Economy and second thoughts...

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jefndeb

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Joined
Jun 11, 2018
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614
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US
Vessel Name
Indigo Star
Vessel Make
2006 Mainship 400
Hello,

Well I jokingly always said to myself that right before I retire (57) and went cruising (Mainship 40) the market will dump and fuel prices will get un-affordable. well......yeah.

I have the boat ready (as I can tell it needs to be) to head north to the Chesapeake area but the budget I worked out no longer is any good...

I had hoped to head north the first week of April but now not so sure.

:hide:
 
Find some place else to save on the cost of cruising. While I don't anchor out to save money, you might find the marina cost per night more than the daily fuel bill. While I like to eat out, it’s certainly cheaper to eat on the boat.

Slow down. Increasing speed on my boat, from 7 to 8 knots increases fuel consumption by 85%. :eek:

When contemplating your life on your death bed, it's unlikely you will decide that staying home instead of living the dream was the right choice.

Ted
 
Find some place else to save on the cost of cruising. While I don't anchor out to save money, you might find the marina cost per night more than the daily fuel bill. While I like to eat out, it’s certainly cheaper to eat on the boat.

Slow down. Increasing speed on my boat, from 7 to 8 knots increases fuel consumption by 85%. :eek:

When contemplating your life on your death bed, it's unlikely you will decide that staying home instead of living the dream was the right choice.

Ted

Exactly!

All it takes is one reason not to go, and then next year another reason, and then another.

And you never go.
 
Study the tide tables. You may find one can save up to 10% of the fuel bill by utilizing the current to shorten the running time.

And as previously stated, slow down a 1/2 knot so the boat is clearly displacing water and not being lifted in any way.
 
There are always a million reasons why you shouldn't or can't do something. And there are always work arounds. Anchor out more. Reduce speed. Have more meals onboard. You're retired. You don't get to do this all over again. It's now or never. The doubts disappear quickly when you sitting there at peace with the world watching the sunset.
 
You know what you want.

You planned the boating part.

Your reason for hesitation is the market and money.

Not just for 2022 but for future retirement years you need a financial plan you have CONFIDENCE in. The market will have serious down years every so often, so you need a financial plan you feel good about.
 
Hello,

I have the boat ready (as I can tell it needs to be) to head north to the Chesapeake area but the budget I worked out no longer is any good...

:hide:

Work out anther budget. If you're not flexible you'll break.
 
Work out anther budget. If you're not flexible you'll break.


Agreed. Plans, travel distance and destinations can all be adjusted to fit a new budget. If things are expensive for a while, you keep travel distances shorter and stay in places that can be done less expensively. And save the other places for when there's extra money available or costs are lower.
 
There are always a million reasons why you shouldn't or can't do something. And there are always work arounds. Anchor out more. Reduce speed. Have more meals onboard. You're retired. You don't get to do this all over again. It's now or never. The doubts disappear quickly when you sitting there at peace with the world watching the sunset.

Yep!
 
Well I jokingly always said to myself that right before I retire (57) and went cruising (Mainship 40) the market will dump and fuel prices will get un-affordable. well......yeah.

I have the boat ready (as I can tell it needs to be) to head north to the Chesapeake area but the budget I worked out no longer is any good...

I had hoped to head north the first week of April but now not so sure.


Just run the boat below max hull speed and get on with it. Your boat is well suited for that, anyway.
Somewhere between 2-4 GPH? Fuel costs won't be a huge deal for you.

(I know it's easy for me to say that, about your wallet... but we've done that trip -- previously with 900 and now 1800 hp -- and our experience is that fuel costs can be managed... by managing horsepower.)

If you intended to hop from marina to marina, THAT will mount up... so anchoring can help you save buck$$ there.

-Chris
 
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I know that we always say that fuel is not a significant cost to cruising, but I never felt good when pumping 1,000 gallons of diesel, even from the commercial docks.

However with diesel in the $4.50+ range it's not such a minor issue anymore. Marinas however have always been a killer. Perhaps not your homeport on a long term annual contract, but short term marina stays for a few days are astronomical.

Your boat will have an efficient cruise speed of 7.0 knots. If you can handle slowing down to 6 knots then so much the better (except in heavy following seas where you'll be slapped around without sufficient prop wash over your rudders).

Like everyone said... anchor out... slow down... eat onboard... and go enjoy your wonderful duly-earned retirement!

BTW I hope you and your wife really like your boat and aren't planning on selling anytime soon. The market is likely heading for a free-fall.
 
Curious what your overall monthly cruising budget is, and what percentage of that is fuel?

To get an idea of what to forecast, I found a few full time cruisers who do a combination of marina and anchor-out, but are not the ultra-austere types. Sailboats were the most similar for our cruising. $3500/mo longterm seemed the most credible. This included all costs - land and annual/bi-annual repairs and maintenance. Fuel isn't a huge percentage, though it can be if your itinerary includes a long distance delivery style plan.

I do believe high fuel costs will affect the sale/resale market. In many ways, the 1973 oil Embargo gave birth to the Taiwan Trawler craze we know and love. But for knowledgeable and committed owners, usage will be adjusted to absorb economic shocks.

Good luck

Peter
 
I know that we always say that fuel is not a significant cost to cruising, but I never felt good when pumping 1,000 gallons of diesel, even from the commercial docks.

However with diesel in the $4.50+ range it's not such a minor issue anymore.

It easy for people to say the fuel cost is insignificant, but eventually it reaches a point where it is significant for almost everyone except the ultra wealthy. For you, $4.50 is a bit concerning, for some maybe it's $5, or $8, or $10. Also remember we often encourage those on a limited budget to buy a boat and enjoy boating, even if they can't afford an expensive one. For those that boat on a small budget, a dollar or 2 increase could be a make or break point for them. I think it's insensitive and smug to blanketly say that the cost of fuel is a minor cost of boating.
 
Study the tide tables. You may find one can save up to 10% of the fuel bill by utilizing the current to shorten the running time.

And as previously stated, slow down a 1/2 knot so the boat is clearly displacing water and not being lifted in any way.

:thumb:

The best measure of fuel consumption is the height of your stern wave. Minimize that and you have the ultimate in economy.
 
It easy for people to say the fuel cost is insignificant, but eventually it reaches a point where it is significant for almost everyone except the ultra wealthy. For you, $4.50 is a bit concerning, for some maybe it's $5, or $8, or $10. Also remember we often encourage those on a limited budget to buy a boat and enjoy boating, even if they can't afford an expensive one. For those that boat on a small budget, a dollar or 2 increase could be a make or break point for them. I think it's insensitive and smug to blanketly say that the cost of fuel is a minor cost of boating.

Thanks NE, we fit the profile of budget trawlers. We definitely aren't boating on an open wallet. I am glad we didn't go with a gas cruiser though.

With our boat the fuel increase is tolerable @ 2 gph or less, so I figure most of my days will be 10 gallons or less used.

The gas increase is definitely more noticeable on a daily basis commuting in my truck.
 
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It easy for people to say the fuel cost is insignificant, but eventually it reaches a point where it is significant for almost everyone except the ultra wealthy. For you, $4.50 is a bit concerning, for some maybe it's $5, or $8, or $10. Also remember we often encourage those on a limited budget to buy a boat and enjoy boating, even if they can't afford an expensive one. For those that boat on a small budget, a dollar or 2 increase could be a make or break point for them. I think it's insensitive and smug to blanketly say that the cost of fuel is a minor cost of boating.

No, it's just the reality of life.

Think of actual cruising patterns for a retiree.

You travel once a week, or maybe even three times every two weeks.

Six travel days a month. Figure 70 miles per travel day.

420 miles a month.

A 50' twin engine SD boat will get around 1.5 nmpg or better at displacement speeds. Most boats here on TF, especially the smaller ones will get over 2.0 NMPG

210 gallons of fuel per month and that is a very over estimated amount for most cruisers.

Fuel was not free before. It has less than doubled and I doubt it will rise much higher for long.

So figure $1,100 a month in fuel with less than half that as unanticipated cost.

Now look at the cost of transient moorage. $1.0 to 2.0 per foot per day.

Fuel is a small portion of overall cruising costs, and the rise in fuel is not a deal breaker for all but the very most budget minded cruisers. That segment of the cruising world is already in a small sailboat for budget reasons anyway.

Sorry, but for the average power boat cruiser the increase in fuel prices cannot break the budget, and if it does then perhaps the budget was too tight to be a reality to begin with.
 
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It easy for people to say the fuel cost is insignificant, but eventually it reaches a point where it is significant for almost everyone except the ultra wealthy. For you, $4.50 is a bit concerning, for some maybe it's $5, or $8, or $10. Also remember we often encourage those on a limited budget to buy a boat and enjoy boating, even if they can't afford an expensive one. For those that boat on a small budget, a dollar or 2 increase could be a make or break point for them. I think it's insensitive and smug to blanketly say that the cost of fuel is a minor cost of boating.
I place myself on the lower end of recreational boating in terms of affordability and budget. I do as much of the maintenance and repairs as I can to keep cost down. I purchased an older boat because that's what I could afford. I don't have all the latest bells n whistles, I just keep her running and in a safe condition. Moorage, insurance, maintenance, repairs and upgrades far exceeds fuel costs. If I couldn't afford today's fuel costs or even double what it is today I'd have to give up the boat. Not because of fuel costs but because I can't afford all the rest of what boat ownership costs. So no, it's not insensitive or smug to say fuel is a minor cost. It's simply true. That said fuel costs do matter to me. This season I will spend a lot more time at 7 kts than the usual 8.5 for a huge savings in fuel burn.
 
Hello,

Well I jokingly always said to myself that right before I retire (57) and went cruising (Mainship 40) the market will dump and fuel prices will get un-affordable. well......yeah.

I have the boat ready (as I can tell it needs to be) to head north to the Chesapeake area but the budget I worked out no longer is any good...

I had hoped to head north the first week of April but now not so sure.

:hide:

Budgets are devices to be utilized, not gospel. The great thing about having one is now you can look at the detail and see what must change and see how much flexibility you have. Our business budget for 2020 sure wasn't right. So did we shut down forever? No, we reforecast and revised and again and again. It's looking at each line and saying, "how much more can I afford?" and "Where can I cut back?" Maybe it is May vs. April, but maybe it's leave the same time, just travel fewer days. Instead of 1 out of 2, perhaps 1 of 2.5. Instead of marina 2 of 7, maybe 2 of 10. Instead of restaurant 1 of 3, maybe 1 of 5. The good thing is you have a starting point to work from.
 
Just run the boat below max hull speed and get on with it. Your boat is well suited for that, anyway.
Somewhere between 2-4 GPH? Fuel costs won't be a huge deal for you.


Re-reading my note... I did NOT at all mean that to disparage your worries.

Instead, I meant to be encouraging you toward reaching your dream!

-Chris
 
JefnDeb,
I sympathize with you. I agree with all of the previous posts except the part about some of the comments being smug and insensitive (the rest of that post is very good). Reality is that generally, fuel costs are a small part of the overall costs of boating, so even with the "relatively" large fuel cost increases this statement is still generally true (although in theory this could change). However, for people on very limited budgets, these increases can still be very troublesome!
The bad news..... and these next statements are not political, just observations and my predictions (and I don't own a crystal ball :)).
Inflation and price increases are most likely going to continue. Most of the more prosperous countries have been on money printing binges for the last 2+ years effectively diluting the value of the money already in circulation, in essence, causing inflation (hopefully not worse). Inflation is basically an insidious form of taxation, as far as Government debt goes. Many factors have influenced general energy prices (lack of development of new sources, lack of new investment, lack of exploration, backlash against pipelines, etc, etc.). Supply and demand dictate a rise in prices for the foreseeable future, especially with the uncertainty in Eastern Europe. Rising energy costs WILL affect the cost of most everything else. For boating that will mean marina fees, insurance, repairs, parts, labour, FUEL, etc. The costs to produce goods, warehouse, and transport goods are going up in a direct relationship to the increasing energy costs. Any shortages and supply chain issues that develop will worsen the situation.
Based on this total mess and uncertainty (and I hope I am wrong), I think that the next decade will not be anywhere near as good (for the average person) as 2010 - 2020 was.
I feel your pain JefnDeb.
 
I'd like to point out that not all boaters are retired and not all boaters spend a lot of time cruising great distances and staying at marinas. So just because anyone's individual cost model shows that fuel costs are a small part of the cost of their boating, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. We have just hit some of the highest prices for gas and oil in our country's history and it's the first week of March. Boating season hasn't even started for many of us. Also, prices normally rise every year as we approach summer, so it's reasonable to expect that unless world events get resolved soon, the worst is yet to come. I still stand by my comments that many boaters facing perhaps twice the cost of fuel as last year will be impacted. As an example, I know many boaters who don't cruise but who often go out fishing. They return home to the same slip every day. Fuel is a big part of their overall yearly spend. Their boats might cost 10's of thousands and not 100's of thousands. You can't just say "if you can't afford the fuel you shouldn't own a boat". Take a wider view of boating as a whole and not just your own situation.
 
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I'd like to point out that not all boaters are retired and not all boaters spend a lot of time cruising great distances and staying at marinas. So just because anyone's individual cost model shows that fuel costs are a small part of the cost of their boating, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. We have just hit some of the highest prices for gas and oil in our country's history and it's the first week of March. Boating season hasn't even started for many of us. Also, prices normally rise every year as we approach summer, so it's reasonable to expect that unless world events get resolved soon, the worst is yet to come. I still stand by my comments that many boaters facing perhaps twice the cost of fuel as last year will be impacted. As an example, I know many boaters who don't cruise but who often go out fishing. They return home to the same slip every day. Fuel is a big part of their overall yearly spend. Their boats might cost 10's of thousands and not 100's of thousands. You can't just say "if you can't afford the fuel you shouldn't own a boat". Take a wider view of boating as a whole and not just your own situation.
I think the point is that keeping a boat has costs. A 40-foot slip with a boat and insurance, diving, maintenance, bottom jobs, etc is going to be in the range of $12k-$15k per year. Most boats (not all) run in the average of 100-hours per year tops. Maybe 500 gallons. And that's a big maybe. Adding another $2/gal - $1000/year - will be felt immediately at the fuel dock, but is a rounding error in the total cost of ownership.

That said, perception is reality. Fear of high operating costs will cause perspective buyers to shy away from the market. Let's face it - many buyers of our types of boats are sailors who are predisposed to fuel costs. This won't help.

Peter
 
Find some place else to save on the cost of cruising. While I don't anchor out to save money, you might find the marina cost per night more than the daily fuel bill. While I like to eat out, it’s certainly cheaper to eat on the boat.

Slow down. Increasing speed on my boat, from 7 to 8 knots increases fuel consumption by 85%. :eek:

When contemplating your life on your death bed, it's unlikely you will decide that staying home instead of living the dream was the right choice.

Ted
This is so true. There is a tendency on some forums to assume that the calculated displacement hull speed is the optimal cruising speed. Now there are certainly some very efficient displacement hulls out there, but most trawlers, need to be a knot or more below that calculated speed for best fuel efficiency. Like Ted, my 49 burns a lot less at 7 knots than at 8. I find it interesting to watch the ETA change on a typical days run of 50 NM, as I change speed, - rarely worth the fuel burn.
 
This is so true. There is a tendency on some forums to assume that the calculated displacement hull speed is the optimal cruising speed. Now there are certainly some very efficient displacement hulls out there, but most trawlers, need to be a knot or more below that calculated speed for best fuel efficiency. Like Ted, my 49 burns a lot less at 7 knots than at 8. I find it interesting to watch the ETA change on a typical days run of 50 NM, as I change speed, - rarely worth the fuel burn.

My boat's sweet speed is 6.5 knots at 1.5 GPH. The next half knot (to 7 knots) adds a half gallon to the fuel consumption. Let me write that again, 1/2 gallon to gain 1/2 knot! From there the next knot costs 1.7 gallons of fuel!

The one caveat I will explain is that when going into significant head seas (at 6.5 knots), the boat lacks enough momentum to maintain speed going into the waves. At around 3' seas, the boat is more efficient at 7 knots.

Having a real time fuel consumption display has made a big difference in understanding where the optimal efficiency speeds are both in calm water and sea conditions.

Ted
 
My boat's sweet speed is 6.5 knots at 1.5 GPH. The next half knot (to 7 knots) adds a half gallon to the fuel consumption. Let me write that again, 1/2 gallon to gain 1/2 knot! From there the next knot costs 1.7 gallons of fuel!

The one caveat I will explain is that when going into significant head seas (at 6.5 knots), the boat lacks enough momentum to maintain speed going into the waves. At around 3' seas, the boat is more efficient at 7 knots.

Having a real time fuel consumption display has made a big difference in understanding where the optimal efficiency speeds are both in calm water and sea conditions.

Ted

Some good points Ted and having a consumption display is a nice tool to have. Not sure if you deal with much current where you are, but does it make sense to speed up some when traveling against a current? My thinking is that at 6.5 knts, a significant current is going to affect your speed over ground and lengthen your time so at some point it might pay to burn more fuel to get out of the current quicker?
 
I think the point is that keeping a boat has costs. A 40-foot slip with a boat and insurance, diving, maintenance, bottom jobs, etc is going to be in the range of $12k-$15k per year. Most boats (not all) run in the average of 100-hours per year tops. Maybe 500 gallons. And that's a big maybe. Adding another $2/gal - $1000/year - will be felt immediately at the fuel dock, but is a rounding error in the total cost of ownership.

That said, perception is reality. Fear of high operating costs will cause perspective buyers to shy away from the market. Let's face it - many buyers of our types of boats are sailors who are predisposed to fuel costs. This won't help.

Peter

Peter, your last paragraph is very true about perception, whether it is reality or not. How many time do we hear current sailboat owners considering a powerboat and their first question is inevitably about fuel burn.

I'd like to point out again that your cost model does not necessarily fit everyone. I am at a private yacht club where a slip is in the $2-3K range. There are no divers because we have a 6 month season. Some members do all their own maintenance and boats are hauled by hydraulic trailer and stored in the club yard. (not all member so this but many do) These folks spend less than $5k in total annual costs and boat on a budget that is less than many of us. Last summer, diesel was roughly $3.50/gal. I'm expecting much more than a $2 jump. A year ago, oil was roughly $50 and now some are saying we could see $200 soon. Gas jumped $0.50 in just 1 week. $10/gal might not be as crazy as it sounds by peak season this year.
 
Some good points Ted and having a consumption display is a nice tool to have. Not sure if you deal with much current where you are, but does it make sense to speed up some when traveling against a current? My thinking is that at 6.5 knts, a significant current is going to affect your speed over ground and lengthen your time so at some point it might pay to burn more fuel to get out of the current quicker?


Yes, speeding up against a foul current can save fuel, at least up to a point. If you run into a steep enough climb in the fuel vs speed curve, then it may not.



But if you're fighting a 2 kt current, speeding up from 6 kts to 8 kts of boat speed will increase SOG from 4 to 6 kts. 33% increase in boat speed for 50% increase in SOG. If your GPH goes up less than 50% in that speed increase, you'll save fuel by speeding up. But if you double your GPH from 6 - 8 kts, then just stay slow.
 
Yes, speeding up against a foul current can save fuel, at least up to a point. If you run into a steep enough climb in the fuel vs speed curve, then it may not.



But if you're fighting a 2 kt current, speeding up from 6 kts to 8 kts of boat speed will increase SOG from 4 to 6 kts. 33% increase in boat speed for 50% increase in SOG. If your GPH goes up less than 50% in that speed increase, you'll save fuel by speeding up. But if you double your GPH from 6 - 8 kts, then just stay slow.

Makes sense, thanks!
 
Peter, your last paragraph is very true about perception, whether it is reality or not. How many time do we hear current sailboat owners considering a powerboat and their first question is inevitably about fuel burn.

I'd like to point out again that your cost model does not necessarily fit everyone. I am at a private yacht club where a slip is in the $2-3K range. There are no divers because we have a 6 month season. Some members do all their own maintenance and boats are hauled by hydraulic trailer and stored in the club yard. (not all member so this but many do) These folks spend less than $5k in total annual costs and boat on a budget that is less than many of us. Last summer, diesel was roughly $3.50/gal. I'm expecting much more than a $2 jump. A year ago, oil was roughly $50 and now some are saying we could see $200 soon. Gas jumped $0.50 in just 1 week. $10/gal might not be as crazy as it sounds by peak season this year.

How much does it currently cost to initially join the private club? Are there minimums on the amount of club 'work' or spend required each year?
 
How much does it currently cost to initially join the private club? Are there minimums on the amount of club 'work' or spend required each year?

I think the initiation fee is $500. There is a work requirement of 12 hours/year. Both pretty trivial in the scheme of things. The $500 is only for the initial application. The work hours are very easy to accomplish in the course of a year, there are lots of ways to earn them. The membership also includes a $500 credit to use at the club restaurant which is BYOB, so $500 buys a number of good dinners during the season. So you could call that a "required spend" as it's built into the membership fee. I don't see that as a burden. There's also a $15 fee for all the ice you can use in a year.
 
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