and is easily removed when recharging unless it is left to harden on the plates, then it is over for those batts. The other damage occurs if they are grossly over charged or charged at too high a rate. Get them recharged and (assuming they were good in the first place) they will be OK. Note: these are lead acid wet cells I am referring to.