Rocna Vulcan problems

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ranger58sb said:
Actually SET at 2.5 or 3:1? Or end up there, after post-setting scope adjustments?

We've only set our new Vulcan twice so far, so just followed the Rocna directions (set at 5:1). Would be good to know there's leeway there...

Our typical anchoring depth is 8-10' or so. :)

-Chris
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I've set mine plenty of times at 3:1 in fairly deep water. Once while setting in ~20 feet of water, the rode came tight at just over 2:1 scope when I paused to attach a snubber before continuing deployment. Surprisingly, it set and pulled the bow into the wind immediately.
 
Lived on the hook for close to a decade with an original a Rocna and now it’s a Vulcan for 2 years. Have been a crew with a Spade. I think all the next gen anchors require about the same technique. Dump at least water depth where you want the anchor to set. We usually dump around 10’ more. Then slowly drift back with wind or current trying to avoid much tension on the rode or use blips of idle if necessary as you let out more chain until you’re at the point you will add your snubbers. Then just wait. Depending upon the bottom, wind or currents it may grap immediately or take 5-7 minutes. But wait until the chain has straightened out showing tension and you know you’re not dragging. Then wait again. Go off and do your other chores . Then put on the snubbers and back down on idle to recheck your set. Then neutral and finish your chores. By now around 15 minutes have passed and you do a last check of your set at a bit above reverse idle.

These are remarkable anchors and with a bit of patience set beautifully on first try. Compared to earlier anchors have much lower risk of dragging. When switching from earlier designs had trouble as I used the “traditional”technique of progressively greater rpm to assure a good set. It was initially hard to change technique as that worked for decades. I still have occasion of a drag in very loose mud. Then have learned wait times need to be much longer. In real soup will do the above and make sure chain is fully laid out as a pile of chain may make you think you have a set when you really don’t . But before the last set check may wait up to a 1/2 hour. The nexgens need very little tension to dig. Too much tension they pull out. Once the flukes are buried they continue to dig with tension. My problem hasn’t been set since changing technique. But rather getting the Vulcan up if there’s strong current or wind as it digs so well. I like the Vulcan more than my prior Rocna as it doesn’t drag with a 180 shift.

Unless it force 4 or above 3-4:1 has worked but still prefer 5:1 if there’s room. Do use 5:1 for the set then pull in to 3-4:1 before putting snubbers on. Have used the Vulcan at ~3.5:1 in ~35’ in twenties gusts higher with no issues. I think bottom was packed sand. It was cold and rainy so wanted to be inside and had trouble seeing the chain markers from there.

My experience is a danforth or fortress will either set or skip right off. But it’s worthwhile to try again. If a plow or CQR skips try in a different place. But so far have had great success with Rocna and Vulcan except in soupy mud. Then have resorted to 7-10:1 and long waits before going up to 5:1.

Compared to the sailboat anchoring problem I’ve had is when in strong winds boat wants to go sideways. Bow blows off. I have to stop laying out chain repetitively and let her straighten out before letting out more. Thinking about figuring out a way to increase windage aft so she would drift straight back down like the sailboat did. Find it weird as she doesn’t hunt much at anchor.
 
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Generally when I do the power set, I give it about a full minute at idle reverse before increasing RPM. I stay on the bow to monitor the rode until we're in idle reverse and the boat is not moving at all, then walk back to the helm, confirm we're still not moving, increase to 900 RPM and wait another 30 seconds or so. Maybe 1000 RPM for 30 seconds if high winds are expected. Then back to idle for a few seconds, then neutral and shut down. That usually gets it dug in well enough that it's a challenge to retrieve even if there's no wind between set and retrieval.

Basically the difference between my technique and what Hippocampus described is that I'll bump an engine in gear for a couple of seconds to get the boat moving slightly if the wind is really light so I don't have to wait as long for the rode to stretch out. And once it's stretched, I gently bring up tension, then do the power set, but I don't wait and do a second power set.

I figure if the bottom is so fussy that I need a really drawn out, precise setting technique, then I don't trust it much, as I can't count on a re-set if there's a sudden enough wind shift for the anchor to break out and reset rather than just rotating in the bottom. By that same logic, I also do my setting at the final scope. If it needs more scope to set reliably in the current conditions and handle the power set, then I'd be risking a failure to re-set if I shorten up after setting.
 
ranger58sb said:
Actually SET at 2.5 or 3:1? Or end up there, after post-setting scope adjustments?

We've only set our new Vulcan twice so far, so just followed the Rocna directions (set at 5:1). Would be good to know there's leeway there...

Our typical anchoring depth is 8-10' or so. :)

-Chris
Click to expand...

C
I’ve no experience anchoring with this boat in 8 or so feet of water. Please note I mentioned 20-40 feet.
5:1 in 8 feet makes sense to me. Anchoring with a tidal swing of 12 to 20 feet is whole different ball game.
 
rslifkin said:
Generally when I do the power set, I give it about a full minute at idle reverse before increasing RPM. I stay on the bow to monitor the rode until we're in idle reverse and the boat is not moving at all, then walk back to the helm, confirm we're still not moving, increase to 900 RPM and wait another 30 seconds or so. Maybe 1000 RPM for 30 seconds if high winds are expected. Then back to idle for a few seconds, then neutral and shut down. That usually gets it dug in well enough that it's a challenge to retrieve even if there's no wind between set and retrieval. “

“Basically the difference between my technique and what Hippocampus described is that I'll bump an engine in gear for a couple of seconds to get the boat moving slightly if the wind is really light so I don't have to wait as long for the rode to stretch out. And once it's stretched, I gently bring up tension, then do the power set, but I don't wait and do a second power set.”

Agree that’s pretty much my day to day as well f I think it a good bottom. What I described is when I have a suspicion it’s a difficult bottom. Also in the past commonly ran into situations where you have a patch of clean sand in a field of high grass or there’s coral or ledge you don’t want to touch. Then I want a set right where I dropped so use the technique I described.

“I figure if the bottom is so fussy that I need a really drawn out, precise setting technique, then I don't trust it much, as I can't count on a re-set if there's a sudden enough wind shift for the anchor to break out and reset rather than just rotating in the bottom. By that same logic, I also do my setting at the final scope. If it needs more scope to set reliably in the current conditions and handle the power set, then I'd be risking a failure to re-set if I shorten up after setting.
Click to expand...
”

It’s here I think the Vulcan is a step up from any roll bar anchor including the Rocna. Have had great success with the Vulcan with tide or wind shifts. In recent travels the water has been opaque but the anchor watch has shown perfect circles so pretty confident the Vulcan has pivoted at the spot of the original drop without any drag.
 
sunchaser said:
When anchoring in 20-40 feet of water:

We routinely set our Vulcan at 2.5 to 3.0 to one based upon measured water depth to bottom roller and predicted high tide for initial set. If the winds are predicted above 10 knots we add about one scope increase per 5 knots.

We’ve never had a dragging issue with the 40kg anchor even after as many as half a dozen reversing currents. We like the 3B chain vs the alloy for its weight which IMHO is a key to success due to the catenary effect.

Backing down hard seems like prolific dock talk from arm chair cruisers. Avoiding a chain pile is accomplished by insuring a slight reverse momentum.

We just idle back once the snubber is hooked up and when the chain starts getting tight go to neutral and let the boat’s momentum do the rest.
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Bingo. In 45 years of cruising and over 50,000 miles, the only time I've powered the rode tight is after letting it soak a bit when in spots where dragging means on the beach. 98% of the time, boats end up being held by the chain lying on the seabed, creating a whole lot of drag.
 
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To the OP,
In my opinion, it is important to know how much rode (total) you have on board and the various lengths if it a "combo" rode (rope and chain). Also, having a means to know how much rode you have deployed (chain counter, markings, etc.), the water depth now, the change in depth to high tide (used for calculating scope) and the depth at low tide (you don't want to ground) :)
I have observed many boaters having trouble "setting" due to putting out inadequate "scope/rode" (amount of chain for the depth) and then trying to "force it to set" (sometimes at a little over 1:1) effectively dragging the anchor all over the bottom. No wonder the anchor does not set!!!
Over the years, we have anchored about 1000 times, and rarely (less than 5 times) failed to set first time with either our Vulcan or our previous anchor a Rocna. Where we anchor, we often have tidal swings of 10-20 feet. I almost always set with a scope of 5 to 1 or higher if possible, and then, if needed after a good set, adjusting scope (shortening) as needed due to room in the anchorage (did not go less than 3-1 after set). Even in high winds (40-50 knots) we only dragged once, and that was in light winds, due to a loose rock bottom (poor choice on my part), coupled with a strong reversing tidal current. It did set, but pulled out on the 3rd tide change. In my experience, these are good, effective anchors. Yes, there are others as well.
Technique: Drop anchor until on the bottom with a couple of feet to spare, and slowly back down while laying out the rode (either by wind/current or engine). No excess pressure on the anchor. Once the desired scope is out, we put on the bridle, and then gently used the engine (or wind) to straighten out the rode and put it under slight tension. Once the rode is taut, put the engine in reverse at idle for a couple of minutes, and if holding (use landmarks to ensure no movement), you can increase rpm to 800-900 for a minute or so to ensure you are set.
This technique has worked well for us for many years and many peaceful, confident nights at anchor. Granted, we did (usually) choose sea beds that are good holding most of the time. As others have stated, technique may need adjustment in some seabeds if better holding grounds are not available.
Good luck, and hope all these responses help.
 
Something that occurred to me is the shank weight of the Vulcan. It’s an “H” beam design. The typical H beam is for strength and lightness but the shank on the Vulcan seems to have extra thickness toward the edges. The anchor itself is very similar to the Manson Boss. I was really impressed w the Boss but when I picked one up and handled it I immediately thought of it as flimsy. The Vulcan is anything but flimsy. The Vulcan had a heavy shank and also ballast in the fluke. Heavy.

This type of anchor typically rolls over on it’s side to set. In this position the anchor rests on three points. The toe, the side skid (on either edge of the back of the fluke) and on the center of the shank.

Anchors w a light shank may have very different balance at this stage of setting. A downward force on the middle of the shank could perhaps keep the toe mostly above the sea floor. And an extra heavy chain would seemingly promote the fwd end of the shank down and such geometry and physics may cause poor setting w the Vulcan anchor. But the rode rising should cause the shank to rise and rotate the toe into the sea floor. So one could have better short scope setting. Should have. Long scope setting may have the anchor shank held down making a mess of everything. As in dragging forever ….

One could put a Vulcan on a flat surface and see how much weight it on the toe. Then do it w heavy chain attached to the shank end.

This is a complicated scenario. Thoughts?
 
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"One could put a Vulcan on a flat surface and see how much weight it on the toe. Then do it w heavy chain attached to the shank end.

This is a complicated scenario. Thoughts?"

Steve at Panope does a tip weight to total weight calculation for all anchors. On the theory the higher the tip weight the better the initial set. Vulcans are not the highest but are on the middle to high side.

If the top of the shank is down at rest the tip weight ratio won't change.
 
firehoser75 said:
Technique: Drop anchor until on the bottom with a couple of feet to spare, and slowly back down while laying out the rode (either by wind/current or engine). No excess pressure on the anchor. Once the desired scope is out, we put on the bridle, and then gently used the engine (or wind) to straighten out the rode and put it under slight tension. Once the rode is taut, put the engine in reverse at idle for a couple of minutes, and if holding (use landmarks to ensure no movement), you can increase rpm to 800-900 for a minute or so to ensure you are set.
This technique has worked well for us for many years and many peaceful, confident nights at anchor. Granted, we did (usually) choose sea beds that are good holding most of the time. As others have stated, technique may need adjustment in some seabeds if better holding grounds are not available.
Good luck, and hope all these responses help.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I set most any style of anchor.
 
Hi,
I have a 2004 Mainship390 at Pikes Bay and cruise the Apostles using a Rocna and 5/16 HT chain. I have had almost no problems with the Rocna in the Apostles or on the Loop. I echo some other responders to play out the rode while moving slowly back until you have at least 2/3 the required rode out. Be careful not to pile the chain on the anchor. Then back down gently to straighten the chain and the anchor. Back down with medium revs after you have all the rode out minimum 5*(Depth+6’ roller to water). Bring the power up slowly and don’t jerk the anchor. I would not change to a Danforth or Fortress. My 20+ year experience in the Apostles that the wind will drift around after dark and then may change quite a bit in direction or strength. These are conditions fluke type anchors don’t do well in. The Vulcan or my Delta will pivot in sand and reset most of the time. This procedure has worked well for me but you must allow for the conditions and keep aware of weather changes.
 
This setting issue is a common problem with the original Spade and Vulcan anchors that I have traced down to a scope issue on setting. Dont worry it is solvable. There is definitely a technique to adapt to: These type of anchors really need 5 to 1 or 7 to 1 let out, set as you normally would by backing down slow at first and then hard when it catches and then if you have more scope out than you want bring some in after a solid setting. If you deploy with a short scope the weight on the tip doesn't have the angle it needs to dig in and pull the spade into the sand. I confirmed this by snorkeling to watch. (The "keel" is the weight and you want it there) Note, I have never had this problem with the standard Rocna, only the Vulcan and the Spade. If you only have a short chain lead and the rest is rode you will want at least a 5 to 1 *always* and 7 to 1 is better. Don't forget to add in the anchor roller height off the water in your depth calculations to get the right ratio as I think the roller on the Mainship 390 is pretty high off the water. Then take the time to work on your technique. On any given day, pack a lunch and go out and try anchoring several times and try different places, even if you only move a half a mile each time. It should come to you, but like anything else practice is best. Not once or twice, but a couple of dozen times. If eventually you aren't able to get comfortable with the Vulcan, whatever you do don't go for the Plow (or CQR). All they do is plow the sand out of the way instead of digging in, esp on a boat like yours with a lot of windage. (Ask me how I know) The regular Rocna or the Mantus would do you better if you can get then to fit on the bow roller with the hoop. Otherwise, the Sarca Xcel. I don't want to make this an anchor debate (fist-fight) :), these are ALL excellent anchors, and at the same time some work better for certain people and boats and situations than others. That is why I try and own and use quite a few varieties to the point where my family laughs about it right up until we are anchored on the boat in a big blow. I also anchor in new places and very windy conditions frequently. Another important question is what is your back up anchor? Mine is a 100lb. Luke. It is almost too heavy for me to assemble, but I know I have a solid backup in a blow.



Lastly, don't go by what other people have on the bow there. Most never use them for more than a lunch stop. I have walked down the docks there in Bayfield (and almost anywhere) and I see 40 ft boats with puny 15-20lb. Danforths. I anchored a bunch in the Apostles with a BIG Danforth and held fine, but if the wind changes in a blow, often tough to reset in that packed sand, same with a plow. People don't tend to upgrade anchors over time. I see $3m Hinckleys out here on Cape Cod now with diminutive 35 lb. Stainless CQRs. only good for lunch stops at best.


Oversize, long rode, practice sleep well. My recipe. Have a great season!
 
O
Gee, my 40kg Vulcan in 25-40’ low tide waters has done just fine setting at 3:1 scope and no serious backdown above idle. It replaced a 30kg Bruce. If winds go above 10-15 we’ll start adding scope

Where do you predominately anchor, what size anchor and what boat?
 
sunchaser said:
O
Gee, my 40kg Vulcan in 25-40’ low tide waters has done just fine setting at 3:1 scope and no serious backdown above idle. It replaced a 30kg Bruce. If winds go above 10-15 we’ll start adding scope

Where do you predominately anchor, what size anchor and what boat?
Click to expand...

I agree, the Vulcan sets fine at 3:1 as long as you don't yank on it too hard for the initial set. In a gentle set the angle of pull is lower when the anchor first starts to dig in due to chain catenary (particularly in deeper water). By the time you pull hard enough to straighten out the chain most of the way, it's dug in enough that it'll continue to dig even with the higher angle of pull.
 
Before you try making things complicated - such as wait times - just let out 5:1 scope (including the bow roller height) before pulling. If the harbor is too deep or crowded for 5:1, I go somewhere else.

Except in soupy mud, extremely deep kelp, or smooth rock/stone it should set immediately after gently taking the slack out of the rode (usually by drifting back) then applying about 1500 rpm reverse engine. The rode will rise out of the water and go bar tight.

If it doesn’t go bar tight or “jumps” , I pull it in and move to another spot with better bottom conditions (the one exception is soupy mud where gentle pulls followed by waiting may help - but in soupy mud I get out the Fortress 2nd anchor which does great in soupy mud)
 
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We always have a minimum of 5:1 of scope out. We sleep will in wind and current conditions... even when the tide reciprocates in the middle of the night in a river or ICW. Size does matter.

Capt Ray said:
I have a Vulcan 25 (55#) on our Mainship 390, and we anchor out a LOT. Very happy with it. (200 ft of 3/8" chain means we are virtually always all-chain rode + snubber)

Sorry to hear yours is not working out.

Ray

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/18/shelly-inspects-her-new-anchor/

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/19/new-ground-tackle-system-is-deployed/

Snubber notes:

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/21/splicing-8-plait/
Click to expand...
 
Danforth would be my first choice for anchoring in Sand!
 
I don’t much care for the Rocna or the company.
Several years ago I was looking at the Vulcan to buy for myself. Once I got a Super Sarca and their heavier anchor (Excel) I lost anchor buying thoughts.

The Rocna put in a dismal performance on a large anchor testing (almost all anchors at the time were included) …. at short scope .. 3-1. When the Rocna guy was asked about it he told them they always tell their customers to set at 5-1 and shorten up.
I thought that was a non-answer … that they were just admitting that the Rocna dos’nt do 3-1 scope. But if one set at 5-1 and shortened up ….. the Rocna may have performed at 3-1. But all or most of the other anchors set at 3-1.

But of importance here IMO is the statement “set at 5-1 and shorten up” says volumes about anchoring. The smartest thing I’ve ever heard about anchoring. It took years for Rocna users to admit it or maybe the Rocna was equipped w special luck.
But I was very impressed w the Vulcan. However it was just an eye-ball evaluation. But I’m glad I had a chance to use the Australian ARA anchors. Sold my boat not long after.
 
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We always have a minimum of 5:1 of scope out. We sleep will in wind and current conditions... even when the tide reciprocates in the middle of the night in a river or ICW. Size does matter.

Capt Ray said:
I have a Vulcan 25 (55#) on our Mainship 390, and we anchor out a LOT. Very happy with it. (200 ft of 3/8" chain means we are virtually always all-chain rode + snubber)

Sorry to hear yours is not working out.

Ray

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/18/shelly-inspects-her-new-anchor/

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/19/new-ground-tackle-system-is-deployed/

Snubber notes:

https://shellerina.com/2020/09/21/splicing-8-plait/
Click to expand...
 
Capt Ray,
In SE Alaska you’d be spending most of your nights in harbors tied to a float. Many many anchorages are too small for 5-1 anchoring. Meaning it would be more dangerous to anchor at 5-1 in many small anchorages. I anchored at the head of Ire Inlet (BC) at 5-1. I knew where the big rock was but still hit it swinging in the night. Had to shorten my scope on the fore-deck in my shorts.
So the night passed w/o further interruptions.

5-1 anchoring is perfect if you have room. But there are many places where 5-1 is not a safe option. But fortunately there is usually a good mud/sand bottom to anchor in up north.

I see you’re in Florida. Do you anchor in white sand?
 
RolfBrown said:
Hi,
I have a 2004 Mainship390 at Pikes Bay and cruise the Apostles using a Rocna and 5/16 HT chain. I have had almost no problems with the Rocna in the Apostles or on the Loop. I echo some other responders to play out the rode while moving slowly back until you have at least 2/3 the required rode out. Be careful not to pile the chain on the anchor. Then back down gently to straighten the chain and the anchor. Back down with medium revs after you have all the rode out minimum 5*(Depth+6’ roller to water). Bring the power up slowly and don’t jerk the anchor. I would not change to a Danforth or Fortress. My 20+ year experience in the Apostles that the wind will drift around after dark and then may change quite a bit in direction or strength. These are conditions fluke type anchors don’t do well in. The Vulcan or my Delta will pivot in sand and reset most of the time. This procedure has worked well for me but you must allow for the conditions and keep aware of weather changes.
Click to expand...

RolfBrown, welcome to the forum, from your neighbors on the 200 dock. Glad to see some more folks representing Lake Superior here! Love your boat BTW.

BD
 
Nomad Willy said:
Capt Ray,
In SE Alaska you’d be spending most of your nights in harbors tied to a float. Many many anchorages are too small for 5-1 anchoring. Meaning it would be more dangerous to anchor at 5-1 in many small anchorages. I anchored at the head of Ire Inlet (BC) at 5-1. I knew where the big rock was but still hit it swinging in the night. Had to shorten my scope on the fore-deck in my shorts.
So the night passed w/o further interruptions.

5-1 anchoring is perfect if you have room. But there are many places where 5-1 is not a safe option. But fortunately there is usually a good mud/sand bottom to anchor in up north.

I see you’re in Florida. Do you anchor in white sand?[/QUOT

Yes...love sand... no mud to clean off!
The only way I would trust less than 5:1 scope is to have a 30# or 50# anchor weight lowered on my chain to ensure the "angle of attack" of the anchor on the bottom was what it needs to be to be effective. See attached file for a picture of a S/S product for this. Less elegant cast iron weights are cheaper.

A danforth anchor needs this same low angle of attack to work. We carry 3 anchors, and one is a Fortress Danforth. It works well in ideal conditions (no weeds etc.). It is not heavy enough to set in weeds.

5:1 has long been pretty darn standard in all the literature about anchoring out... more when conditions require... OR double up by putting out a second anchor in a "V" configuration (reducing swing at same ratio). A second anchor linearly attached to the first also works in a bad blow (but is rare because it requires more forethought.)
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I had a plow type on mine and it usually worked well. I went to a location where the bottom was sand and after many attempts and even diving on the anchor, I wound up borrowing a small Danforth from a neighboring boat and it held fine for 3 days. Obviously not all anchors, no matter how good they are in one bottom, work on all bottoms.
 
ronobrien said:
I had a plow type on mine and it usually worked well. I went to a location where the bottom was sand and after many attempts and even diving on the anchor, I wound up borrowing a small Danforth from a neighboring boat and it held fine for 3 days. Obviously not all anchors, no matter how good they are in one bottom, work on all bottoms.
Click to expand...


Absolutely true, although the modern designs work at least reasonably well in a wider range of bottoms than most older designs. So a generously sized modern design plus a Danforth / Fortress for really soft mud will cover 99% of anchoring scenarios.
 
Rocna anchoring

I have the original Rocna and have only had 1 time where there was an issue and it was probably me being new at anchoring in weeds.

The Vulcan has that bend in the shank and that could be your problem but it also could be your technique which was addressed by others.

I know that there are a number of anchors and a number of proponents but if an anchor can hold on the Mississippi in a 6mph current then it is the anchor that will stay on my bow.

I do carry a 13# Fortress that I use as a stern anchor when needed, but my Rocna is my bow anchor and to me they don't get any better.

Good luck.
 
Nomad Willy said:
When the Rocna guy was asked about it he told them they always tell their customers to set at 5-1 and shorten up.
I thought that was a non-answer … that they were just admitting that the Rocna dos’nt do 3-1 scope. But if one set at 5-1 and shortened up ….. the Rocna may have performed at 3-1. But all or most of the other anchors set at 3-1.
Click to expand...


IIRC, Fortress and SuperMAC both say to set at 5:1. As does Vulcan, another Rocna product. I think Delta says 5:1. ??

Haven't paid strict attention to others, but 5:1 has always seemed common, to me.

-Chris
 
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