heat choices

[magna 6882]

Hello

Knowing what you all know now what choice of heat would you choose

1 propane forced air with one thermostat
2 propane units with 2 thermostats
hydronic with three thermostats
Heat pump for ac
Reversable heat pump


This would be a np45 working Puget sound region.
Thanks for helping me.

 

[Ken E.]

Diesel hydronic and forced air are popular choices in PNW. Suggest you investigate Wabasto, Hurricane, Espar, Wallas, Kabola. I have Espar hydronic and it works well.

 

[Russell Clifton]

Hydronic heat can be plumbed into your hot water tank (need the correct type of tank), and into your main engine(s) Also keeps the engine room nice and toasty all winter. Also only need to run small diameter heater hose instead of large 3"-4" hot air ducting.

 

[magna 6882]

Any thoughts on air conditioning. A friend who has been boating 30 years says no big deal but his wife said dont by a boat without it.Her complaint was the few days we do see 90 gets very uncomfortable is a boat and no wind.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I have a 43 foot boat with a diesel drip stove in the main cabin for space heat. It is highly satisfactory. Silent, economical, homey fireplace effect. Would not replace it. period. Only improvement for winter use might be one of the little bulkhead versions of the same technology added for the aft master's sleeping cabin.

 

[Comodave]

Are there even propane heating systems approved for boats?

 

[Spinner]

Diesel heat (forced air or hydronic). I’ve never had air conditioning; for the few really hot days, I have 12V fans installed in both staterooms, and movable fans for salon/pilot house.

It cools off in the evening after all....

 

[magna 6882]

Are there even propane heating systems approved for boats?

Good point i just assumed they were propane.

 

[Comodave]

I don’t know if there are or not. I am not aware of any but we just use reverse cycle on the A/C.

 

[tiltrider1]

Yes, there are forced air propane heat systems approved for boats. They are great for the boat that might run a heater once a year. Not a good option for the PNW.

Reverse cycle heat pumps are very efficient. Possibly the cheapest way to heat larger boats. Hydronic diesel heat is the nicest heat. Dickerson stoves or bulk head heaters are very cost effective on smaller boats.

AC in the PNW? Well that depends on the boat, how many windows and how much ventilation. On my boat AC is a must even in the PNW. My last boat had no need for AC.

There is simply not enough data to answer the OP’s questions but I doubt that propane is the right decision. I just can’t rule it out with out more data.

 

[tiltrider1]

I doubt you would find propane heat on a NP45 but I can’t guarantee that. Most likely you were looking at a diesel forced air heater. More zone control is usually better than fewer but not if meant two diesel furnaces rather than one.

We are also in one of those very personal subjects. Heat pumps are more complex than diesel furnaces but tend to have fewer issues. However when they do have issues it tends to be more expensive. Some heat pumps are noisy, some diesel furnaces are noisy. Heat pumps need shore power or generator to work. Diesel heaters can soot up the boat in the wrong wind. A either or situation is unacceptable to me. I have 3 heat pumps, 2 resistance heaters and a hydronic diesel heat system. They all have there place.

 

[magna 6882]

I will talk to trevor more when he gets back from vacation.

 

[Steppe]

Our NP52 has both air conditioning and a Kabola diesel hydronic heater. In my experience in the PNW between Olympia and SE Alaska there is really no need for air conditioning. You will have maybe a week of really hot weather and it always cools off at night. Open windows and 12 volt fans work for the rare 90 degree days.

Propane. The only units I have seen are small, wall hung Dickinson heaters. Only large enough to heat one cabin. Also, propane adds moisture to the air so not a dry heat.

Air conditioning. To use air conditioning you will need a minimum of 50 amp shore power or run the genset while heating or cooling the boat. You can heat with these units but if the sea water temperature is too cold you won't get good heat output. Plus my Cruisair units are very loud.

Forced air units by Webasto or Espar put out lots of heat quickly but for a 45 foot pilothouse boat you would probably need at least two heater units. Plus they are noisier than hydronic heaters.

As others have suggested, for cruising the PNW, you will want a hydronic diesel heater with three or four thermostats. Kabola is excellent. Webasto, Hurricane or Olympia are other alternatives. Olympia is the boiler that Sure Marine in Seattle sells. Make sure whatever system you decide upon has enough Btu's to heat the size of your boat.

The hydronic solution will use less energy, they are much quieter and provide the option of also heating your hot water. And while at anchor in some quiet cove you don't need to run your generator in order to heat the boat.

 

[ben2go]

Diesel combination unit with hydronic heating through out the boat tied into the engine and generator. With a Refleks or Dickson diesel back up heater. I'm building a Dutchy and have talked at length with people that live on Dutch cruising barges and this is what they have. The only difference is they use a solid multi fuel stove onboard (coal, wood, pellets, corn), unless they travel more open waters as I plan to. Then most have a diesel stove.

 

[PM]

I know it is not practical, probably unsafe and more than likely just plain not a good idea, but I love wood heat. The new trend in "Tiny Houses" has spawned some really neat tiny wood stoves.

I guess my next best guess would be diesel drip stove.

I wonder if you could buy a pellet stove small enough??

pete

 

[Ken E.]

Any thoughts on air conditioning. A friend who has been boating 30 years says no big deal but his wife said dont by a boat without it.Her complaint was the few days we do see 90 gets very uncomfortable is a boat and no wind.

AC in the PNW isn't necessary, although like Sue said, simple fans in the heat of the day are nice when there's no wind.

 

[DDW]

The problem with propane is you will use a LOT of it, especially in the PNW. It is not practical to carry that much on a 45' boat. Reverse cycle AC is only practical if you are at a powered dock or run your genset most of the time for other purposes. That leaves diesel (either forced air or hydronic) as the only practical alternative. Hydronic is preferred, but more expensive to install.

I have AC on my boat in the PNW, turn it on once or twice a year. The boat came with it, I certainly would not pay to have it installed if it didn't. In fact I removed one of the AC units and replaced it with a dehumidifier, which is much more useful.

 

[firehoser75]

Some good advice so far.

My opinion, which talks to our experience, is we want to minimize generator run time for several reasons. One is sound level, both sound level inside our boat and sound level for our neighbours. Another is smell of exhaust fumes. We have been docked beside some boats that run their generator all night even at dock (where being tied near you can't avoid both the sound nor the fumes).
So for us no reliance on electric heat nor reverse cycle, no electric stove, etc. We like propane for the stove.

We have used both diesel forced air heat (current boat) and diesel hydronic (former boat). Both work well. Hydronic has several advantages which include smaller diameter hoses for the runs, and ability to use the furnace for other heating purposes like hot water (again reducing generator time?). Hydronic is more expensive.

Air conditioning in the PNW general area is a personal thing. We don't have it. If we did, there have been a few nights where we would have used it. However, if you travel north most of the time (Broughtons and further north) I would say air conditioning is not needed and just adds to the maintenance (assuming you have a diesel furnace). If you spend all your time Desolation Sound and south, then up to you, but as Sue said, fans help alot when really needed.
If I was having a new build, it would be diesel hydronic heat with thermostats (zones) in all major rooms, for coziness you could add (not needed really) a small diesel fireplace in the salon area (depending on available space for it), and no air conditioning, but I would have several good 12v fans installed in the staterooms and salon. Brands selection for the hydronic unit should be based on reviews, dealer advice, and personal choice.
Good luck

 

[Retriever]

My last boat had forced air diesel and no A/C. The current boat has diesel hydronic and A/C. In the winter, when all-day heat is needed, the hydronic is nice, but I find it too slow to heat up most of the time. I like turning the heat on when I wake up to take the chill off. With the diesel forced air system this worked fine...heat was almost instant and most mornings in spring/summer/fall I could just turn on the furnace and be warm a few minutes later. Same with the A/C on the current boat. The hydronic, though, takes awhile (at least 15 minutes I'd say) to even start blowing hot air.

So, consider how quickly you'll have heat available with various options and if that will work for you.

We use the reverse cycle A/C heat way more than the diesel hydronic, but it's nice to have options. BTW, we run the generator about 3-4 hours a day recently, less is we were cruising normally and underway several hours or more a day. The A/C helps put a good load on the gen.

Oh, one benefit of the hydronic system (at least how this one is set up) is the main engine can heat the loop when underway, so there's lots of free heat and an Everhot supplies endless hot water.

 

[Moonfish]

I agree with the consensus here, especially regarding the supposed "need" for AC in the PNW. There might be 2-3 days a year where you could use it. In our nearly 8 years living aboard and cruising from Olympia to the Broughtons we have not once said aloud "I wish we had AC."

If I were outfitting a new NP45 for heat, I would go with hydronic for the main source. Although Sam has a good point about the slight delay in getting hot air to blow first thing in the morning. Are any of the new hydronic systems capable of programmed starts? I mean, if a coffee maker can do that...

 

[ksanders]

I’m different than most I suppose.

Having had hydronic I prefer forced air.

One of the big reasons is forced air provides for fresh air induction, where hydronic heat exchangers typically do not.

Once I was set on forced air heating, I chose Wallas forced air for several reasons, and the lack of sound is one of them. You do not hear the Wallas units running.

Another big reason is the concept that the Wallas units modulate their heat output to any level between a very low setting, and a very high setting based on the temperature. The thermostat on a Wallas unit is always adjusting the heat output to keep the right temperature. A Wallas furnace rarely shuts down completely, which increases reliability as the startup process is typically where units of any type fail.

This is in contrast with a on/off type of unit where there is a temperature swing of generally about four degrees as the thermostat turns the unit on and off and the unit shuts down, only to restart a few minutes later.

I will admit that one thing I was worried about was domestic hot water when going to forced air, as hydronic as others have reported keeps the water tank hot.

What I found is that the hot water heater actually helps load up the generator. We have a 9 kw northern lights generator onboard, and the 150 amp battery charger typically draws about 20 amps during the bulk charging phase. Having the water heater add another 12 amps to that load helps. We find that with generator running times to recharge the batteries we never run out of hot water from the 20 gallon heater, which is also engine heated.

We also time our generator running to correspond with cooking, and desalinating of water and clothes washing, other daily tasks.

 

[Lepke]

I liveaboard and I usually winter on the Columbia River, but have wintered in Canada in my current boat.
IT came with a hydronic system with radiators. And it was slow to heat from a cold boat. I switched from radiators to individual forced air units (like a car heater). Now when about freezing, I go from a cold boat to 70°+ in about 30 minutes. My system is divided into zones, so I set priorities on what section to heat first, and unused areas are set at lower temps. Closest heating to a house I have found.

 

[Ventana]

I have used electric, propane, and diesel heating in all their forms on boats.
Electric is nice dry heat at the dock or when the genset is on, not very practical off of an inverter. Reverse cycle is more efficient but still a lot of power use.
Propane is not a wet heat like people say, unless you are using the old Cozy Cabin conversion or something like a Mr. Heat. Forced air propane introduces the exact same amount of moisture as force air diesel, none.
For diesel, I love the heat from our current hydronic unit, but hate the complexity and maintenance. I loved the heat and simplicity from the drip heater on our last boat, but it really only works for one or two rooms for each unit.
I think I am going to install a drip heater with a coolant loop on our current boat, that way I can plumb it in to the hydronic system in place. It should do a fair job of heating the whole boat with just the circ. pump power draw, and then be able to turn on the Webasto when we need the extra heat.

 

[mvweebles]

I lived aboard my Willard 36 for several years in San Francisco Bay. I installed a Dickenson 17k btu diesel heater which was prone to back puffing in SFs infamous wind. Not recommended. Someone gave me a reverse cycle AC system that I installed and liked a great deal for heat. Only downside was it took a healthy percentage of my 120vac 30A shore power so had to be careful. But I liked the heat a lot, and on those rare October days where it was hot, AC was nice.

A friend down the dock had a Webasto forced air diesel heater installed. It was great. There are now inexpensive Chinese knock offs that reportedly also work well.

Many people in the PNW report great success with the Dickenson style heater with stovepipe. For me in San Francisco, it was awful. If you have the power, reverse cycle would be my preference. Otherwise, forced air diesel heat.

 

[DDW]

With a decent hydronic system, why not let it run all night? The burner might fire once or twice for a couple of minutes, but if no thermostat is calling for heat it will otherwise be idle. The thermostat for the stateroom zone is within reach of the berth without even sitting up, so I can start it whenever. I get up to a warm boat and ready hot water. The newest ITR Hurricane system you can start it from your phone anywhere in the world, if that turns your prop. My reverse cycle AC takes as long as the hydronic to put out much heat.

 

[Mako]

If I was having a new build, it would be diesel hydronic heat with thermostats (zones) in all major rooms, for coziness you could add (not needed really) a small diesel fireplace in the salon area

I like this but would instead install a solid fuel stove. Not only would it add a wonderful ambiance, but it gives better redundancy via a different fuel source.

 

[ben2go]

With a decent hydronic system, why not let it run all night? The burner might fire once or twice for a couple of minutes, but if no thermostat is calling for heat it will otherwise be idle. The thermostat for the stateroom zone is within reach of the berth without even sitting up, so I can start it whenever. I get up to a warm boat and ready hot water. The newest ITR Hurricane system you can start it from your phone anywhere in the world, if that turns your prop. My reverse cycle AC takes as long as the hydronic to put out much heat.

True. With newer T-stats the system can be programed to run low heat at night and kick up just before get up time.

 

[Frosty]

Propane. The only units I have seen are small, wall hung Dickinson heaters. Only large enough to heat one cabin. Also, propane adds moisture to the air so not a dry heat.

Not advocating for propane heat, but this is a misconception. Or rather, an unnecessary singling out. Fuel creates moisture when burned. Whether or not it adds moisture to the air depends on whether the combustion exhaust is vented or not. So a non-vented propane heat source (say, a stove burner) will add moisture to the air, BUT so would any other non-vented fossil fuel (say a kerosene free-standing heater in your garage).

So a vented (meaning combustion exhaust) propane furnace or heater will add no moisture to the air. A vented diesel, kerosene, or other fuel heater is the same. A non-vented version of any of these will add moisture to the air.

Perhaps this idea comes from the fact that un-vented propane burners are common in the form of stove burners, which are not vented in the same way a typical furnace is.

Electric heaters are an exception and are dry in any form, but then the "fuel" is somewhat "removed" from the heater (stored in some other way).

 

[tiltrider1]

There are forced air propane heaters that look and work just like forced air diesel heaters. The propane ones require much less maintenance than the diesel counterparts. Problem is propane is a very inefficient fuel. It is also very expensive per BTU. They have their place in boating but it’s a rather specific niche.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Are there even propane heating systems approved for boats?

Sure Marine in Seattle sells propane forced air heaters. I don't know about approval. Who needs to approve and if they are approved. Sure doesn't sell dangerous junk. I did talk to them years ago and they advised the systems go through a lot of propane so I decided against.


https://www.suremarineservice.com/Heat/Propex-Propane-Forced-Air-Heaters/