Boat search for the Loop

[BandB]

BandB

You're right, what a NICE boat! Very few on the market, suspect this is a really new model, and yes, more than I wish to spend at this time.

Question for you: Would the mast on a boat like this normally be such that it could swing down for clearance?

Yes, I don't know how hard or easy the task is on that boat, but with any boat where the mast is the only issue, it can be resolved. Some just require some modification. We had to modify the boat we're using for the loop.

 

[ranger58sb]

Looking at a few, no swim platform. Is that normal? A swim platform and open back end cockpit are high on the list of qualities.

You can add a swim platform to (many; most?) boats that don't already have one.

Better if there's already a transom door, not uncommon.

-Chris

 

[Marlinmike]

Take a good look at Mainships.

 

[Seevee]

You're asking for some things there that will push you toward the upper end of your size range, if not above.

......

As to semi planing and speed without sacrificing much low end economy is a matter of defining much. You can still get good economy but you're not going to get the levels of economy that some trawler owners brag about.

.......

BandB,

Good points, and I'm sure there will be sacrifices, and realize if we got everything we want, it would push toward a bigger boat.

As for speed.... I just need to do more research and get info. I'm sure many of us wouldn't mind getting half the economy to double the speed at times. But if it's 10 times more costly to go 10% faster, no one would do it... so I just need to find out what these boats really do.

Just guessing, to do this trip in my Sundancer, the fuel bill would be in the range of $10K, getting about 1.7nmpg. That's not horribly bad, but I'm sure there's a ton of much more comfortable boats out there that get much better mileage, and are not "that" much slower (as a good portion would be a slow speed anyway). Besides, the Sundancer is really not a good open water boat.

From a money standpoint, if I bought a boat just for the loop, sold it at the end and took a 15 to 20% hit on the sale, saved some fuel, and had way more comfort, it would be a bargain. And who know, might just keep it.

Money is always an issue, but not a huge concern for this trip. I'm not setting out to see how cheap it can be but am setting out to see how much fun and satisfying it will be. I'm sure it's a trip to remember.

Comfort IS a big consideration. If the admiral is not comfortable, I'll be uncomfortable.

We have decided that the "must haves" now include:

Two staterooms (one would be storage most of the time.
One head/shower is fine.
Obviously Gen and AC.
Washer and dryer of some reasonable size.
An open area in the back, where we can enjoy the outdoors, but preferably with a hard top for a dingy on top with a crane.
Dingy
Swim platform.
Bow thruster or stern thruster or both.

 

[Seevee]

IF its just for the loop, and not a lifestyle , most any IO of 23 ft and up will do just fine for a couple.

With some effort you can have a ZERO round trip, sell the boat $5,000 - $7500 for what you paid for it.

The loop is very enjoyable , but a snooz for most any boat.

FF,

Looks like you have a lot of experience and respect your comments. I'm sure there will be some lifestyle changes, at least for the trip.

Guessing one would have to deal with a slower pace, and the ability to roll with the dice with unknowns.

What would you think the lifestyle changes would be like?

 

[FF]

"What would you think the lifestyle changes would be like?"

"Comfort IS a big consideration. If the admiral is not comfortable, I'll be uncomfortable."

Even though my looper is 50 ft the key is comfort is not (esp inshore) size related.

A well ventilated dry bunk , a comfortable , not dangerous cooking setup , a place to eat meals and a well ventilated PH , head and shower do not require much volume, or size in a vessel.

One must be able to enjoy even a rainy day

Packing a quart in a pint pot has 5000 years of boating history.

Where you sit in comfort to read a book or watch TV or the water view is far more important than where a dozen guests will sit or having a nice echo in the cabin.

Comfort is individual , but upholstery usually counts!

For a modest crew a 25-30 ft gas looper may be more comfortable than a far larger diesel chugger.

These smaller boats are produced in 10X to 40X the volume of "trawlers' and have decades of owner complaints , feedback , comments, improvements in their interiors.

The loop can be mostly dockside or with plenty of anchoring out.

The vessel must handle both with enjoyment.

The only lifestyle change might be more comfort , at far less "round trip" expense.

 

[Seevee]

FF,

Good points, and suspect that comfort is a personal thing.

Certainly agreed, a comfy spot to read or compute is probably very important, as would be a helm seat. I'm not a reader at all, the Admiral is, so a reading spot for her is a great idea. Never really thought much of that.

I'm a computer nut, with forums (like this one). Is internet access petty good on the loop? Do you know how that's handled? Satellite or hot spots?

We will have to learn how to get a quart in a pint bottle. I can, but the Admiral will need some work. I could do the whole trip with 2 pair of shoes and she would want 50. Need to find a solution for that.

How about mail? I like my monthly magazines, is picking them up along the way easy? I could care less about letters, don't get any that mean anything, only bills and the heck with them. Suppose I could just quit paying them for a year. <g>

Did some internet boat shopping yesterday... there's a LOT of choices out there, however, in the trawlers, they really have more similarity than differences. And most of them have a LOT of wood and teak, even the new ones. I'm not against wood, but don't like the maintenance that comes with it, and the "dark" look. However, minor point.

Lots to think about.

 

[ranger58sb]

We have decided that the "must haves" now include:

Two staterooms (one would be storage most of the time.
One head/shower is fine.
Obviously Gen and AC.
Washer and dryer of some reasonable size.
An open area in the back, where we can enjoy the outdoors, but preferably with a hard top for a dingy on top with a crane.
Dingy
Swim platform.
Bow thruster or stern thruster or both.

Except for the washer/dryer, almost any SeaRay, Carver, Bayliner, Cruisers, Maxum, whatever bridge boat in the 35-45' range can solve most of that (relatively) cheaply. IOW, you don't necessarily need a "trawler" brand. And a washer/dryer isn't completely uncommon in many of those anyway, once overall boat size begins to accommodate.

Or another brand might be a Mainship "trawler" or even one of their bridge boats from their non-trawler years.

Boat deck and crane adds a bit of complexity, in addition to cost. Not impossible to carry a dinghy on the stern, on a swim platform that allows platform access even when the dinghy is lifted.

Boat instances that don't have a swim platform, bow, or stern thruster mounted... can have one installed after-market.

It's not even all that difficult to wash clothing by hand, air dry. Or a boat with some spare space could have a W/D installed, after-market.


We (so far) have no interest in the Loop, but we could do it easily enough in our boat, once I dismount (and hopefully sell) the outriggers that we never use. Relatively cheaply, at (mostly) trawler speed. Avatar doesn't show it, but we have a good dinghy, usually carried aft (but we were fishing, the day that pic was taken). I could add a bow and stern thruster; haven't seen the need. We routinely wash clothing by hand when necessary; not difficult. Not saying you need to buy a boat like ours, just that there are lots of ways to skin the cat.

-Chris

 

[smitty477]

"We have decided that the "must haves" now include:

Two staterooms (one would be storage most of the time.
One head/shower is fine.
Obviously Gen and AC.
Washer and dryer of some reasonable size.
An open area in the back, where we can enjoy the outdoors, but preferably with a hard top for a dingy on top with a crane.
Dingy
Swim platform.
Bow thruster or stern thruster or both."

I think this is a great start to the list - if you go back and forth between researching how and where you want to visit along the loop with adding to and then prioritizing this list you will end up with a much better tool for your personal decision. That alone will help guarantee a much better fit than anyone else can supply you with. As you expand your list please consider these items which may or may not affect your choices:
- Exactly which Loop path(s)do you want to experience
- Air clearance
- Boat draft
- how many days on the hook
- Fuel range
- Water capacity
- Line handling ease
- Will others join for part(s) of the trip
- What happens when single head breaks down
- Spares and tool storage
- Suitable fenders and storage for locking etc
- Poor weather cruising capability
- Just AC or heat/AC
- Methods to embark or disembark boat on fixed docks
- Dockside power flexibility


Its always good to have everything on your list even if you choose to move it down to the "I don't care" section. Then when you look back you know you covered it and can move on with what you do care about - wish you great luck figuring out your needs and a great adventure to follow.

 

[FF]

" How about mail?
Is internet access petty good on the loop?
I'm not against wood, but don't like the maintenance that comes with it, and the "dark" look"


There are a number of mail services that will work for a cruiser,at the cost of a phone call , and having magazines sent priority mail is the only added expense.

"General Delivery" in the town you will be visiting works as well a figuring out the specific marina you will stop at in a few days..

There are loads of free wi fi spots in many of the US canals at the start.
Wi Fi in marinas is iffy , depending on your antenna , sitting in the rec room works but is no fun.

Much of Canada has vacation cottages on the shore and small islands with wi fi on and operating with narry a pass word required. Anchor there.

Perhaps a cell phone plan might work in US and Canada ?

Many "trawlers" are sold by the wood look . Use a few coats of varnish over the wood , then paint it out.

The varnish will make it easy for the next owner to strip the paint , and restore the dark wood interior.

Again , if your ego can handle it most gas 30ft boats will easily do the loop.

 

[Seevee]

Some very good points here, thanks much.

Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side.

Good point on the wood, sounds rather easy to deal with, and does have a rich look.

I don't have much of an ego, so any comfy boat "can" do, but will like some creature comforts. After all, that's what we work for.

The washer dryer comments are interesting, but would like to have one... I don't want to spend time doing wash if a machine will do it.

And, we are mostly hang on the hook people, and do our own thing, but nice to mix with others and usually meet them at marinas, etc, so a some of each will do. I'm not a big "go out for dinner" guy, a burger and a beer on the boat is fine for me but the Admiral will want an occasional nice restaurant... but certainly not more that once or twice a week.

I'll adjust the parameters of the size of the boat (draft, air height, beam, capacities, etc. to the cruising requirement for the trip.

Don't have path figured out, but cutting thru NY, Erie, great lakes thru lake Michigan, Chicago River, Illinois River, Mississippi, Tom Bigby across the gulf sounds great. In FL I'll cut across thru Lake Okeechobee and skip the Keys. Been to the keys hundreds of times.

Very good thought, folks, thanks!

 

[BandB]

Some very good points here, thanks much.

Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side.

Good point on the wood, sounds rather easy to deal with, and does have a rich look.

I don't have much of an ego, so any comfy boat "can" do, but will like some creature comforts. After all, that's what we work for.

The washer dryer comments are interesting, but would like to have one... I don't want to spend time doing wash if a machine will do it.

And, we are mostly hang on the hook people, and do our own thing, but nice to mix with others and usually meet them at marinas, etc, so a some of each will do. I'm not a big "go out for dinner" guy, a burger and a beer on the boat is fine for me but the Admiral will want an occasional nice restaurant... but certainly not more that once or twice a week.

I'll adjust the parameters of the size of the boat (draft, air height, beam, capacities, etc. to the cruising requirement for the trip.

Don't have path figured out, but cutting thru NY, Erie, great lakes thru lake Michigan, Chicago River, Illinois River, Mississippi, Tom Bigby across the gulf sounds great. In FL I'll cut across thru Lake Okeechobee and skip the Keys. Been to the keys hundreds of times.

Very good thought, folks, thanks!

The maximum draft for the loop is 19'1". Now that does eliminate some options as you can't take the Champlain or West Erie, just Erie to Oswego River. Draft, most recommend trying to limit to 5', although that's not an absolute necessity.

Washer and dryer and dishwasher are optional items we really value heavily.

 

[FF]

"Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side."

A cheap crap head like a Jabsco might fail easily but a quality mechanical unit will seldom.

Especially if just the crew uses it not guests that have no idea .

To think a second head is required as a "spare " boggles my mind , but could be stowed under a bunk.

 

[Seevee]

FF,
Good point, one can get "overkill" on backups and just has to decide what backups are really necessary. A little portable head might be in order. Without any, it's more than a bit uncomfortable, especially for a lady. A guy can survive easier, but still can be a challenge.

Now, never had one fail, however, never put one to use on a daily basis for months either. .... oh, disregard, I did have one fail and ended up replacing the whole thing. I remember, now.

 

[Mule]

Absloute necessity, Sea Tow or Boats US towing insurance. I would suggest both. This is over and above your regular vessel insurance. If you have it and do not need it if you do not have it and need it

We're there ever an example of an ounce of prevention vs 5lb of cure, this is it.

 

[BlindHog]

My parents have a Hatteras 43 MY that has been repainted and kept under cover that needs to find a new home. Every year I seem to see a couple of these go by every year with a great loop burgee flying on the bow. Shoot me a PM if interested. Wouldn't be much more then your budget.

 

[Seevee]

Absloute necessity, Sea Tow or Boats US towing insurance. I would suggest both. This is over and above your regular vessel insurance. If you have it and do not need it if you do not have it and need it

We're there ever an example of an ounce of prevention vs 5lb of cure, this is it.

Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......

You may find with no proof of insurance you won't be able to get into some marinas. Even for an overnight.

 

[Seevee]

You may find with no proof of insurance you won't be able to get into some marinas. Even for an overnight.

Bill,

That's probably true, but never been asked or heard of that... yet. Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them? And there's other situations where a business or entity wants to see your insurance (and other things). I tend to avoid them. So far, not an issue.

 

[ranger58sb]

Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them?

Yes, and yes.

-Chris

 

[MYTraveler]

One thing I will say that experience has taught me is that once you get use to planning speeds, it's hard to go back.

My last boat was a battle wagon sportfisher that carried 1,000 gallons of fuel but had less than 300nm range at a mid-20 knot cruising speed. That didn't give me near the range I needed to get to the fish I wanted to pursue, so I ended up with my current boat -- 2,300 gallons of fuel, giving a range at 8.5 knots (a really good, fast trolling speed) of over 2,500 nm (with a 10% reserve), and over 2,000 nm range at 10 knots. Doubling that speed cuts the range by about 70%.

Before I ordered the boat, I was aware of those limitations and was concerned about whether I could be comfortable doing everything at trolling speeds. Given my intended use of the boat (primarily multiple-day trips running 24/7), I knew the slower speeds wouldn't bother me at night, since we wouldn't go faster than 10 knots in any event, and I knew that much of my daylight use would be at trolling speed (so we could troll). Even so, I worried that I would regret having given up the fast lane.

To my great surprise and relief, and apparently contrary to your experience, I have found that I have grown to prefer trolling speeds, for a bunch of reasons. First, I find it infinitely more relaxing. I am more comfortable letting others take the helm, I don't worry (as much) about mechanical problems, the ride is much nicer, noise levels are much lower, I see interesting things that I would likely have missed at higher speeds, and it is easy to have other things going on (read a book, bbq, fish, etc.). In short, the travel becomes part of the fun. When going fast the primary thought is always, "how soon until we get there", but while going slow its more like "we will get there tomorrow afternoon".

 

[BandB]

Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......

There are many different items to be insured. If you don't carry liability, then I hope you're prepared to pay a million dollar claim out of pocket. I do feel liability should not be optional anymore than it is on the road. Collision is your business, liability is mine.

Now if you choose no insurance I also hope you're capable of paying the $500k environmental claim resulting from something like sinking.

I carry insurance to protect myself against losses that would be financially significant to me. I also carry it to protect me against uninsured drivers and boaters, uninsured like you. You think it's only you doing something stupid that you'd need it for, but you might well for someone else doing something stupid.

I've never used either of the tow services for a tow, but I carry both memberships. I do it in some ways as thanks to them for the times I do use their captains for information. I also do it as thanks for them being present and available. I don't know if the drunk idiot who ran the 72 footer on the beach the other night had tow membership or not. I do know they were quickly on site with the USCG for salvage work and to assist in protecting against a fuel spill. I believe boating has been made better by their existence in many ways for many people and so paying a hundred or two a year seems like a small thing to them.

I carry insurance on my home and on my cars and my boats. I carry it on myself in the form of an umbrella policy. I carry health insurance even though I've been incredibly healthy. I have had a co-worker whose husband had a lung transplant and saw the cost of that and was very happy they were insured through our employer.

Again, it's your business whether you protect yourself or not, but it's my business whether you protect me. As to marina, your boat could catch fire through something you couldn't foresee and destroy a dock and ten other boats. Can you afford that?

And, yes, I have been asked to show proof of insurance at marinas both in the US and elsewhere. Most of the time not for a one night stay but sometimes for it. Almost always for stays of a week or longer.

 

[Seevee]

BandB,

You make some good points, and logical. But it's for YOUR situation and may not be good for all folks.

You just can't insure yourself against everything..... so the question is how much coverage do you want for the risk you take? That's a personal answer.

You could have 1MM and not be enough, 5MM, 10MM and still not enough. You could hit a tour boat and the suits range up into the 100MM range, now what do you do? And you can run into things that are just not insurable. Perhaps you have a boating accident and some power hungry cop arrests you for a criminal act, and now you need a defense. Hard to insure that.

So it's a matter of risk tolerance and what your level of risk is, and what it costs to reduce the risk.

And, yes, you can insure against guys without insurance, if you wish.

 

[BandB]

So it's a matter of risk tolerance and what your level of risk is, and what it costs to reduce the risk.

And, yes, you can insure against guys without insurance, if you wish.

Yes, but I shouldn't have to insure against those with no liability and shouldn't have to pay more because they don't pay their share. Look at what uninsured motorists have done to your auto insurance, if you have it.

I've never had an accident that was my fault. Lucky in that respect. However, I've been glad to have my insurer insisting on their insurer paying what they should. And, I have had several claims where my car was parked and run into resulting in significant damage, all when I was under 21 years old, all hit and run, although two of the four were subsequently caught.

 

[MYTraveler]

To think a second head is required as a "spare " boggles my mind , but could be stowed under a bunk.

When I spec'd my boat, I wanted complete redundancy of all mission critical systems. I wasn't 100% successful (only have one hull), but having lost all of my heads when the holding tank pump failed, I included head redundancy as mission critical. On this boat, one of my four heads is completely independent of and redundant to the other three -- separate holding tank, pumps, etc.

 

[Seevee]

When I spec'd my boat, I wanted complete redundancy of all mission critical systems. I wasn't 100% successful (only have one hull), but having lost all of my heads when the holding tank pump failed, I included head redundancy as mission critical. On this boat, one of my four heads is completely independent of and redundant to the other three -- separate holding tank, pumps, etc.

MY,

That's a good thought... when you have a spare, it can be just a minor inconvenience rather than a disaster. Especially with a head and the Admiral needs it.

One could argue a second engine, too. I lost one just as I was backing out of a crowded marina, with wind and current. I just powered up the remaining engine and was only an inconvenience. It would have been a disaster without that and no time to anchor. I've been on friends boats in similar situations. Now the diesel is much more reliable..... however, my buddy lost his diesel just two days ago and had to get a tow, but it was the first time in ~30 years, so not a bad bet.

What other critical things need backups.... battery, GPS, generator, anchor, starter, water supply, fridge, most of which are easy to backup.

Good thoughts, thx.

 

[Seevee]

Another question...

There's are a few sites that say you need a boat that needs a bridge clearance of less than 19 feet. Yet most boats with any kind of flybridge seem to get pretty close or over that. The Chicago river has a bridge that requires 19'1" of air. Are there a lot of critical bridges to get under?

Just looking at the early 36 ft Grand Banks and they are 23 feet of air. Do those poles, with the dingy winch lower for bridges easily?

Suspect lowering the bimini tops would be easy, but the pole look a bit harder. And the ones with a radar arch look next to impossible.

 

[Mule]

Towing ins is dirt cheap. Breakdown or grounding and u have paid for years of it. They will even pull u from ur slip to a repair or haul facility at no additional cost

 

[Seevee]

Yes, but I shouldn't have to insure against those with no liability and shouldn't have to pay more because they don't pay their share. Look at what uninsured motorists have done to your auto insurance, if you have it.

I've never had an accident that was my fault. Lucky in that respect. However, I've been glad to have my insurer insisting on their insurer paying what they should. And, I have had several claims where my car was parked and run into resulting in significant damage, all when I was under 21 years old, all hit and run, although two of the four were subsequently caught.

BandB,

We have a different view on protection, but that's fine. I'm betting that I'm not going to need insurance. If I'm found negligent and hurt someone else, I'll write the check, but I'm sure you know there's tons of folks out there that can't and won't protect you for their negligence. That's life. I choose to live a life where my risk is really low.

There are people that choose high risk lives and end up in a scrape many times, accidents, fights, trouble with the law, etc., etc. And there are others that choose low risk lives, and have a change of getting thru life without an issues with a 99.99% chance, and that's the group I choose to be in. So far, batting 100 and betting on it staying that way.

Most people are WAY over insured.

 

[Seevee]

Towing ins is dirt cheap. Breakdown or grounding and u have paid for years of it. They will even pull u from ur slip to a repair or haul facility at no additional cost

Well, it's $150 a year and I had it for 5 years and never needed it. Those premiums would have easily paid for a tow.

Now, when you have a break down, and you have cash for a tow, vs. someone who has already paid for insurance, who do you think they cater to first?

I've had friend with insurance that have waited FOUR hours for the tow boat after they towed the guys who had cash in their pocket. If they don't grab the cash guy, the competitor will.

Food for thought.