Boat search for the Loop

[Seevee]

Another thought on towing insurance....

We have a group of us that boat together, meet up and hang around, all within ~3 miles on the water. Boats from singles/twins, inboard/outboard, cruisers, trawlers, pontoons and we all agree to help each other if stranded. Sundancers, Bertram, Grand Banks, Grady, Hurricane and others.

The last time was about 6 years ago... same guy twice and he sold the boat. And just a few weeks ago with my buddies SE trawler... and that's it.... ever. So, in our case of about 15 boats, none of us would really benefit from insurance.

Just another perspective.

 

[cappy208]

The Loop 19' height restriction is met generally by lowering antennas and biminis. This is the Erie Canal max ht (but exiting at Oswego). If you want to go all the way to Buffalo it's 16'. But, even then the Canal is variable in freshette and storm conditions.

Sailboats all transit with masts on deck.

 

[Gordon J]

Agree mostly

Bill,

That's probably true, but never been asked or heard of that... yet. Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them? And there's other situations where a business or entity wants to see your insurance (and other things). I tend to avoid them. So far, not an issue.

In 18 years of boating, I have never been asked, except in our home marina.

Gordon

 

[psneeld]

Becoming more popular on the ACIW.

Have had about a dozen ask now.

Usually only if more than one night...then all you do is call your insurance company and the will fax/email what is required. Good news is if you call for a reservation, they tell you up front so a call to the insurance company can get the ball rolling that day.

For one marina, I had to up my liability to $500,000.

 

[smitty477]

Our goal was to get under 15'6" so we could do the entire canal system as well as visits sites at Lake Champlain and up the CT river.
If you are headed the full route through the Tenn Tom area you will also see a need for a larger fuel range - just a few examples of route requirements.
Knowing what your cruising goals are now will allow you to select the best boats for that need.

 

[smitty477]

Insurance...
We often boated in a 'paper' cruising club of 55+ boats with about 30 of them being very active. Many cruises were completed with at least two dozen boats hitting the same ports and/or anchoring out in larger groups for a night or two along the way. On one anchor out in 2014 there were 6 boats on a heavy mooring ball on a one night stay over along the route - a very peaceful night. One of the older kids (about 12) from one boat somehow slipped and fell an another boats swim step returning to her boat. The leg fracture left a bine sticking out and a lot of damage and she was then quickly moved to shore and then airlifted to a local hospital. To this day she is still getting skin grafts and follow on work to try and restore her ability to walk without a limp.
A peaceful night , a normally simple fall, and then a huge mess of injury and damage followed on by very large insurance issues and claims.
You never know some things about boats but they are anything except low risk.....

 

[smitty477]

Car/truck insurance....


Luckily I have never had an accident that was in any way caused by my operations.
On July 6th 2016 I was not so lucky driving my 2013 crew cab pickup on a lightly used two lane rural road at 30 mph on the way home as I always do.
From the corner of my eye I see a larger pickup heading towards my pass rear side from a private driveway at higher speed - no time to react the pass rear door get hit spinning my truck 270 degrees. It is curious to note that there is no continuation of that side road to where my drivers side was at the time so if I was not there it appears he would have ended up in the 'woods' over a heavy fence. A stone mason business is very near to the corner where he was existing and so there was both witness's as well as some video tape from the mason yards cameras.
The police were there within a few minutes and an ambulance was there not too much later. The rear end of my pickup was driven a few feet back and up into the bed on the pass side. The driveshaft was laying on the road, axle was bent, transfer case was cracked etc etc - it was a mess. I did not seem too bad with just a slight concussion from the side widow and a sprained knee that did not allow me to fully walk on.
The other driver was uninsured and besides that ticket also received 4 others for various issues.
Costs to repair the damages to my truck was just about equal to 18 years of premiums.
Costs for the rental car and a number of hospital and doctor bills is not fully completed yet but it is in excess of 8 years premiums to date so far that I know.
My insurance covered this "un-insured" motorist event fully so far.
Since he did not have insurance he was issued a minimum NY fine of $1,500 on the spot that was later raised to $4,000 - that plus the 3 other tickets were well over $5,000 and a mandatory loss off license for at least one year.
My insurance company has now made a claim against his assets (house) for the costs associated with the accident as well as the costs associated with managing the affair of at least $30,000 so far but their is no limit to what may be added if other medical issues arise.
So , less than 6 weeks ago here is the story of someone who tends to be a 'low risk' user of motor vehicles.

 

[BandB]

Insurance...
We often boated in a 'paper' cruising club of 55+ boats with about 30 of them being very active. Many cruises were completed with at least two dozen boats hitting the same ports and/or anchoring out in larger groups for a night or two along the way. On one anchor out in 2014 there were 6 boats on a heavy mooring ball on a one night stay over along the route - a very peaceful night. One of the older kids (about 12) from one boat somehow slipped and fell an another boats swim step returning to her boat. The leg fracture left a bine sticking out and a lot of damage and she was then quickly moved to shore and then airlifted to a local hospital. To this day she is still getting skin grafts and follow on work to try and restore her ability to walk without a limp.
A peaceful night , a normally simple fall, and then a huge mess of injury and damage followed on by very large insurance issues and claims.
You never know some things about boats but they are anything except low risk.....

This is the type accident common at one's home too. A freak accident, something no one would have anticipated, and the person injured being forced to file against you and your insurance. The thing is too that if it was at my home, even if I had no fault, I would want to see that the injured person was fully taken care of either by their insurance or mine and got all the treatment they needed without being bankrupted.

 

[BandB]

Car/truck insurance....


Luckily I have never had an accident that was in any way caused by my operations.
On July 6th 2016 I was not so lucky driving my 2013 crew cab pickup on a lightly used two lane rural road at 30 mph on the way home as I always do.
From the corner of my eye I see a larger pickup heading towards my pass rear side from a private driveway at higher speed - no time to react the pass rear door get hit spinning my truck 270 degrees. It is curious to note that there is no continuation of that side road to where my drivers side was at the time so if I was not there it appears he would have ended up in the 'woods' over a heavy fence. A stone mason business is very near to the corner where he was existing and so there was both witness's as well as some video tape from the mason yards cameras.
The police were there within a few minutes and an ambulance was there not too much later. The rear end of my pickup was driven a few feet back and up into the bed on the pass side. The driveshaft was laying on the road, axle was bent, transfer case was cracked etc etc - it was a mess. I did not seem too bad with just a slight concussion from the side widow and a sprained knee that did not allow me to fully walk on.
The other driver was uninsured and besides that ticket also received 4 others for various issues.
Costs to repair the damages to my truck was just about equal to 18 years of premiums.
Costs for the rental car and a number of hospital and doctor bills is not fully completed yet but it is in excess of 8 years premiums to date so far that I know.
My insurance covered this "un-insured" motorist event fully so far.
Since he did not have insurance he was issued a minimum NY fine of $1,500 on the spot that was later raised to $4,000 - that plus the 3 other tickets were well over $5,000 and a mandatory loss off license for at least one year.
My insurance company has now made a claim against his assets (house) for the costs associated with the accident as well as the costs associated with managing the affair of at least $30,000 so far but their is no limit to what may be added if other medical issues arise.
So , less than 6 weeks ago here is the story of someone who tends to be a 'low risk' user of motor vehicles.

This is a great example. Now, for many nothing like this ever happens and I hope it doesn't for me. And, like all insurance, the best circumstance is I never recover the premiums. I look at it as win/win. If I need it, then it's there. If I don't need it, then I was fortunate. My home is insured against fire. I don't look at it as me losing if I don't have a fire.

Yours is still a relatively small claim. What if a death involved and millions of dollars? Take the above example of the 12 year old's injury. Had the child hit wrong and died, not only would you all be dealing with that tragedy and the emotions of it, but also the legal ramifications.

These are the types of events that destroy families financially, even wealthy families. I've seen businesses have to close over one major accident. I've seen many individuals sued and the moment they lost the case, they'd file bankruptcy as they clearly could never pay what the verdict was. So, they lost everything they had except their home and perhaps a significant part of their future earnings too.

 

[Cottontop]

Some people think you should only buy insurance if you think you'll come out ahead. Not me, I hope I never need the coverage I have.

Most people never have big claims. Sure, that's why insurance companies make money. But every once in a while, insurance keeps you from losing everything you've spent your life working for. If you're thirty, maybe that's not so much, and you can make it again. When you're sixty, different perspective.

And for the poster who says he'll just write the check, well, when the day comes, I'll bet not. I'll have to spend a couple of years in court, and then try to enforce a judgment. And hope you really can write the check, if forced to. So I have to protect myself from you. Insurance.

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm betting that I'm not going to need insurance. If I'm found negligent and hurt someone else, I'll write the check, but I'm sure you know there's tons of folks out there that can't and won't protect you for their negligence.

And for the poster who says he'll just write the check, well, when the day comes, I'll bet not.

The potential fine for a fuel spill is the one that I worry about most. I couldn't write a check for a million $$ or whatever...

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

Chris...just sink or hit a light oil barge where there is a lot of tidal current.

Never hit something with asphalt or crude.

Other than that...out of hundreds of salvages..I don't think I have ever heard of "environmental cleanup" charged other than a few oil diapers and a couple man hours of labor. The other way is a pump out of the sunken vessel if the USCG determines the fuel or oil left onboard is an environmental threat.

Probably why the insurance companies have been raising the limits so much and not really charging that much more. They just raised mine to $800,000, no additional charge.

 

[ranger58sb]

Other than that...out of hundreds of salvages..I don't think I have ever heard of "environmental cleanup" charged other than a few oil diapers and a couple man hours of labor. The other way is a pump out of the sunken vessel if the USCG determines the fuel or oil left onboard is an environmental threat.

Probably why the insurance companies have been raising the limits so much and not really charging that much more. They just raised mine to $800,000, no additional charge.

Slightly reassuring...



-Chris

 

[Seevee]

This insurance thing is only a risk benefit equation. If you can't afford the risk, buy the insurance. If you can then perhaps it's not a good deal.

Overall, I'd bet the amount the insurance companies pay in claims is in the 30 to 40% of premiums. Where's the insurance experts?

With those odds, you're paying a HUGE premium to support their overhead, profit, commissions, big buildings and the group that doesn't want to pay claims. Not for me.

The exceptions have been posted but for a judgment, one has to be negligent. A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent? And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent? Don't get me wrong, I feel for the kid and others that get hurt, but if it's their fault, so be it.

Sure, the insuring companies settle these because that's the cheapest way out. I'd bet that there's not one person on the forum that has had a million dollar settlement against them... period. (Ill stand corrected if someone proves otherwise).

The risk is SO low, that a prudent person could easily avoid it.

However, if one purchases a cheap liability policy, they at least get the lawyer paid for, and nothing wrong with that.

Whatever works for you.

 

[smitty477]

"A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent?"


In the case I cited it was quickly determined that the owner of the boat where she fell was responsible. The costs of claim moved above $100,000 within the first year - not sure where they went after that as I have not asked.


"And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent?"
As I said in the post - he was determined to be negligent in the PO report and with the video. As mentioned he currently has a lien against his home as the case progresses but the claims could have easily been much larger dependent upon who was in my truck at the time and the extent of injuries.


How do you drive cars and truck in Florida without auto insurance? It is required by law there is it not?

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Yes, and yes.

-Chris

What he said. ^

 

[psneeld]

If a person trespassing on your property can sue you....and actually win....

Not sure you can apply the "negligent or not" theory too hard.

 

[Mule]

I classify Dr.s (they will kill you), Lawyers ( they will break you) and insurance (w/o it others will break you) all in the same category. No one can make you their customer. If you do not use them and their services properly you may very well wish you had.

 

[Donsan]

This insurance thing is only a risk benefit equation. If you can't afford the risk, buy the insurance. If you can then perhaps it's not a good deal.

Overall, I'd bet the amount the insurance companies pay in claims is in the 30 to 40% of premiums. Where's the insurance experts?

With those odds, you're paying a HUGE premium to support their overhead, profit, commissions, big buildings and the group that doesn't want to pay claims. Not for me.

The exceptions have been posted but for a judgment, one has to be negligent. A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent? And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent? Don't get me wrong, I feel for the kid and others that get hurt, but if it's their fault, so be it.

Sure, the insuring companies settle these because that's the cheapest way out. I'd bet that there's not one person on the forum that has had a million dollar settlement against them... period. (Ill stand corrected if someone proves otherwise).

The risk is SO low, that a prudent person could easily avoid it.

However, if one purchases a cheap liability policy, they at least get the lawyer paid for, and nothing wrong with that.

Whatever works for you.

You are so lucky you don't live in Dade County or Southeast FL! They regularly run TV ads where purported victims (with no signs of injury whatsoever) scream testimonials that "Shyster XYZ got us $X,XXX,XXX". And if you don't watch TV, that is okay because road signs are plastered with the same claims. And there are a legion of Shyster XYZ's waiting for you to call with your injury.

Disclaimer - no longer live in Southeast Florida.

 

[BandB]

You are so lucky you don't live in Dade County or Southeast FL! They regularly run TV ads where purported victims (with no signs of injury whatsoever) scream testimonials that "Shyster XYZ got us $X,XXX,XXX". And if you don't watch TV, that is okay because road signs are plastered with the same claims. And there are a legion of Shyster XYZ's waiting for you to call with your injury.

Disclaimer - no longer live in Southeast Florida.

Rest assured those television ads are nationwide, greater in metropolitan areas simply because more people to target.

 

[Seevee]

You are so lucky you don't live in Dade County or Southeast FL! They regularly run TV ads where purported victims (with no signs of injury whatsoever) scream testimonials that "Shyster XYZ got us $X,XXX,XXX". And if you don't watch TV, that is okay because road signs are plastered with the same claims. And there are a legion of Shyster XYZ's waiting for you to call with your injury.

Disclaimer - no longer live in Southeast Florida.

Donsan,

Yes, they are everywhere. I doubt they could win against an uninsured defendant unless they proved negligence. If they are insured, the insurance company usually takes the cheapest way out, which is often settling with the plaintiff, and giving reason for more frivolous law suits.

We've all seen the ridiculous settlements and awards. Do you thinks any of these get that far if there's no money to collect? A good line of defense is to be broke, or in FL, don't own anything personally. And just live a clean life, avoid the high risk area.... and if one want "personal" protection, liability is pretty cheap.

Also, there's a LOT of people that are in the business of frivolous claims, I know a few. Used to do business with one of them and quit when I found out what he really did. His wife faked a fall onto a friends boat. She was not invited on the boat, and essentially was a trespasser. However, the insurance company settled with her just to have her go away. So wrong! Had my friend not been insured, the frivolous lawyer would have not taken the case.

 

[TJM]

Seevee:

I have a 41' President trawler that fits your needs very nicely for $ 70k. The boat has done the loop a few times and I have personally done the northern half. I purchased the boat in Michigan and piloted it east to southern Ct 5 yrs ago. It has the diesel sipping ( 3 GPH at 8 kts) ford lehmans with 3300 hrs, genny, autopilot, engine synchronizer, twin driving stations, twin state rooms, full salon, diesel fireplace, Newport Dickinson propane fireplace, 10' RIB inflatable with a 2016 4 stroke 20 HP merc outboard. I would even help tag a long with the delivery as the previous owner helped me. What a great way to learn about a boat.
Send me a PM if interested.

 

[smitty477]

Here is a link with some good data on the great loop.
How much clearance you need, fuel range and routes and how to do it on way less costs. Even has a section on the 1st page explaining why you need at least minimum insurance to get into marinas along the way.


Cruising on a frugat budget

 

[BandB]

Here is a link with some good data on the great loop.
How much clearance you need, fuel range and routes and how to do it on way less costs. Even has a section on the 1st page explaining why you need at least minimum insurance to get into marinas along the way.


Cruising on a frugat budget

I love reading Captain John, but do keep a couple of things in mind. It's great for giving you a flavor of the loop and for giving you minimum requirements. However, his thoughts on boats to do the loop are very much not mainstream and not what most loopers would choose. He's gone from enjoying the loop to proving how cheaply he can do it, it seems, and his ideal boat the last I heard would be a small sailboat without the sails.

One other comment. His routing is typical and most loopers try to cover the least distance possible. They miss everything not right on the shortest line then. Keep in mind there are a million ways to do the loop and more places to see than you possibly can. Don't make the objective "doing the loop", but make it seeing the beauty of the world that can be seen while doing the loop.

 

[rwidman]

Go to the "Great Loop Association" website and you'll see that a huge variety of size and type of boats have made the trip. There are many "one and done" boats for sale from past loopers. Good luck

Although I am not a member, I suggest joining the group if you are serious about doing the Great Loop. The folks there have done it or are doing it or considering it. Folks who have actually done it are in a good position to help you select a boat.

Also, there are several books written by people who have done the Great Loop. These are a good read. Find them on amazon.com or your favorite book store. The book store may have to order them though.

You and some others talk about speed. Moving a fairly large boat fast is very expensive and inefficient. Recently I read a review of a boat and the range was four times longer at displacement speed than at about three times displacement speed. That's my personal experience as well except I can't do three or even two times displacement speed.

If you are in a hurry, I suggest driving or flying.

 

[BandB]

Although I am not a member, I suggest joining the group if you are serious about doing the Great Loop. The folks there have done it or are doing it or considering it. Folks who have actually done it are in a good position to help you select a boat.

Also, there are several books written by people who have done the Great Loop. These are a good read. Find them on amazon.com or your favorite book store. The book store may have to order them though.

You and some others talk about speed. Moving a fairly large boat fast is very expensive and inefficient. Recently I read a review of a boat and the range was four times longer at displacement speed than at about three times displacement speed. That's my personal experience as well except I can't do three or even two times displacement speed.

If you are in a hurry, I suggest driving or flying.

Agreed there are many excellent books and the more you read the more different ways to do it you'll pick up on. One will tell you the only way to go is a Catamaran, another will tell you a 27' boat.

As to speed, we did it with speed. The disadvantage is cost. The advantage is it allows you to see more and go more places. Most do not choose to go fast. Now, size of boat is less important to cost than is size of motor. If you're going at displacement speed or just under, the longer boat will have a faster displacement speed.

We found many loop boats on Kindle. Just do a search and they'll come up.

 

[Jeff F]

I love reading Captain John, but do keep a couple of things in mind. It's great for giving you a flavor of the loop and for giving you minimum requirements. However, his thoughts on boats to do the loop are very much not mainstream and not what most loopers would choose. He's gone from enjoying the loop to proving how cheaply he can do it, it seems, and his ideal boat the last I heard would be a small sailboat without the sails.

I met a Captain John disciple a few weeks ago who was 50 miles from completing the loop on a 45 year old Columbia 26 sailboat. He bought the boat for $1,000, threw two 10hp outboards on it - one for a spare - and off he went, towing an inflatable. He took the mast, but only sailed for a brief stretch in the Chesapeake.

 

[BandB]

I met a Captain John disciple a few weeks ago who was 50 miles from completing the loop on a 45 year old Columbia 26 sailboat. He bought the boat for $1,000, threw two 10hp outboards on it - one for a spare - and off he went, towing an inflatable. He took the mast, but only sailed for a brief stretch in the Chesapeake.

It can be done and enjoyed by some. Captain John proves how little it can be done for and each time he seems to try to do it for even less. The answer for most people is somewhere between his method and ours, more moderate than either.

 

[FF]

The key question about the boat , is , are you comfortable?

 

[Seevee]

Lots of good ideas.

As for boat shopping, I'll probably raise my ante to perhaps $200k. I might find the boat that would fit our needs for a lot less, but I'm a bit nervous of too old of a boat. While it might make sense to get one that's 10 to 15 years old, after they have depreciated a bunch, but still have modern options.

I don't like old things that can break and you can't find parts to fix them.

Some of the old ones are great, and some, if not most have an "old feeling" to them which I don't want. I feel a bargain might be an older (perhaps 20 to 25 years) high quality boat that has good bones that someone took the time and dollars to refurbish it into a modern looking and more comfortable boat.

I have joined the Great Loop Assn, seems like a wealth of info.

Still boat shopping....