Rocna Vulcan problems

[mncruiser]

Thanks for all the great suggestions. Have not had a chance to anchor out yet but will report back!

 

[Yachtman]

We have a Manson Anchors Supreme and we’re ready for a new one. Won’t even be shopping brands. Check it out. It has two ways for attachment and works fabulous. Like I said, not changing.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ranger58sb wrote;
“ IIRC, Fortress and SuperMAC both say to set at 5:1. As does Vulcan, another Rocna product. I think Delta says 5:1. ??

Haven't paid strict attention to others, but 5:1 has always seemed common, to me.

-Chris


You say what should be experts say anchor at 5-1. I say most of the time anchoring in SE Alaska and BC I use 3-1. And if it blows 50 knots .. go to 5-1. I’ve never had an anchor drag at any scope I’ve anchored at. Plety of draging while setting tho.
It’s almost like he says she says…..
But it’s not.
All anchors are different. Even all Claws. All Claws seem to have a different throat angle. But there’s more to it than just an angle. A long shank anchor’s attitude at various scopes will be less sensitive to change in performance as you change rode length. And there are advantages to short shanks. That’s just one small detail in anchor design.
And there are many variables.

And I haven’t mentioned the seafloor .. the biggest variable of all.

We don’t have “good luck” or bad. It’s just a large combination of many variables.

And another thing about 3-1. You don’t know anything about 3-1 unless you try it several or more times. And you won’t as you say you always use 5-1.
If you use “common” methods you’ll get common results.

 

[BruceK]

Eric, unreliable memory says Steve/SV. Panope tested short scope by reducing scope until an anchor lost grip. Bias reminds me Sarca tested to very short scope before failing. Again from memory ,Sarca recommends lots of scope, more than 5:1 I think, but I can attest they hold very well at 3:1. Even less, according to Steve.

 

[ranger58sb]

Ranger58sb wrote;
“ IIRC, Fortress and SuperMAC both say to set at 5:1. As does Vulcan, another Rocna product. I think Delta says 5:1. ??

Haven't paid strict attention to others, but 5:1 has always seemed common, to me.

-Chris


You say what should be experts say anchor at 5-1. I say most of the time anchoring in SE Alaska and BC I use 3-1. And if it blows 50 knots .. go to 5-1. I’ve never had an anchor drag at any scope I’ve anchored at. Plety of draging while setting tho.
It’s almost like he says she says…..

And another thing about 3-1. You don’t know anything about 3-1 unless you try it several or more times. And you won’t as you say you always use 5-1.
If you use “common” methods you’ll get common results.

No real argument from me. And I'm not defending any specific scope.

I only mentioned it because if one of the "He's" in that game is the manufacturer, and I don't have any prior knowledge myself, I reckon I might be grateful for the maker's clue.

If that clue happens to be 5:1, that's OK with me. Or 3:1, or 37:1, I don't care.

-Chris

 

[Mambo42]

You say what should be experts say anchor at 5-1. I say most of the time anchoring in SE Alaska and BC I use 3-1. And if it blows 50 knots .. go to 5-1. I’ve never had an anchor drag at any scope I’ve anchored at. Plety of draging while setting tho.

As some may know we are currently on our Defever 49 in the Aegean Sea (Greece) and that area is known for the Meltemi winds. Normally speaking we would never come here, since Greece does not have an accurate weather forecast, but we have to get to Turkey to install the stabilizers. The Greek weather forecast is basically identical as it was 3000 years ago, in other words, your guess is as good as mine. Sites like Windy, Predict wind etc use the local information to generate nice looking animations, but they have nothing to do with reality.

This Saturday 2 bft was predicted and all of a sudden we found ourselves in 51 kts wind steady. Managed to find an anchorage, which offers a bit of protection, but while I am writing this we still have 40 kts steady 30 degrees off the port bow.
Luckily I have a lot of chain and we threw out 90 mtrs of chain in 4 meter deep water, together with our 50 kg Sarca Excel. We set it well and it holds perfect, also installed a double snubber and two land lines to hold us in place and to keep us with the bow in the waves.

This morning I wanted to know how the anchor had performed through the night. I was pretty amazed to see the first 25 meters of chain (measured from the water line) solid off the bottom of the sea. The next 20 meters was actually still moving and only after that the chain did not move at all. So a scope of 5 : 1 would not have made it. 4 + 3 = 7 x 5 = 35 meters chain would have been an advised scope. The anchor would most certainly been pulled out.

I know I overdid it with more than 12 : 1 scope, but in storms like this I am not taking any chances. 15 meters behind my boat I have the shore which is basically rocks, so I have no room to drag my anchor.
The only problem I have is .................charter boats. The boats that are rented for a week by people who mostly cannot anchor or even cannot sail. They come into the anchorage, don't check where the anchors are, they simply drop their anchor, put out the minimum amount of chain and leave the boat by itself. They are off to shore.
Two hours ago a 40' catamaran showed up, dropped their anchor without asking where my anchor is (missed us by 2 meters) and let out the bare minimum. Now he is lying right in front of my bow. If he starts to drag I have a catamaran on my bow, not looking forward to that and this night the winds are expected to increase to 6 bft (according to the forecast), but we now have the experience that it usually means 1 or 2 bft extra. Wind force 8 with a catamaran on your bow is not a good idea. Going to be a long night again.

This catamaran ahead of us is the latest in a long line of 'idiots on the water', being the charter crews. Last week I had my anchor pulled out 3 times on one day and twice I found a boat hanging on my anchor chain. The skippers completely clueless, even became angry when I called them morons.
Cruising in Europe can be fun, but charter season is horrible and the Meltemi winds make this part of Greece basically a nightmare. We have 14 hours of sailing, in 3 legs, to get to our destination, but it could take over 1 month before we will be able to continue. Whatever happens, we are not leaving this anchorage with wind force 5 or more.

Anyways, long story short. The 5 : 1 scope usually works, but be aware that in strong winds you better throw out as much as you can, it may save you, your boat and whoever is on it. There is no need to risk anything when it is not necessary. But indeed, you need to know how to set an anchor properly and .............having oversized equipment is also not a bad thing. We have a 50 kg Sarca Excel and 140 mtrs of 13 mm chain. According to the books that is too much for our Defever, but we are very happy we have it on board.

 

[SteveK]

You say what should be experts say anchor at 5-1. I say most of the time anchoring in SE Alaska and BC I use 3-1. And if it blows 50 knots .. go to 5-1. I’ve never had an anchor drag at any scope I’ve anchored at. Plenty of draging while setting tho.

Corrected for you. Plenty of ploughing the seabed while setting tho.

 

[Hippocampus]

As some may know we are currently on our Defever 49 in the Aegean Sea (Greece) and that area is known for the Meltemi winds. Normally speaking we would never come here, since Greece does not have an accurate weather forecast, but we have to get to Turkey to install the stabilizers. The Greek weather forecast is basically identical as it was 3000 years ago, in other words, your guess is as good as mine. Sites like Windy, Predict wind etc use the local information to generate nice looking animations, but they have nothing to do with reality.

This Saturday 2 bft was predicted and all of a sudden we found ourselves in 51 kts wind steady. Managed to find an anchorage, which offers a bit of protection, but while I am writing this we still have 40 kts steady 30 degrees off the port bow.
Luckily I have a lot of chain and we threw out 90 mtrs of chain in 4 meter deep water, together with our 50 kg Sarca Excel. We set it well and it holds perfect, also installed a double snubber and two land lines to hold us in place and to keep us with the bow in the waves.

This morning I wanted to know how the anchor had performed through the night. I was pretty amazed to see the first 25 meters of chain (measured from the water line) solid off the bottom of the sea. The next 20 meters was actually still moving and only after that the chain did not move at all. So a scope of 5 : 1 would not have made it. 4 + 3 = 7 x 5 = 35 meters chain would have been an advised scope. The anchor would most certainly been pulled out.

I know I overdid it with more than 12 : 1 scope, but in storms like this I am not taking any chances. 15 meters behind my boat I have the shore which is basically rocks, so I have no room to drag my anchor.
The only problem I have is .................charter boats. The boats that are rented for a week by people who mostly cannot anchor or even cannot sail. They come into the anchorage, don't check where the anchors are, they simply drop their anchor, put out the minimum amount of chain and leave the boat by itself. They are off to shore.
Two hours ago a 40' catamaran showed up, dropped their anchor without asking where my anchor is (missed us by 2 meters) and let out the bare minimum. Now he is lying right in front of my bow. If he starts to drag I have a catamaran on my bow, not looking forward to that and this night the winds are expected to increase to 6 bft (according to the forecast), but we now have the experience that it usually means 1 or 2 bft extra. Wind force 8 with a catamaran on your bow is not a good idea. Going to be a long night again.

This catamaran ahead of us is the latest in a long line of 'idiots on the water', being the charter crews. Last week I had my anchor pulled out 3 times on one day and twice I found a boat hanging on my anchor chain. The skippers completely clueless, even became angry when I called them morons.
Cruising in Europe can be fun, but charter season is horrible and the Meltemi winds make this part of Greece basically a nightmare. We have 14 hours of sailing, in 3 legs, to get to our destination, but it could take over 1 month before we will be able to continue. Whatever happens, we are not leaving this anchorage with wind force 5 or more.

Anyways, long story short. The 5 : 1 scope usually works, but be aware that in strong winds you better throw out as much as you can, it may save you, your boat and whoever is on it. There is no need to risk anything when it is not necessary. But indeed, you need to know how to set an anchor properly and .............having oversized equipment is also not a bad thing. We have a 50 kg Sarca Excel and 140 mtrs of 13 mm chain. According to the books that is too much for our Defever, but we are very happy we have it on board.

Excellent post and fully congruent to my experience in the leewards Caribbean as well as US east coast. Has gotten to the point when in Block Island place fenders to protect the forward half of the boat. They’ve been instrumental in preventing damage more than once. Our routine is to take a series of pictures on the cellphone documenting the anchoring of the boats who anchor around us. When suspect will take a dinghy ride over and politely explain deficiencies. If not well received will take further pictures explaining to captain they are for the insurance claim to come.
Gotten to the point I have such fear of short term charter boats we avoid cruising anywhere they are present. Similarly avoid places where the weekend warriors go. If in such places that’s one of the reasons to take a slip unfortunately.
When I bought my boat it had a Delta of just barely the size required by the charts. First purchase was a Vulcan. It’s a great anchor and has preformed even better than the Rocna we had on the prior boat.
Yes on occasion we anchor at 3:1 but our go to is 5:1 unless short scope is necessary. If we’re going to stay in one place for awhile then longer than 5:1. I believe the catenary effect of long scope is as important as angle in improving function. It’s one of the reasons we use all chain. Yes we use two snubbers but their effect only occurs after a delay to a shock load in a gust. That long length of chain’s catenary effect is immediate. Also chain provides resistance to sudden vearing. Put on a mask and watch the difference between rope and chain.
Have learned it’s no big deal to have a slightly long dinghy ride in. So will try anchor out away from the crowd and ideally upwind from them if possible.

 

[Shrew]

I have the exact same boat and anchor as the OP

Mainship 350
Rocna Vulcan 20 (44LB)
130ft 5/16 G30 chain
150 5/8" 3strand line.

What I didn't catch in the write-up is how scope is calculated. When we say "Anchoring in 20 feet".

Are we using the transducer depth or the true water depth?

Are we adding the extra 5 feet to the bow pulpit?

20 feet from transducer @ 5:1 = 100 feet

Adding transducer depth (+2.5 ft) and height to bow pulpit (+5 ft)

27.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 137.5 feet.

What scope when you attempt to set the anchor? We had a lot of trouble when my wife first started. She would wait until the anchor hit the bottom, then would pay out some, then run the line around the cleat in an attempt to set it (at around 2:1). When I realized what she was doing we agreed to lay out all of the scope first, then set it.

I say this because we've had a Rocna (original), Manson Supreme, and a Rocna Vulcan and never had any issues setting the anchor.

I would look at and consider installing a Mantus swivel. I sounds like something is resisting the anchors ability to roll.

 

[SteveK]

27.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 137.5 feet.

did you mean 7.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 107.5

Do you allow for high tide if setting at low tide.

 

[Moonfish]

Then have the same faith that we have that the light goes out in the fridge when we shut the door.

Oh yes, that line is appropriate for so many situations in life!

 

[Moonfish]

This setting issue is a common problem with the original Spade and Vulcan anchors that I have traced down to a scope issue on setting. Dont worry it is solvable. There is definitely a technique to adapt to: These type of anchors really need 5 to 1 or 7 to 1 let out, set as you normally would by backing down slow at first and then hard when it catches and then if you have more scope out than you want bring some in after a solid setting. If you deploy with a short scope the weight on the tip doesn't have the angle it needs to dig in and pull the spade into the sand. I confirmed this by snorkeling to watch. (The "keel" is the weight and you want it there) Note, I have never had this problem with the standard Rocna, only the Vulcan and the Spade. If you only have a short chain lead and the rest is rode you will want at least a 5 to 1 *always* and 7 to 1 is better. Don't forget to add in the anchor roller height off the water in your depth calculations to get the right ratio as I think the roller on the Mainship 390 is pretty high off the water. Then take the time to work on your technique. On any given day, pack a lunch and go out and try anchoring several times and try different places, even if you only move a half a mile each time. It should come to you, but like anything else practice is best. Not once or twice, but a couple of dozen times. If eventually you aren't able to get comfortable with the Vulcan, whatever you do don't go for the Plow (or CQR). All they do is plow the sand out of the way instead of digging in, esp on a boat like yours with a lot of windage. (Ask me how I know) The regular Rocna or the Mantus would do you better if you can get then to fit on the bow roller with the hoop. Otherwise, the Sarca Xcel. I don't want to make this an anchor debate (fist-fight) , these are ALL excellent anchors, and at the same time some work better for certain people and boats and situations than others. That is why I try and own and use quite a few varieties to the point where my family laughs about it right up until we are anchored on the boat in a big blow. I also anchor in new places and very windy conditions frequently. Another important question is what is your back up anchor? Mine is a 100lb. Luke. It is almost too heavy for me to assemble, but I know I have a solid backup in a blow.



Lastly, don't go by what other people have on the bow there. Most never use them for more than a lunch stop. I have walked down the docks there in Bayfield (and almost anywhere) and I see 40 ft boats with puny 15-20lb. Danforths. I anchored a bunch in the Apostles with a BIG Danforth and held fine, but if the wind changes in a blow, often tough to reset in that packed sand, same with a plow. People don't tend to upgrade anchors over time. I see $3m Hinckleys out here on Cape Cod now with diminutive 35 lb. Stainless CQRs. only good for lunch stops at best.


Oversize, long rode, practice sleep well. My recipe. Have a great season!

Great post! Personal experience, backed up by snorkeling down to visually inspect the situation. Thanks!

 

[Mambo42]

I have the exact same boat and anchor as the OP

Mainship 350
Rocna Vulcan 20 (44LB)
130ft 5/16 G30 chain
150 5/8" 3strand line.

What I didn't catch in the write-up is how scope is calculated. When we say "Anchoring in 20 feet".

Are we using the transducer depth or the true water depth?

Are we adding the extra 5 feet to the bow pulpit?

20 feet from transducer @ 5:1 = 100 feet

Adding transducer depth (+2.5 ft) and height to bow pulpit (+5 ft)

27.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 137.5 feet.

What scope when you attempt to set the anchor? We had a lot of trouble when my wife first started. She would wait until the anchor hit the bottom, then would pay out some, then run the line around the cleat in an attempt to set it (at around 2:1). When I realized what she was doing we agreed to lay out all of the scope first, then set it.

I say this because we've had a Rocna (original), Manson Supreme, and a Rocna Vulcan and never had any issues setting the anchor.

I would look at and consider installing a Mantus swivel. I sounds like something is resisting the anchors ability to roll.

What many people forget is that the 5 : 1 scope only applies in good weather and calm seas.
If you anchor in an area where there are waves you have to add the wave height to your anchor depth as well. Meaning, waves of 1 meter high, in 4 meter deep water and water to bow is 3 meters, you now need 4 + 1 + 3 is 8 meters. And then you have the movement of the bow itself. Every time the bow goes up it pulls on the anchor chain and thus the anchor.
But then again, also the 5 : 1 scope is not sacred. There is an actual mathematical calculation to how much chain and anchor you need, but this has been simplified to a scope of 5 : 1. Now that has become the way to go, but reality is different.

Windforce, surface area of your boat, current, all determine how much chain you need to put out.
I have the calculation here, but will write it in a separate topic one of these days. It is obviously not my calculation, but after I had read it and let it sink in it definitely made a hell of a lot of sense.
More worrying however is the effect of angle of the anchor shank to the bottom when it comes to holding power.
As little as 5 degrees of lift on the shank (and thus the anchor blade) will cost you 15 % in holding capacity. At 20 degrees angle you have lost 50 % of the holding capacity and at 25 degrees the anchor won't hold anymore, it has lost all holding capacity, it will start to drag. To many of us this is unknown, at least to me it was.

In the end it comes down to the force your boat is capable of putting on the anchor chain + anchor and the force the chain + anchor are able to withstand. If the boat can induce more force than the anchor plus chain can handle................the anchor is not going to hold. And the only way to counteract that is to make sure your anchor and chain can handle more force than the wind + current can put on your boat. If that turns out to be 10 : 1, then that is it. If it turns out to be 20 :1 then you also have to accept it. It is as simple as that.

 

[Shrew]

Are we using the transducer depth or the true water depth?

Are we adding the extra 5 feet to the bow pulpit?

20 feet from transducer @ 5:1 = 100 feet

Adding transducer depth (+2.5 ft) and height to bow pulpit (+5 ft)

27.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 137.5 feet.

What scope when you attempt to set the anchor? We had a lot of trouble when my wife first started. She would wait until the anchor hit the bottom, then would pay out some, then run the line around the cleat in an attempt to set it (at around 2:1). When I realized what she was doing we agreed to lay out all of the scope first, then set it.

I say this because we've had a Rocna (original), Manson Supreme, and a Rocna Vulcan and never had any issues setting the anchor.

I would look at and consider installing a Mantus swivel. I sounds like something is resisting the anchors ability to roll.

did you mean 7.5 feet from pulpit @ 5:1 = 107.5

20' from bottom to transducer

2.5' from transducer to waterline

5' from waterline to bow pulpit.

((20 + 2.5) +5) = 27.5

27.5 x 5 = 137.5 @5:1

Do you allow for high tide if setting at low tide.

I adjust for the depth at high tide in my calculation. Here, I'm assuming the depth getting plugged into the ratio equation is for water depth at high tide.

 

[SteveK]

Thanks Shrew, on re reading it was the 20 foot @ 5:1 = 100 then adding 2.5 + 5 gave me a brain fart.
The 7.5 @ 5:1 = 37.5 + 100 = 137.5
I know how to arrive at my desired scope, the original math layout threw me.

20 + 2.5 + 5 = 27.5 @ 5:1 = 137.5

 

[sunchaser]

Don’t forget tidal range which in AK can add in 20’

 

[Hippocampus]

In some places (particularly in the SE US ) tide is driven by wind. You maybe out of the wind in protected channel but a nearby bay maybe driving a lot of water into that channel. Similarly waves add momentary depth but also shock loads. Hunting increases momentary side loading and shock loading all of which can work an anchor up.
Most charting/nav programs will give you a tide chart with a click. Worthwhile to check for discrepancies.

Agree with Mambo. Much wisdom in his post. More to it than meets the eye. It’s not just using maximum depth from a tide chart and multiplying by 5 then adding a fudge factor. Then add more based on predicted weather.

So what to do? My attitude is there’s no major downside to letting out more. The usual limitation is available space either do to local geography or nearby boats. If I’m not comfortable just go somewhere else. Even if it means anchoring in the dark. Believe like many here before leaving pick a few likely good places to anchor and decide when we get there.

Although we do make a circle looking at depths around the spot we want to drop wife gave me a present I’ve found helpful. A handheld depth meter. You can launch the dinghy and investigate an area before bringing in the mother ship. Better yet find local large rocks or major debris that maybe inside your possible swing.

Also think we are all risk aversive. Ratio depends upon the factors Mambo mentioned but also the consequences of dragging. Think most of us think differently if we’re anchoring in the middle of a wide open bay with mud shores than at the edge of a drop off with a solid rock ledge just past your predicted swing circle. Of course it’s a joke. Where you have the swing dragging isn’t the end of the world. Where you don’t it is. Oh well….

 

[SailorGreg]

In some places (particularly in the SE US ) tide is driven by wind. You maybe out of the wind in protected channel but a nearby bay maybe driving a lot of water into that channel. Similarly waves add momentary depth but also shock loads. Hunting increases momentary side loading and shock loading all of which can work an anchor up.
Most charting/nav programs will give you a tide chart with a click. Worthwhile to check for discrepancies.

Agree with Mambo. Much wisdom in his post. More to it than meets the eye. It’s not just using maximum depth from a tide chart and multiplying by 5 then adding a fudge factor. Then add more based on predicted weather.

So what to do? My attitude is there’s no major downside to letting out more. The usual limitation is available space either do to local geography or nearby boats. If I’m not comfortable just go somewhere else. Even if it means anchoring in the dark. Believe like many here before leaving pick a few likely good places to anchor and decide when we get there.

Although we do make a circle looking at depths around the spot we want to drop wife gave me a present I’ve found helpful. A handheld depth meter. You can launch the dinghy and investigate an area before bringing in the mother ship. Better yet find local large rocks or major debris that maybe inside your possible swing.

Also think we are all risk aversive. Ratio depends upon the factors Mambo mentioned but also the consequences of dragging. Think most of us think differently if we’re anchoring in the middle of a wide open bay with mud shores than at the edge of a drop off with a solid rock ledge just past your predicted swing circle. Of course it’s a joke. Where you have the swing dragging isn’t the end of the world. Where you don’t it is. Oh well….

I like our Vulcan. This is no more than an anecdotal sea story, but somewhat of a testament to the Vulcan.
We were anchored in the Bight of Acklins. 10’ deep for miles behind us and no boats anywhere. I set the anchor at 7:1 and dove on it. Looked about half buried so took that as good enough.
That night the winds climbed to 35 knots or so and stayed that way for two days. After it was over I dove the anchor again and took the picture below. We didn’t drag so I figure the current washed away any sand that had been plowed up in front of the anchor when I dove on it initially. Best I can tell we were hanging on the tip only. Vulcan 55 on a 55’ trawler.

 

[diver dave]

We use our vulcan in bahamas also. I call it the grapnel mode, where it finds tiny holes and ridges to hang on.

 

[RickyD]

I like our Vulcan. This is no more than an anecdotal sea story, but somewhat of a testament to the Vulcan.
We were anchored in the Bight of Acklins. 10’ deep for miles behind us and no boats anywhere. I set the anchor at 7:1 and dove on it. Looked about half buried so took that as good enough.
That night the winds climbed to 35 knots or so and stayed that way for two days. After it was over I dove the anchor again and took the picture below. We didn’t drag so I figure the current washed away any sand that had been plowed up in front of the anchor when I dove on it initially. Best I can tell we were hanging on the tip only. Vulcan 55 on a 55’ trawler.
View attachment 140091

Looks like you may have spun around and it did not have enough tension to reset fully

 

[Aquamanmike]

What's

 

[Hippocampus]

As some may know we are currently on our Defever 49 in the Aegean Sea (Greece) and that area is known for the Meltemi winds. Normally speaking we would never come here, since Greece does not have an accurate weather forecast, but we have to get to Turkey to install the stabilizers. The Greek weather forecast is basically identical as it was 3000 years ago, in other words, your guess is as good as mine. Sites like Windy, Predict wind etc use the local information to generate nice looking animations, but they have nothing to do with reality.

This Saturday 2 bft was predicted and all of a sudden we found ourselves in 51 kts wind steady. Managed to find an anchorage, which offers a bit of protection, but while I am writing this we still have 40 kts steady 30 degrees off the port bow.
Luckily I have a lot of chain and we threw out 90 mtrs of chain in 4 meter deep water, together with our 50 kg Sarca Excel. We set it well and it holds perfect, also installed a double snubber and two land lines to hold us in place and to keep us with the bow in the waves.

This morning I wanted to know how the anchor had performed through the night. I was pretty amazed to see the first 25 meters of chain (measured from the water line) solid off the bottom of the sea. The next 20 meters was actually still moving and only after that the chain did not move at all. So a scope of 5 : 1 would not have made it. 4 + 3 = 7 x 5 = 35 meters chain would have been an advised scope. The anchor would most certainly been pulled out.

I know I overdid it with more than 12 : 1 scope, but in storms like this I am not taking any chances. 15 meters behind my boat I have the shore which is basically rocks, so I have no room to drag my anchor.
The only problem I have is .................charter boats. The boats that are rented for a week by people who mostly cannot anchor or even cannot sail. They come into the anchorage, don't check where the anchors are, they simply drop their anchor, put out the minimum amount of chain and leave the boat by itself. They are off to shore.
Two hours ago a 40' catamaran showed up, dropped their anchor without asking where my anchor is (missed us by 2 meters) and let out the bare minimum. Now he is lying right in front of my bow. If he starts to drag I have a catamaran on my bow, not looking forward to that and this night the winds are expected to increase to 6 bft (according to the forecast), but we now have the experience that it usually means 1 or 2 bft extra. Wind force 8 with a catamaran on your bow is not a good idea. Going to be a long night again.

This catamaran ahead of us is the latest in a long line of 'idiots on the water', being the charter crews. Last week I had my anchor pulled out 3 times on one day and twice I found a boat hanging on my anchor chain. The skippers completely clueless, even became angry when I called them morons.
Cruising in Europe can be fun, but charter season is horrible and the Meltemi winds make this part of Greece basically a nightmare. We have 14 hours of sailing, in 3 legs, to get to our destination, but it could take over 1 month before we will be able to continue. Whatever happens, we are not leaving this anchorage with wind force 5 or more.

Anyways, long story short. The 5 : 1 scope usually works, but be aware that in strong winds you better throw out as much as you can, it may save you, your boat and whoever is on it. There is no need to risk anything when it is not necessary. But indeed, you need to know how to set an anchor properly and .............having oversized equipment is also not a bad thing. We have a 50 kg Sarca Excel and 140 mtrs of 13 mm chain. According to the books that is too much for our Defever, but we are very happy we have it on board.

Best post in the thread. Like you scared, real scared of charter boats. Even those that come with captains. Also look critically at the boats that anchor near me. Watch them anchor. Look at how well they seem to be maintained. Long ago started to anchor as far away from the dinghy dock as reasonably possible. I know my anchor and technique. Perfectly happy to have a longer dinghy ride to shore. Currently lucky. Where we cruise it’s fairly easy to stay out of designated anchorages. But in the Caribbean that wasn’t true so just did my best to stay upwind and away from the crowd.

 

[Southern Boater]

. We have a 50 kg Sarca Excel and 140 mtrs of 13 mm chain. According to the books that is too much for our Defever, but we are very happy we have it on board.

That is some seriously good ground tackle, and as you say, definitely over specced for the size of boat. You must have a good anchor winch to get all that onboard again!
I’ve got the “baby” version of the Sarca Excel at a mere 36 kg’s , couldn’t be more pleased with its performance.

 

[esheufelt]

Another issue

I know this is an old thread but I have had the same experience. I've been boating for 40 yrs and have anchored hundreds of times so my techniques is pretty solid. We bought a new 55 lb Vulcan for our 42 ft trawler for a trip to BC. We had plenty of time so we're anchoring in easy locations.

The first week I took 2-3 tries to get a good set. On every failed set the anchor came up with the shackle hooked crossways around the shank.

I tried different shackles and swivels and still kept getting it jammed.

At a marina then next boat over had the same anchor, I asked if he had trouble and he said not anymore but he did initially.

The problem is the slot in the stick is big and long so the shank can poke through the shackle hoop an jam. His solution was to thread a big zip tie several time through the slot to prevent the shackle sliding down the slot.

I tried it and it worked for me too.

 

[Nepidae]

It may be that I didn't understand your comment.

We have the original Rocna, a 25, that we have never had your experiences and in our method of anchoring I don't think the entanglement you experience could happen.

We have a roller on the bow of our boat and when we release the pin that holds the anchor in place, the shank goes vertical. Using foot pedals, the mate starts the drop of the anchor. When the anchor hits bottom, a slight play in the chain, i start backing down as she lets out more chain.

When, depending on the depth and the amount of scope we want, we have hit that amount of rode put out, keeping in the count, the rise of our bow to the waterline, she stops laying out chain and I stop reverse movement.

A certain amount of momentum will come into play, but we wait a short time for the anchor to settle then I back down in idle. When the chain 'stiffens', I stop and we know we are set and will then drop some more chain and attach either our snubber or bridle, whichever the conditions call for.

Our Lofrans windlass has a large cleat on the top and with our snubber which is a dock line with a big box store hook fastened to it. This hook is attached to a link in the chain.

We then drop some more chain and cleat the line leaving a nice loop above the water.

Our method held us on the Mississippi in an 8mph current, but we used our bridle attaching the legs to our 2 samson posts.

You didn't mention whether you had a chain rode, a windlass or a roller so it is hard to tell how the rode gets tangled in the shank opening but how we do it there is always tension on the rode which doesn't seem that would allow for the issues you have had.

Quite possibly it is the Vulcan which is the difference between your situation & mine, maybe.

BUT, all that said, if your method works for you in your specific circumstances, then keep up the cable tie/zip tie method.

Stay safe out there.

 

[rslifkin]

The shackle hang-up is an interesting one. I can see how that could happen on the Vulcan, but personally, I haven't seen it occur on my 73lb version (with a 3/8" HT shackle).

 

[Nepidae]

Forgot to mention that we have a Mantus swivel in our setup..

 

[esheufelt]

I had a 44 original Rocna and never had the problem. My first set up with the Vulcan was with a swivel, then 2 shackles, then a bigger shackle at the anchor and finally just a single at the anchor. I think part of my problem was an undersized shackle. I had 5/16 G4 so could only fit a 3/8 shackle. If I remember I think Rocna called for a 7/16 so maybe the 7/16 would free itself. I'm going up to 3/8 chain so I'll try the bigger shackle.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have had both the Rocna and the Vulcan. Both great anchors but vastly prefer the Vulcan. As formal tests have shown the Vulcan has less trouble if current or tide shifts you 180 degrees. The Vulcan either stays below the bed surface or resets immediately. The Rocna doesn’t. Also in strong sustained loading I firmly believe the Vulcan buries deeper as it doesn’t have the resistance of the Rocna roll bar when it digs deep down. We were anchored in st. Anne’s outside LeMarin and it blowed dogs off their chains for a week. The Rocna held but you could still see the roll bar. After 2 days of similar conditions only chain showed with the Vulcan. I had to wake up and go through the whole move and reset rigamole with a reversing current with the Rocna more than once.

 

[BruceK]

I know this is an old thread but I have had the same experience. I've been boating for 40 yrs and have anchored hundreds of times so my techniques is pretty solid. We bought a new 55 lb Vulcan for our 42 ft trawler for a trip to BC. We had plenty of time so we're anchoring in easy locations.

The first week I took 2-3 tries to get a good set. On every failed set the anchor came up with the shackle hooked crossways around the shank.

I tried different shackles and swivels and still kept getting it jammed.

At a marina then next boat over had the same anchor, I asked if he had trouble and he said not anymore but he did initially.

The problem is the slot in the stick is big and long so the shank can poke through the shackle hoop an jam. His solution was to thread a big zip tie several time through the slot to prevent the shackle sliding down the slot.
shank
I tried it and it worked for me too.

Similar experience with a Super Sarca which has a sliding slot in the shank where the pin of a long shackle is inserted. I solved it with an old style swivel between the "U" shackle and the shackle to attach to the chain, it gets the shackle away from the end of the shank so it can`t foul. Common issue it seems, I think Sarca makes a part to do the job.