EPA - May Outlaw 2-Cycle Detroit Diesels??

[FF]

"So while I would not put a Warn winch intended to be mounted on a Jeep on the bow of my boat to use as an anchor windlass,"

Agreed , but they work just delightfully on a hoist to pull our 14Ft Feathercraft Vagabond with 40 hp electric start.

Sure I would prefer it hooked to the on board hyd system , but the hose would cost more than a Warn.

." Misguided confidence often IMHO but confidence nevertheless."

A visit to a boat with a "seacock" that is simply a thru hull with a ball valve stuck on is proof that Marine (and some respected MFG) should not be the source of ANY confidence.

FF

 

[Art]

Wire and electrical connectors are another one.

That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned. I can understand tinning to reduce corrosion/oxidation when the electric items are exposed to actual salt water contact/influence on a boat's exterior, or maybe even below decks in the engine compartment etc that might have salt water bilge evaporation... but, is tinning really necessary inside the basic climate control of salons/staterooms/galley/heads/cabin pilot stations? And, other than outside in actual contact with salt spray's influence... is tinning really necessary, especially on interior wire ends and connectors that are well protected from salt water/air/evaporation influences.

Just wondering!

 

[psneeld]

"So while I would not put a Warn winch intended to be mounted on a Jeep on the bow of my boat to use as an anchor windlass,"

Agreed , but they work just delightfully on a hoist to pull our 14Ft Feathercraft Vagabond with 40 hp electric start.

Sure I would prefer it hooked to the on board hyd system , but the hose would cost more than a Warn.

." Misguided confidence often IMHO but confidence nevertheless."

A visit to a boat with a "seacock" that is simply a thru hull with a ball valve stuck on is proof that Marine (and some respected MFG) should not be the source of ANY confidence.

FF

Exaggly!!

 

[psneeld]

That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned. I can understand tinning to reduce corrosion/oxidation when the electric items are exposed to actual salt water contact/influence on a boat's exterior, or maybe even below decks in the engine compartment etc that might have salt water bilge evaporation... but, is tinning really necessary inside the basic climate control of salons/staterooms/galley/heads/cabin pilot stations? And, other than outside in actual contact with salt spray's influence... is tinning really necessary, especially on interior wire ends and connectors that are well protected from salt water/air/evaporation influences.

Just wondering!

Can't say for sure but in my eperience...10 year old tinned wire cut back an inch still looks new. Untinned wire cut back it's ENTIRE length sometimes is already black around every strand. Now...if properly crimped to begin with...it doesn't really matter as there is no corrosion between the wire and the crimp so the connection remains good...however when the time comes to put a new crimp on...it can be a struggle to get a shiny new connection.

Gross generalization??? You bet...but I have had better luck with tinned wire when working in less than ideal situations.

 

[Marin]

That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned.

Art--- If you feel up to a journey through the archives of this forum you will find at least one fairly recent and rather heated discussion on this very subject. I didn't participate--- my dog knows more about electrical stuff than I do--- but the pros and cons of using tinned wire on a boat were discussed, or argued, at great length as I recall.

 

[RickB]

Can't say for sure but in my eperience...10 year old tinned wire cut back an inch still looks new. Untinned wire cut back it's ENTIRE length sometimes is already black around every strand.

It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning

 

[psneeld]

It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning

Yep...just as I thought...no real right or wrong answer. In the perfect world tinning isn't necessary.

 

[Art]

It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning

TY - RB - Good link i.e. "Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning"

In my young days... I favored watching "Rin Tin Tin" on TV, of the NW Mounted Police! That too has seen it day! lol :lol:

 

[RickB]

In the perfect world tinning isn't necessary.

It's not needed in our world either.

I'll let someone else throw a bone at King.

 

[rwidman]

................ Wire and electrical connectors are another one.
.............................. I'm just fine with buying fasteners and wire and connecters and wire ties and PVC pipe and connectors, sandpaper, blue tape, brushes and a whole lot of other stuff from the Aces, Home Despots, Sears, etc. of the world. At a fraction of what the same components would cost with a marine store bar code on them.

A very big difference.

Sandpaper from Sears is just fine. Same for brushes and even wire ties. SS fasteners may be OK or they may be inferior. I will admit to buying most of my SS fasteners and wire ties at Lowes or a local independent hardware store.

There is a very big difference between the wire or cable and connectors labeled for marine use and the wire or cable and connectors you typically find in home centers or Sears. I only use "marine" wire and cable and connectors. The risk is not worth the few cents or dollars saved. I would be very upset if I paid a technician and found he was using inferior materials.

 

[Marin]

Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.

 

[Art]

Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging is labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.

Yup!

 

[psneeld]

Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging is labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.

Thus the previous comments about knowing what is "really" different or not...a little homework or questions asked is all that is needed most of the time.

This is the third large boat that I have owned that has had a standard house CB panel and CBs. Rusty steel and all.....works just fine and meets all "requirements".

Boaters have heart arracks if you use solid wire on a boat like house romex...yet it isn't illegal...just not acceptable on USCG inspected vessels. Yet there are plenty of boats out there using it. Out of all the boat fires I've seen in 2 maritme careers now...solid wire was never the cause of a boat fire that I either attended or debriefed.

As I said al lot of times...there's a big difference between "unsafe" and non-marine.

Wasn't there just a great link about non-tinned, non-marine wiring?

 

[Art]

One item I question is SS fastner quality of home owner stores; as compared to marine grade SS.

 

[psneeld]

One item I question is SS fastner quality of home owner stores; as compared to marine grade SS.

Unless you compare grades...no telling.
I know the stuff from box stores is inferior...not so sure the stuff from marine stores is better unless you compare aplles to apples.

 

[RickB]

Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways.

Marin is absolutely correct on that, without any room for argument.

I purchase all my own electrical bits and pieces from the same local supplier as every yacht electrical and electronic contractor in this area and nearly every item that is not a specialty marine component such as a battery selector switch is the same as I can find at the auto parts store, Sears, Home Depot, or Radio Shack, but at much higher cost.

If I compare the same parts with West Marine's offerings, a simple nylon sheathed ring terminal for example at my source costs 10 cents. At WM, it costs 49 cents because it is "marine" and comes from a "marine" source. The same item from Radio Shack costs around 16 cents. I can tell you that if a manufacturer of ring terminals produced a superior version for the boating consumer they would have to cost a hundred dollars. That is just a simple aspect of manufacturing costs.

Retail merchants view the recreational boater the way De Beers looks at a kimberlite pipe, they don't need a lot of volume, just a steady supply of Kool-Aid drinking believers is enough to make enormous profits.

 

[FF]

"Unless you compare grades...no telling.
I know the stuff from box stores is inferior...not so sure the stuff from marine stores is better unless you compare aplles to apples."

The boat store is not the place to purchase fastiners if you want to know what you are getting.

A dist is the only source you can be sort of sure of.Unless its high priced aircraft , where a phoney/mislabled chinese knock off may be the source.

For Silicone bronze (far, far superior to SS underwater) a specialty shop like Jamestown would be OK.



FF

 

[Larry M]

...Boaters have heart arracks if you use solid wire on a boat like house romex...yet it isn't illegal...just not acceptable on USCG inspected vessels. Yet there are plenty of boats out there using it. Out of all the boat fires I've seen in 2 maritme careers now...solid wire was never the cause of a boat fire that I either attended or debriefed.

As I said al lot of times...there's a big difference between "unsafe" and non-marine.

Wasn't there just a great link about non-tinned, non-marine wiring?

Your right, you can use solid wire but why? How much money actually gets saved by not using wire that at least meets UL 1426, Electrical Cable for Boats?

Solid wire may not cause a fire, but it can lead to electrical gremlins with connections at breakers and/or devises over time. I think the boat owner who uses solid wire would pay for it later during a survey and/or with a prospective buyer.

 

[rwidman]

Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants. .

If you believe this guy, fine, follow his advice. I know people who have worked in a field for thirty years or more and have been doing things "wrong" the entire time.

But, do this: Go to Radio Shack and pick up a pack of crimp connectors. Take some Ancor brand connectors with you. Now compare the two. Actually, the Radio Shack connectors are so thin and poorly made that you shouldn't even have to have the good ones to compare them to.

And, just because parts are made by the same manufacturer doesn't mean they are made the same. One day they make the good ones, the next day they make the cheap ones.

 

[rwidman]

An automobile starter from the auto parts store is much less expensive than a "marine" starter. It looks the same and serves the same purpose. Would you install one on a gasoline powered boat?

 

[psneeld]

An automobile starter from the auto parts store is much less expensive than a "marine" starter. It looks the same and serves the same purpose. Would you install one on a gasoline powered boat?

No, I certainly wouldn't....

Some of us KNOW the difference and wouldn't do it for safety reasons...but WE also know when and where many items aren't a SAFETY issue and we save time, money, etc...etc by not blindly following the mainstream marine mentality...as WE have the experience to know better.

 

[psneeld]

An automobile starter from the auto parts store is much less expensive than a "marine" starter. It looks the same and serves the same purpose. Would you install one on a gasoline powered boat?

Then again I might if the auto parts guy showed me where it was EXACTLY the same as the marine version without the certification label and half the price...AND before I installed it, I would probably check with the manufacturer's tech people to make sure it met the safety standard.

You are right about cheaper terminals...but you have to compare the apple with apple stuff the rest of us are talking about...

 

[RickB]

An automobile starter from the auto parts store is much less expensive than a "marine" starter. It looks the same and serves the same purpose. Would you install one on a gasoline powered boat?

When the part number is the same such as a Delco 1998317 starter for a Mercruiser 3 liter inboard that sells at the marine store for $235 vs the Delco 1998317 that truck owners buy at the auto parts store for $135?

... in a heartbeat.

You just have to know what you are looking at and know how to do a little bit of simple research. Boating writers and the boating magazines sell a lot of very expensive Kool-Aid to an audience that is thirsty for confirmation that their needs are very different than other's.

 

[Marin]

But, do this: Go to Radio Shack and pick up a pack of crimp connectors. Take some Ancor brand connectors with you. Now compare the two. Actually, the Radio Shack connectors are so thin and poorly made that you shouldn't even have to have the good ones to compare them to.

The point isn't that all crimp connectors are made the same by the same manufacturer. Of course there will be cheap stuff, medium stuff, and good stuff. But in each case the product can be "aimed" at any market the manufacturer or distributor want simply by altering the packaging, color, etc.

I would hope that someone shopping for good electrical components for a boat (or anything) would have the good sense to look at a cheap, crappy connector at Radio Shack and know that it was not suitable for the application.

But when the breaker sold at the marine store is virtually identical, even down to the manufacturer's model number, to the same breaker on the shelf in the hardware store except for the packaging or perhaps the color of plastic used but has a price two or three or more times higher, I would think anyone with common sense would realize what's going on here.

Obviously you have to pick and choose your categories. In the case of a quality circuit breaker, buying the one at Hardware Sales for $a.aa instead of the exact same breaker (but in black plastic) at Acme Marine Electric for $z.zzz makes sense.

Buying a cheap, flimsy, under-counter RV or apartment refrigerator vs a stainless steel Isotherm may not make sense despite the huge price difference.

When I asked the owner of the marine electric store a long time ago why he bothered to carry items like the "marine" circuit breaker he'd shown me along with the exact same breaker sold at the hardware store, he said that he carries a stock of the "marine" versions of these components for the customers he gets that will only buy something for their boats that is labeled "marine" These people, he said, firmly believe that, regardless of whether it's a screw, toggle switch, circuit breaker, terminal strip, etc., if it doesn't say "marine" on the packaging it's not suitable for use on a boat. There are enough people like that, he said. to make it worthwhile to stock these items because the profit margin is so high.

 

[FF]

"to make it worthwhile to stock these items because the profit margin is so high. "

Ill say. When we were a listed OEM the discount was 50% +10% +2% for hardware.

So a Meriman List $100 item cost us under $45 if we pre-paid.

Paint is the best for huge discounts!!

FF

 

[expat]

Wow , Really off topic now.

 

[psneeld]

Wow , Really off topic now.

Go back and find the first person who took it off topic and take it up with them...pretty common on these forums..probably someone who attacked California for their laws or something...

 

[BruceK]

They are all actually AfterEffects jobs using elements from highdef video projects I directed on the south island of New Zealand. AfterEffects is amazing. You can make a rainy day look sunny and visa versa...you can even use it to remove things like sperm whales attacking and sinking California-based boats, something that was going on in the foreground of a couple of these shots.

The south Island of New Zealand has stunning accessible alpine and lake scenery to rival most places in Europe. The north island Bay of Islands is a spectacular cruising ground. Both worth a visit.
Whales travel the east coast of Australia twice a year; Sydney is celebrating a whale calf born in the harbour, Mum and the kid seen frolicking near the Opera House. Priceless! Just don`t tell the Japanese whalers. BruceK

 

[FF]

"Wow , Really off topic now."

The purpose of these boards is to share information , and perhaps understand something related you didn't know before.

If you wish to stay strictly ON TOPIC , may I suggest a dictionary?

FF

 

[BruceK]

"Wow , Really off topic now."

The purpose of these boards is to share information , and perhaps understand something related you didn't know before.

If you wish to stay strictly ON TOPIC , may I suggest a dictionary?

FF

Dictionary/Thesaurus not needed; just following and contributing to an evolving "off topic" discussion as members take 'topics" where they like. Surprisingly, it has yet to turn to anchors. BruceK