B.C. Becoming Concerned Over Cruise Ship By Pass

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Alaska Senator introduces legislation U.S. to by pass B.C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...hips-bypass-b-c-proposed-alaska-law-1.5961132

 

[Frosty]

I'm wondering how anyone could be "shocked" that this came "without any forewarning." I mean, there's been a pandemic going on for a full year, and borders have been closed for nearly as long. How much more forewarning could there be?

Also, although "until February 2022" sounds like ages from now, in practical terms it seems to mean basically "this coming summer." In other words, starting a month from now. There is no cruise ship industry heading north to Alaska in winter; and February 2022 would not be a part of the following summer which would not start until around May 2022.

I have no idea if US politicians can make a change in shipping rules, so I can't speak to that; but expressing surprise and shock seems odd.

Maybe they should consider running ships that are not just trying to avoid being US registered (which is why they have to stop in BC). That would solve the problem, and create US jobs it would seem.

Otherwise it reminds me of people who buy a cheap house because it is under the flight path of an airport, and then complain about the noise and try to get the planes re-routed over the other neighborhoods (where people paid full price). (I say this because the "need" to stop in BC stems from the fact that non-US-Flagged ships can't go from US port to US port.) If they are so concerned about the US economy, why not run US-flagged ships and then you get the cruise ship traffic AND all the other benefits.

****************

The Alaska Tourism Recovery Act was introduced exactly three weeks after U.S. politicians wrote a letter on behalf of Congress to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, expressing frustration with Canada's steps to limit foreign travel.


"We were shocked by the decision announced by your government last week to extend the ban on cruise ships carrying over 100 passengers until Feb. 28, 2022," read the letter, dated Feb. 12.


"We are particularly concerned that this decision was made without any forewarning to or consultation with Alaska, your neighbour and partner," wrote two senators and the congressman from Alaska.

 

[SteveK]

It would provide an exemption to the current and long-standing Passenger Vessel Services Act, by waiving the requirement for ships to stop in a foreign country — meaning cruises could travel directly from Seattle to Alaska without stopping in B.C.

Well that explains why we stopped in Victoria on the way back. I almost got off but wanted to see Puget sound to Seattle. I had the right idea, after supper the boat departed for a dark trip to Seattle, never again.

IF cruise ships operate here again they will include stops in these ports, meanwhile, not sure who cares they will bypass a Canada stop on a US to US cruise.

 

[markpierce]

Pass the law! Canadian ports aren't open to tourists, so no harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted.

 

[Frosty]

Pass the law! Canadian ports aren't open to tourists, so no harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted.

But this is really about US law and cruise ship companies that use loopholes isn't it? So while the immediate affect would be negative for BC, the long-term implications would be more likely to hurt US interests, wouldn't they? It's a US law that is the issue not a Canadian one.

I'm not a maritime expert, but I thought the law was put in place FOR US interests, not against them. Then the actual issue now is that the cruise ships use foreign-flagged vessels to exercise a loophole in the US law, but now they want to "have their loophole and eat it, too." IOW, they want a loophole in the loophole is how it seems? So they can continue to use foreign-flagged vessels (cheaper) but not have the disadvantages that go along with it according to US law.

 

[markpierce]

No harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted But Alaska shouldn't suffer for Canadian decisions.

US maritime companies aren't suddenly coming up with ships and crews for the Alaskan cruise-ship industries to comply with the Jones Act. So, no harm there.

 

[SteveK]

No harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted But Alaska shouldn't suffer for Canadian decisions.

US maritime companies aren't suddenly coming up with ships and crews for the Alaskan cruise-ship industries to comply with the Jones Act. So, no harm there.

so Mark,
Why is this law necessary at this time. No cruise ships may enter BC until 2022 at the earliest. So it seems like idle grandstanding to pass a law that does not change anything.
Perhaps to give it teeth, they should also ban Canadians from taking a cruise out of Seattle, that will teach us to go to the Caribbean instead.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. MP. "...Alaska shouldn't suffer for Canadian decisions." True and the reverse is true, as well. Canada shouldn't risk potential suffering/death for American decisions (failure to adequately deal with the pandemic).


Your "self inflicted harm" might be better described as self preservation.

 

[Frosty]

No harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted But Alaska shouldn't suffer for Canadian decisions.

But it's a US Shipping law that is the root of the problem. Because cruise ship companies get around that US law by running foreign-flagged ships (thus sending lots of their money away from the US), they have to stop in Canada (loophole in US law). Because there is a pandemic, they can't do that. Canada is not the villain here.

I'm sure that Cruise ships bring money to Alaska, but it's a US law that is keeping them from getting there right now. That law does not allow foreign-flagged vessels to go directly from one US port to another (to protect US interests). The Cruise ships have been able to circumvent that by popping into a Canadian port, but that "loopholing" is now biting them in the butt on this route (however they've been getting the advantages for decades and .... not complaining!).

I am not a shipper or an economist, but I have to think that US interests would be better served by the companies running US flagged vessels, than by giving them a loophole in the loophole? Put it this way: Would you rather have a US job building/captaining/crewing a ship, or working in a shoreside trinket shop?

 

[rsn48]

The reality is that Vancouver and Victoria are high value Cruising industry destinations, even given a law that allows ships to no longer have to stop at a foreign port. I've been on a few cruises, our ports are more desirable than Ensenada, Catalina Island, Haiti, and a host of poor Caribbean Islands. The reality is that Vancouver will beat out Seattle, more international with more interesting tourist venues.

I don't mean this in a bragging manner, just the reality is that Vancouver and Victoria are premier ports, Nanaimo not so much. But on the competition scale, is Nanaimo better than Skagway, Yes. Skagway is one of those phony cruise ship towns, like other towns owned by the cruising industry. In the summer the residents in Skagway number roughly 2,500 but in the winter 400. In the off season, the entire downtown of Skagway is bordered up. At least Nanaimo is a genuine town with a larger area to visit. Nanaimo shot itself in the foot when they didn't get rid of the tent city that passengers walked past as they went into the downtown area. When I saw that, I knew Nanaimo was in trouble and I was right, the ships stopped going to Nanaimo for a while.

 

[BruceK]

"...Alaska shouldn't suffer for Canadian decisions." True and the reverse is true, as well. Canada shouldn't risk potential suffering/death for American decisions (failure to adequately deal with the pandemic)...

True. Why open the gates to certain infection?
Compare the close neighbours Australia and New Zealand situation. We followed similar paths on avoiding/resolving Covid, with varying episodic levels of success and failure. Next month are looking at a reciprocal "travel bubble", no quarantine on arrival( Aust has been letting NZers in on that basis for a while(with one suspension). I hope it includes proof of vaccination.
Once USA completes vaccination Canada might even reassess. Presumably excluding those not vaccinated.

 

[Frosty]

The reality is that Vancouver and Victoria are high value Cruising industry destinations, even given a law that allows ships to no longer have to stop at a foreign port.

That's a good point and I hope it didn't seem like I was actually advocating US cruise ships skipping Canadian ports. Both Vancouver and Victoria are great spots!

I was just a bit exasperated because somehow people are making it sound like Canada is the bad guy here. To my mind if there is a bad guy, it's the companies that run foreign-flagged vessels in order to get around US Shipping Law. That's fine, they are legal loopholes, but then when the bad side of the loophole that you've been exploiting for years happens to show up, don't cry to change the law.

(I realize it's Alaska that is trying to do this, not the shipping companies, but I didn't like how they are making Canada sound like the problem, when the problems are COVID, and the cruise ship companies that have been enjoying the fruits of the loophole all this time.)

 

[SteveK]

Frosty, no offense taken here, saw what you were saying.

 

[helm]

Hmmm
Or build ships that are going to operate US port to US port in the USA.
Problem solved

 

[Nomad Willy]

Not that I’d wanna get on one but has the Ak State Ferries been operating at slow bell through the pandemic?

 

[SteveK]

Ak State Ferries had a bomb scare today

 

[Frosty]

Not that I’d wanna get on one but has the Ak State Ferries been operating at slow bell through the pandemic?

I just did a quick "find a sailing" for Bellingham to Sitka. Looks like they are running. Must be US-flagged vessels

 

[rsn48]

I hope it didn't seem like I was actually advocating US cruise ships skipping Canadian ports. Both Vancouver and Victoria are great spots!

Many parts of Canada thrive on American tourist dollars just as there are areas in the States that thrive on the Canadian tourist dollar or "cross border shopping." If you ever go to Point Roberts (Washington) and wonder why this dinky little place has so many gas stations - its BC'rs filling up.

The mall at the North end of Billingham can't contain their joy when our Canadian dollar climbs close to par with the American dollar and Canadians go down in droves to shop there.

The number of visits at the Blaine border (one of a few border crossings between BC and Washington) numbers over 10 million visits per year. Both sides want your money.

 

[Coppercove1]

I mostly lurk Trawler forum as I am boatless at present, but love the info and very good level of discourse.

On the subject of the Jones Act that forces foreign flagged vessels to stop in foreign ports in between stops at US ports, I have much experience from 40 years of planning, engineering and building ports all around the Americas.

The US is quite unique amongst countries of the world with its far flung territories for which this law applies: Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, etc. This requires US flagged vessels and crew for commercial trade between these locations.

The downside for US consumers is very high shipping costs compared to what would be available from foreign flag carriers. The upside includes ship building, repair and maritime business and careers for Americans.

It creates strange business opportunities: that is why BC has deep sea aggregate export terminals at Sechelt, Texada Island and Port McNeil that ship sand, gravel and rock to California. It is cheaper to ship these relatively low value commodities to the US from Canada on foreign flag Panamax vessels (including Canada Steamship Lines self unloading bulk carriers) than tug and barge from much closer Westcoast US quarries.

It also means that it is cheaper (at least when I last studied it for an Alaskan mining company), to bring in diesel on tankers direct from the Philippines to Alaska compared to US West Coast refineries).

There are always winners and losers when regulations like the Jones Act exist. The current COVID-19 issue on cruise ships is merely a blip in the history of this law.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[markpierce]

So, some say Canadians don't want cruise ships serving Alaska just because their own ports are closed? It is America's decision, not Canada's!

 

[rsn48]

So, some say Canadians don't want cruise ships serving Alaska just because their own ports are closed? It is America's decision, not Canada's!

I'm not sure where you got this from but lets pretend its true. If a ship transits on the west side of Vancouver Island, I'm not sure how far out, this statement is true. But transiting the interior - Inside Passage - this may not be true.

Don't hold me to this but I think currently they will allow passenger ships that hold 100 (where you are going to find such a beast I don't know) into Canada. If you follow Sea Venture's vlog, he cruised from Washington state up to Alaska last summer, I think he is planning to come back down this summer. He and she talk about the arrangements they had to make to transit.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. MP. "...Canadians don't want cruise ships serving Alaska just because their own ports are closed..." Can you kindly cite your source for that comment, please?
I can't fathom why Canada would want to impede travel of American shipping to and from American ports. As you note, this is purely an American decision.

 

[SteveK]

Has anyone seen what Seattle has to say about this plan?

 

[tiltrider1]

I think there is a bigger game in play. I really don't think this has much to do with Covid but Covid is the excuse to get something the Cruise lines have always wanted, the ability to sail from US port to US port while being flagged in another country. They are taking advantage of Canada's decisions to further their cause. Money is the issue, asking for a change because it would enable them to make more money wont fly. Blaming Canada for the demise of the cruise industry and offering a way to by pass Canada's unfair response has a much better chance of selling.

I think we as a group should not get sucked into the US/Canada finger pointing, doing so means you are being manipulated by big business.

Canada hasn't done anything wrong. A couple of Alaska senators getting big time maritime legislation passed through congress is a giant task. They are probably obligated to make the attempt to pay back the campaign donations they received.

 

[Benthic2]

There is NO WAY you could get a US Flagged cruise ship to be profitable. You would have to double the headcount for staff and crew to comply with US Labor laws for one thing, and pay a minimum wage to everyone. Plus the Ship would lose all the "Duty Free" sales from the onboard gift shop.

I am not sure about all the Lines, but RCL is requiring proof of vaccinations for all adult passengers ( and a recent test for pax under 18 ). I wonder if all the cruise lines did that if Canada would open up a few ports. Maybe put it to a vote of the residents of the port cities ?

 

[soin2la]

B.C. Becoming Concern Over Cruise Ship By Pass

BC is not ”Becoming Concern.” That implies either officials, the citizens, or both are concerned and it is untrue. Those in charge support the Federal ban and an overwhelming number of the BC population favour it, particularly those in the affected ports.

One large lobby segment of the business sector is concerned; the tourism industry. They have been whining and asking for money since the first restriction was implemented a year ago. Many, many, BC tourist based businesses have shifted gears, made adjustments and carried on. Some have changed operating modes, some have learned to rely on locals and some have gone out of business; just like in non-covid times. Some have been quoted that business has been very good, in spite of the pandemic.

Pass the law! Canadian ports aren't open to tourists, so no harm to Canada that isn't self-inflicted.

This illuminates zero understanding of any or all elements of the ban, the PVSA, the proposed change and the reasons behind each.

Canada imposed the ban to prevent harm being inflicted by others. Period. Kinda like the travel ban imposed on many countries by the US, for the same reason.

 

[freshalaska]

Rsn48,
Your statement that Skagway currently has a population of 400 is not close to accurate. The current population is closer to 1000. We, Skagway has inoculated, Covid vaccines way more than 600 people and the kids are not even getting shots.
The entire downtown is boarded up isn't very accurate either. Post office is open, municipal building is open, hardware store is open, liquor store open. Yes most all tourist shops are closed but they mostly are in the winter anyway.
I’ve lived in Skagway for around 8 years now.
A typical summers sees many days, maybe most days with over 10,000 tourists and ship crew a day. Really the only day that that the numbers are low is on Sundays.

 

[SteveK]

I just realized that the two senators are from the federal gov, not AK gov.
Anyone paying any attention knows this will take a year or more to get anywhere, by which time it will become moot once BC/Canada opens the border.

Still not hearing any excitement from Seattle. A covid hotspot sending out thousands of people on those very safe cruise ships crewed by immune people.

Nice trolling Tom

 

[AlanT]

I mostly lurk Trawler forum as I am boatless at present, but love the info and very good level of discourse.

On the subject of the Jones Act that forces foreign flagged vessels to stop in foreign ports in between stops at US ports, I have much experience from 40 years of planning, engineering and building ports all around the Americas.

The US is quite unique amongst countries of the world with its far flung territories for which this law applies: Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, etc. This requires US flagged vessels and crew for commercial trade between these locations.

The downside for US consumers is very high shipping costs compared to what would be available from foreign flag carriers. The upside includes ship building, repair and maritime business and careers for Americans.

It creates strange business opportunities: that is why BC has deep sea aggregate export terminals at Sechelt, Texada Island and Port McNeil that ship sand, gravel and rock to California. It is cheaper to ship these relatively low value commodities to the US from Canada on foreign flag Panamax vessels (including Canada Steamship Lines self unloading bulk carriers) than tug and barge from much closer Westcoast US quarries.

It also means that it is cheaper (at least when I last studied it for an Alaskan mining company), to bring in diesel on tankers direct from the Philippines to Alaska compared to US West Coast refineries).

There are always winners and losers when regulations like the Jones Act exist. The current COVID-19 issue on cruise ships is merely a blip in the history of this law.

Cheers,

Steve

+1

The Jones Act is a fascinating bill with a huge impact on the maritime industry. There are many vested, wealthy entities with businesses that have been built around the Jones Act and it is extremely unlikely IMO that any special interest group would be successful in creating an exception, even on a limited term basis - as this would surely be seen as opening the door to a general weakening of the Jones Act.

~Alan

 

[sunchaser]

Rsn48,
Your statement that Skagway currently has a population of 400 is not close to accurate. The current population is closer to 1000. We, Skagway has inoculated, Covid vaccines way more than 600 people and the kids are not even getting shots.
The entire downtown is boarded up isn't very accurate either. Post office is open, municipal building is open, hardware store is open, liquor store open. Yes most all tourist shops are closed but they mostly are in the winter anyway.
I’ve lived in Skagway for around 8 years now.
A typical summers sees many days, maybe most days with over 10,000 tourists and ship crew a day. Really the only day that that the numbers are low is on Sundays.

Yup, Skagway is a nice place with a robust and rowdy year round population.. My first travels there were in the 1970s and last in 2019. The Klondike history is fascinating and with a vehicle it is a good jumping off place for a lot of interesting places to visit in AK and BC.