2nd start of fire in electrical equipment, what are your experiences ?

[rslifkin]

Slightly warm at full load is perfectly normal. If they're not, then the cables would be significantly oversized.

 

[Insequent]

Perhaps it is me, but I don't see the MC4 connectors. The green connection block is exactly what I have and that is the one that is giving me problems. I do have MC4 connectors near the panels, the panels come with them.

Weil, its partly you! The front page of the data sheet says screw OR MC4 connectors. The picture is of the screw connector model. So fair enough, you don't see them. But, page 2 of the data sheet notes 2 pairs of MC4 connectors.

Here is a pic of the 150/100, showing 3 pairs of MC4 connectors. The point I'm making is that they are available.

 

[SteveK]

Here you go. Data sheet attached. These models have 2 pairs of MC4's, while other models have 3 pairs of them. You need multiple 6mm2 wire pairs if you have long cable runs. You likely have voltage drop in your current installation.

I am missing how to get the wire size used into an MC4 connector. As I recall line loss was a concern for the distance from panels to controller.

 

[Insequent]

Victron can supply 6mm2 cables with the MC4 connectors factory fitted. Of course you can crimp your own connectors, to either 4mm2 or 6mm2 cables. Victron's MC4 variants of their controllers can come with 1,2 or 3 pairs of MC4 connectors so a lot of options for distance or multiple panel configurations.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Warm is fine. When you put 20 amps through a 10g, it gets warm too. Sixty amps through a 6g is warm also. Not hot, just a little over ambient.

 

[BruceK]

You`ve lost faith in Victron. You`ll always be anxious about their equipment, you are sensitized to their products forever. Remove and replace with another make. Job done.

 

[twistedtree]

BTW, what exactly is fire proof, or fire resistant wire? Is there some standard that it meets?

 

[Turtle Blues]

I commend you for always providing a measured reasonable response even in the face of some withering criticism. Agreement is not a requirement for a discussion. Civility is.
I want to make note of your statement that you need to regularly tighten the screw connections. While a normal maintenance item on large gear, the small size of the screw terminals on this equipment do not have sufficient contact area for this to be normal or safe. IMO this is an indication of wire expansion and contraction, not a normally seen issue with this type of connector and as they have been repeatedly tightened to possibly a higher torque than required the threads are surely stretched at this point. I would not be comfortable with this issue.

 

[psneeld]

https://www.anixter.com/en_us/resources/literature/wire-wisdom/flame-retardant-cable-vs--fire-rated-resistive-cable.html

The Main Difference​

There are enormous differences between flame-retardant cables and fire-resistive cables. Typically, flame-retardant cables resist the spread of fire into a new area, whereas fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions. These circuit integrity cables continue to operate in the presence of a fire and are sometimes called 1-hour or 2-hour fire-rated cables. The differences between these two ratings are essential for the critical circuits required for life safety requirements.

Frequently Asked Questions​

Is a flame-retardant cable also fire-rated?

No. A flame-retardant cable is not a fire-rated cable. A flame-retardant cable is designed only to restrict the spread of a fire by inhibiting combustion. Fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions such as fire.

 

[twistedtree]

https://www.anixter.com/en_us/resources/literature/wire-wisdom/flame-retardant-cable-vs--fire-rated-resistive-cable.html

The Main Difference​

There are enormous differences between flame-retardant cables and fire-resistive cables. Typically, flame-retardant cables resist the spread of fire into a new area, whereas fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions. These circuit integrity cables continue to operate in the presence of a fire and are sometimes called 1-hour or 2-hour fire-rated cables. The differences between these two ratings are essential for the critical circuits required for life safety requirements.

Frequently Asked Questions​

Is a flame-retardant cable also fire-rated?

No. A flame-retardant cable is not a fire-rated cable. A flame-retardant cable is designed only to restrict the spread of a fire by inhibiting combustion. Fire-resistive cables maintain circuit integrity and continue to work for a specific time under defined conditions such as fire.

Thanks. I guess one thing I’m wondering is what level of resistance does standard boat cable have. There is a UL spec for boat cable, but I don’t know it off hand.

 

[Stabi]

Having just read through, one quick question. Would it not be OK from a safety standpoint to do what was suggested early on, namely, to use a terminal block to connect the oversize wire to the correct size wire prior to installing into the Victron device? Would this not be Problem Solved?

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yes. You could use the existing wire to the block and then the fine strand wire block to unit.

 

[Mambo42]

UPDATE and twist of the story

Spoke today with main distributor of Victron in the Netherlands, they are the ones where other wholesalers and shops turn to.
Had to call them for a different matter, but then I told them the story and the answer was quite suprising.

They are fully aware of the issue, in fact have also raised it with Victron. They don't understand why Victron makes the cable sizes so critical, especially if you have longer distances than the 5 mtr Victron talks about. They are also aware of cables coming loose and actually told me that they had advised Victron to change the connection block.
We all know what the answer of Victron is. According to these guys it is because of cheaper production this way. I am not sure I agree with that one, think that, by now, it has more to do with legal problems if they would change it.

So this was a very interesting conversation and apparently I am not the only one who thinks this connection block needs to be changed.

 

[Mambo42]

BTW, what exactly is fire proof, or fire resistant wire? Is there some standard that it meets?

The insulation of a normal cable can burn and will also burn if it becomes too hot. The cables that I now have will not burn (unless the whole boat burns down), so they will not become a source of a fire.
In my case the MPPT controller started to melt and burn, the cables did not burn or melt at all. Only the part that was in the MPPT controller blackened a bit, but that was it.

 

[Wildbill]

Thank you , silently learning, we have a 100 amp controller

 

[BILL GOOD1]

Yesterday we had our second scare in a one year period. Luckily we were onboard when I suddenly smelled the typical scent of an electrical fire. So I jumped in the lazarette, shut everything down and found out that the connection of the cables of one solar panel, leading into the MPPT controller had come loose and subsequently started the melting of the connection block on the MPPT controller.
Would I not have intervened it would have ended up in a fire and possibly loss of the whole boat.

Last year I also had a beginning fire and the cause of the fire was identical, the screws holding the cable had loosened up due to the vibrations of the boat in heavy seas. After the first fire I decided to check all the connections every month, which means that every month I tighten up all the screws / nuts which connect cables. The last time I did it was 3 weeks ago, since that time we have put another 50 hours on the engines and quite a bit of it was in rough weather, so a lot of vibrations.

My question is if anyone has the same problems with connections coming loose and if so, what did you do to stop them from coming loose ? It is absurd that I have to start checking all the connections now on a weekly basis, there has to be a better solution. Unfortunately the producer of the equipment has the position that there is nothing wrong, it is all a matter of incorrect installation by a non knowledgeable installer according to them. I.o.w. not their problem and no need to change anything in the design.
Reason ?
This MPPT controller needs a 5 mm2 cable with cable shoe.
In the country where this equipment was installed a 5 mm2 cable is not available, it is either 4 or 6 mm2 and thus the 6 mm2 was used. As a result however the combination of 6 mm2 plus cable shoe does not fit in the connection block of the MPPT controller and thus the shoe was left out. According to the producer that is the cause of the problem and it is not their problem, I should have used to correct cable and shoe. The fact that those are perhaps not for sale in certain countries does not register with them.

I have e-mailed with a representative of this company and must say that it is clear I am dealing with a sales person. Everything is the mistake of the user and company that installed it. He even went so far that I should tell companies to go to the producer for further training, i.o.w. I have to start doing their job.

Anyway, if anyone has similar experiences I would like to hear it, but mostly I am looking for solutions to stop the cables from coming loose while underway.

 

[BILL GOOD1]

Mambo42. This is so wrong on every level. I don't know what size solar panels you have BUT given you have a 15A solar charger you would have for this unit 220w of power to convert to 12v. The range of input voltage would be 18v (lowest) to lets pick yours is max 75v. This would be 12amps for 18v & less than 3amps for 75v & that is how you size the PV panels wire. Look at the size of the wires on your panels to see. No point in such large wires going in. Next If the shoe is too large then file it down to fit the terminals. The victron terminals will hold the wires of the correct size but the shoe will provide the best connection. Best you terminate all the wires again & if you stick with the ones you have remove the extra wires until you can get a proper connection. Maybe seek a victron installer to ensure it is to standard. To see that much heating leads me to think you have low voltage input but the controller will only ever take the rated power not what the panels could deliver.
Regards
ps Check out aircraft wires for a closer size.

 

[Mambo42]

Mambo42. This is so wrong on every level. I don't know what size solar panels you have BUT given you have a 15A solar charger you would have for this unit 220w of power to convert to 12v. The range of input voltage would be 18v (lowest) to lets pick yours is max 75v. This would be 12amps for 18v & less than 3amps for 75v & that is how you size the PV panels wire. Look at the size of the wires on your panels to see. No point in such large wires going in. Next If the shoe is too large then file it down to fit the terminals. The victron terminals will hold the wires of the correct size but the shoe will provide the best connection. Best you terminate all the wires again & if you stick with the ones you have remove the extra wires until you can get a proper connection. Maybe seek a victron installer to ensure it is to standard. To see that much heating leads me to think you have low voltage input but the controller will only ever take the rated power not what the panels could deliver.
Regards
ps Check out aircraft wires for a closer size.

I don't have a 12 V system, I have a 24 V system onboard and according to Victron the max Watts of a panel can be 400, that is what I have.
For 15 Amps, according to Victron, I should use a 5 mm2 cable, which you cannot get in Europe (is next to impossible), so a 6 mm2 cable was chosen.

Now, I know a lot of you have been saying a ferrule should be used. All of you I would like to point to a video that was published today about Victron, ferrules, cables etc. All the things I have been stating are basically acknowledged by the maker of this video, a guy that I don't know. He actually demonstrates that a ferrule comes off the cable real easy, so what is the point of a ferrule ?
Also the main distributor of Victron has told Victron that the connection block of the MPPT controller should be changed.
And guess what. If you look at the Orion you will see that the connection block has changed, now it is safe. So you can ask yourself: 'why is Victron refusing to warn customers for the connection block of MPPT controllers ?
In fact, if that connection block is so safe...............why did they make a new MPPT controller with a MC4 connector ?
Maybe you should start answering those questions instead of coming up with more excuses for this flawed design ?

 

[BILL GOOD1]

220watts is the specs for any output power 12v or 24v. The input requirement for the MTTP unit would be approx 7% more @ 235watts. Would need to know what the voltage is going into the MTTP to get the real max & min current involved. I personally use aircraft wiring where necessary on my boat. (flame retartant).The shoe is flat and gives a wide clamp area. The clamp action of the screw terminal on the victron will fan out & flatten the wires to allow max current.

 

[luna]

If indeed the ferrule comes off of the copper conductor "real easy" perhaps the maker of this unavailable video should acquire and learn how to use the proper ferrule and crimper.

With respect to the proper 5 mm2 wire's availability in Europe, Ancor's 10 AWG Marine Primary Wire, which has an area of 5.26 mm2 is offered from stock by the following firms, who all call it 5mm2 wire:
- Bluemarinestore, from Spain.
- Energig, in Denmark.
- Marine Parts Direct in Dublin.
- Poseidon Marine from Bulgaria
- Amazon.nl or .de or .be. Take your pick!

If you have no confidence that any of these firms is actually going to deliver, then if you go to the Pacer Group's website you will find a 30+ year old family owned company that actually manufacturers Marine Grade wire that is UL1426, ABYC & USCG compliant.
I find it more flexible than Ancor's product.
They will also supply you with good quality ferrules and the proper crimper, plus any other terminals you may need.
All shipped to Greece from Florida. Likely in about a week.

10 AWG Marine wire fits the MPPT's terminal without a ferrule or with a ferrule, just carefully look at what CMS has already offered.

To continue to maintain that you can't get, in effect 5mm2 Marine Grade Primary wire in Europe is simply absurd.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Right click on the video, copy the URL and open in a new tab.
It is a you-tube video that shows the new Orion XS. Which does in fact have real electrical terminal lug screws. An improvement that would have prevented the OP experiencing this issue (and it's 263 comments to date)

 

[Mambo42]

220watts is the specs for any output power 12v or 24v. The input requirement for the MTTP unit would be approx 7% more @ 235watts. Would need to know what the voltage is going into the MTTP to get the real max & min current involved. I personally use aircraft wiring where necessary on my boat. (flame retartant).The shoe is flat and gives a wide clamp area. The clamp action of the screw terminal on the victron will fan out & flatten the wires to allow max current.

Just read the manual of Victron 100 / 15 MPPT controller and you will find out that it can handle a 400 W solar panel.
I simply don't understand what you are trying to prove here ?
Input is around 33 V, output is around 27 V. I can't help you any further, since the MPPT controller burned out and it was the only one I had at 15 A. Otherwise I could take a look at my Victron app.

All the other items are just noise and not important. The fact is that the screw in the connection block came loose, that resulted in more resistance, more heat and the controller melted.

 

[Mambo42]

If indeed the ferrule comes off of the copper conductor "real easy" perhaps the maker of this unavailable video should acquire and learn how to use the proper ferrule and crimper.

With respect to the proper 5 mm2 wire's availability in Europe, Ancor's 10 AWG Marine Primary Wire, which has an area of 5.26 mm2 is offered from stock by the following firms, who all call it 5mm2 wire:
- Bluemarinestore, from Spain.
- Energig, in Denmark.
- Marine Parts Direct in Dublin.
- Poseidon Marine from Bulgaria
- Amazon.nl or .de or .be. Take your pick!

If you have no confidence that any of these firms is actually going to deliver, then if you go to the Pacer Group's website you will find a 30+ year old family owned company that actually manufacturers Marine Grade wire that is UL1426, ABYC & USCG compliant.
I find it more flexible than Ancor's product.
They will also supply you with good quality ferrules and the proper crimper, plus any other terminals you may need.
All shipped to Greece from Florida. Likely in about a week.

10 AWG Marine wire fits the MPPT's terminal without a ferrule or with a ferrule, just carefully look at what CMS has already offered.

To continue to maintain that you can't get, in effect 5mm2 Marine Grade Primary wire in Europe is simply absurd.

Do you work for Victron ?
Am getting the idea you are one of their sales reps or am I wrong ?

When even their main distributor in the Netherlands has raised the issue with Victron and got zero response and now a random guy on Youtube also comes to the same conclusion, you just keep rambling on about where on this planet you can get a 5 mm2 cable ????

If you cannot or don't want to read then I have no intention of reacting to you any further. You just don't seem to want to understand the reasons why a different cable was used. That can be because you can only focus on one item only or you have some dealings with Victron.
For me your reactions are basically noise, sorry to say, but your reasoning that a fire is acceptable when you use the wrong cable is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Mambo42]

Right click on the video, copy the URL and open in a new tab.
It is a you-tube video that shows the new Orion XS. Which does in fact have real electrical terminal lug screws. An improvement that would have prevented the OP experiencing this issue (and it's 263 comments to date)

Thanks for the tip, managed to change it, video should now be visible.
For some reason some people just cannot seem to focus on the real issue, they just keep rambling on about the non important issues. Glad to see someone else has picked up on the changes Victron made..........changes that were not necessary according to Victron.
If everything was so perfect...............why change it ?

 

[luna]

Again, I will answer your questions in your order.

- No I do not work for Victron or any employer whatsoever. I retired from the steel fabrication business in 2009.

- Based on the above facts, you are wrong, again.

- I only continue to point out where you can easily acquire proper 5mm2 wire because you continue to say stuff like "which you cannot get in Europe" and "(is next to impossible)".

-I have read everything that you have written, much of which I don't agree with.

-You chose to use a cable (for whatever reason) that did not comply with the Victron Manual and are now bellyaching that Victron should change their design as it's a hazard if you use, in your words,..........wait for it........... "the wrong cable".

Victron told you what would happen and it did! What did you expect?

Now how about answering my 3 questions from a week +/- ago?

 

[luna]

Ok, the video is live, thanks for that.

Unfortunately the star of the video lost all credibility in my mind when he crimped the Wire Pin Terminal with the tooth of the cheap crimper aligned with the seam (even if it is a brazed seam) in the Terminal's barrel.

CMS and every terminal crimper manufacturer that I am familiar with says to keep the tooth away from the seam. Good crimpers actually don't have teeth.

Have a look here.

Marine Wire Termination - Marine How To

Marine Wire Termination - Tools of the Trade MHT Recommended Tools: The products below are our top picks for crimp tools. RecommendationsI include; PRO GRADE, MARINE GRADE, & PENNY SAVER GRADE. Every tool recommended BELOW, we have tested here.

marinehowto.com

I does not surprise me one bit that after installing the ferrule with a crimper that you can get "easily and cheaply", then you shorten a crimped ferrule using "Irwin Cable Shears", and finally you reform the ferrule using some needle nose "pliers" into a somewhat square shape that in the end, the ferrule easily pulls off. What did you expect?

With respect to the larger terminals on the Orion XS when compared to the Orion TR Smart, did it not occur to you that a 66% increase (30 to 50 Amps) in Amperage might require a larger terminal?

What I don't like is from the video it might be that on the XS (it's hard to tell) that a ferrule is required as the terminal looks like it is a direct bearing terminal where the screw is in contact with the stranded wire, which is not allowed.
The Manual which I don't have, nor do I care to read will likely provide guidance should you chose to read it.

Life is too short for bad Youtube Videos, even with good coffee.

 

[Mako]

OP, I haven't read the entire 9 pages, but on another note, when you work in safety management and risk reduction strategies, the first and best order of business is to eliminate the problem.

What can you do to eliminate/minimize the vibrations? Some vibration isolators, which could be as simple as rubber mounts, perhaps.

 

[Mambo42]

OP, I haven't read the entire 9 pages, but on another note, when you work in safety management and risk reduction strategies, the first and best order of business is to eliminate the problem.

What can you do to eliminate/minimize the vibrations? Some vibration isolators, which could be as simple as rubber mounts, perhaps.

I have been thinking about a solution, but even clamping down the cables so that they cannot move anymore is, most likely, not going to solve the problem. It is not that the cable is being pulled out that causes the problem, it is the connection screw that comes loose which causes the overheat, melting and subsequent fire.

In the video I posted the guy is tightening up the connections, but then he states that he has to do it again after only a few minutes because the screws come loose. He also shows that ferrules easily come off and those two issues basically will cause the heating problem. After all, even if the cable does not move, but the screw comes loose the connection will be partially lost and resistance will rise, thereby increasing heat in the connection.
In the video he also shows the new connection blocks that Victron uses now in different equipment, where the problem has been solved.
So now the question becomes: 'why does Victron change the connection blocks in some equipment and not in all equipment ?'
As stated, the MPPT controller itself functions fine, they do their work perfect, so if Victron would just come up with a different connection block the MPPT controllers would be great. I have called the main distributor in the Netherlands for the MPPT controller with the MC4 connectors, but they don't sell them. No idea why but they don't. have them in the inventory.

 

[CMS]

I don't have a 12 V system, I have a 24 V system onboard and according to Victron the max Watts of a panel can be 400, that is what I have.
For 15 Amps, according to Victron, I should use a 5 mm2 cable, which you cannot get in Europe (is next to impossible), so a 6 mm2 cable was chosen.

Now, I know a lot of you have been saying a ferrule should be used. All of you I would like to point to a video that was published today about Victron, ferrules, cables etc. All the things I have been stating are basically acknowledged by the maker of this video, a guy that I don't know. He actually demonstrates that a ferrule comes off the cable real easy, so what is the point of a ferrule ?
Also the main distributor of Victron has told Victron that the connection block of the MPPT controller should be changed.
And guess what. If you look at the Orion you will see that the connection block has changed, now it is safe. So you can ask yourself: 'why is Victron refusing to warn customers for the connection block of MPPT controllers ?
In fact, if that connection block is so safe...............why did they make a new MPPT controller with a MC4 connector ?
Maybe you should start answering those questions instead of coming up with more excuses for this flawed design ?

You're sharing a video by a guy that has no clue, is using horribly cheap Chinese crimpers on the ferrules and crimps the pin terminals incorrectly. ?He also is not using a torque spec....

Is that supposed to convince us that Victron's phoenix connectors are a bad design? If the guy had used quality crimp tooling the ferrule would not pull off. Again, with as PROPER install these don't melt down. Your install was so far from correct the only blame here is your installer..

 

[CMS]

In the video he also shows the new connection blocks that Victron uses now in different equipment, where the problem has been solved.
So now the question becomes: 'why does Victron change the connection blocks in some equipment and not in all equipment ?'

They use bigger terminals in the XS 50 because it is 50A not 15A. The XS 50 also requires the use of ferrules under safety standards as grub screws are not allowed to directly impinge on the bare wire..


As stated, the MPPT controller itself functions fine, they do their work perfect, so if Victron would just come up with a different connection block the MPPT controllers would be great. I have called the main distributor in the Netherlands for the MPPT controller with the MC4 connectors, but they don't sell them. No idea why but they don't. have them in the inventory.

They use bigger terminals in the XS 50 because it is 50A not 15A. The XS 50 also requires the use of ferrules or pin terminals under the safety standards. This is because grub screws are not allowed to directly impinge on the bare wire.. The MPPT Phoenix connectors do not require the use of ferrules which saves money.. Again, when installed correctly these issues are not going to happen...