How best to handle strange behavior?

[Marin]

Mark---From your past posts I believe you've had a fair amount of sailing experience on the bay there. What's your assessment of the attitude and awareness of the majority of the sailboaters in your area?

 

[markpierce]

What's your assessment of the attitude and awareness of the majority of the sailboaters in your area?

Generally, very good. Still, last year a sailboat tacked in front of me in the middle of the bay for no apparent reason, and I had to make "emergency" moves to avoid him. I try to give sailboats a wide berth.

While doing a lot of bay racing in the 1960s and day sailing in the 1980s, I never experienced problems with powerboaters that I recall except for a speedboat passing close and intentionally spraying us. Perhaps he thought we needed a cool shower on that hot, still day.

But then, I'd always avoid "the crazies days" of opening day and the Fourth.

 

[jeffnick]

You won't get hold of me on the VHF. A big reason I go boating is to get away from all the 'requests'. You don't need to ask or advise, whatever you want to do out there on the water is OK by me.

 

[psneeld]

For boaters with a fair amount of experience is many waters....

Doesn't matter whether you are an armchair sailor with a stack of mags with all the articles written on this very subject or a cruiser who plys the ICW every year...ANY boater worth their salt has seen or first hand or read about how to properly do a ICW pass. Now of course there's some disagreement and interpretation...of just what is a proper pass......but all in all it all works out to be the same. Pay attention or read the mags...it's not hard. How is it done???? You either know or don't.

Tug and barge on the ICW or entering NY/Philadelphia/Norfolk ports??? We are just speed bumps to them. Talk to a few cappy's...they will tell you that if they run you over....their first beer that day will taste the same. Call them if you want (and I agree that you should) but don't expect a reply...you should but won't always get one. they just assume you know they will run you over so they expect you to behave accoringly...very simple.

Me??? I say fly on by...if there's a wake...I'm ready for it and only lasts a few seconds...if none...so much the better. Back in the East...sailboaters are just as clueless as anyone...MAYBE better read but no more practical experience on the whole. For those that want to talk sailing...remember a lot of trawler owners probably have more experience sailing than most sailors...that's why they own trawlers now..

Wanna know why many boaters blow through no wake zones??? Teach hands on boating or do deliveries with owners aboard for a couple decades...you'll figure it out real quick.

 

[psneeld]

I'll bet you were in Louisiana at the time. Anyway, depending where in La. you are, the traffic in channels changes from 16 to 13 in most places.
A good book to buy is US Coast Pilot for the Gulf of Mex area. Thay have all that onfo and also bridge and locks info including radio freq's and telephone numbers.
If you had used your horn, I seriously doubt he would have heard it.

16 is to be monitored by anyone with a radio on board....thus why there is a scan or DW feature on radios now...commercial guys especially.

13 is almost always monitored by comm traffic country wide as it's where most talk rather than use whistle signals.

Why buy the coast pilot when it can be downloaded for free...

 

[Larry H]

16 is to be monitored by anyone with a radio on board....thus why there is a scan or DW feature on radios now...commercial guys especially.

This is not entirely true. In a zone where there is USCG Vessel Traffic System, such as the Puget Sound, all commercial traffic that is required to report in to Traffic Control is required to monitor the VHF traffic channel. Here in the PNW the channels are 14, or 5A depending on the local area of operation.

If a vessel that is required to participate in the Vessel Traffic System is operating in that system THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO MONITOR VHF 16.

They are required to monitor the Traffic Control channel (either 14 or 5A) and VHF 13. (Bridge to Bridge)

Quote:

Note to §161.12(c): As stated in 47 CFR 80.148(b), a very high frequency watch on Channel 16 (156.800 MHz) is not required on vessels subject to the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act and participating in a Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) system when the watch is maintained on both the vessel bridge-to-bridge frequency and a designated VTS frequency.
End quote

So, calling that large ship about to run you down on VHF 16 will not do you any good. Call them on either VHF 13 or the correct Traffic Control channel. If I need to contact large ships or tug-and-tows is use the VTS channel, as I know the VTS radio control room is listening to the call.

Non-participating vessels, (that's us) are advised to listen only unless an emergency or close quarters situation exists, requiring communication with the commercial vessel.

 

[markpierce]

Tug and barge on the ICW or entering NY/Philadelphia/Norfolk ports??? We are just speed bumps to them. Talk to a few cappy's...they will tell you that if they run you over....their first beer that day will taste the same. Call them if you want (and I agree that you should) but don't expect a reply...you should but won't always get one. they just assume you know they will run you over so they expect you to behave accoringly...very simple.

That's my understanding too on the left coast.

These professionals rolled me hard with their wake. I underestimated the power of their wake and had failed to meet it head on.

 

[psneeld]

This is not entirely true. In a zone where there is USCG Vessel Traffic System, such as the Puget Sound, all commercial traffic that is required to report in to Traffic Control is required to monitor the VHF traffic channel. Here in the PNW the channels are 14, or 5A depending on the local area of operation.

If a vessel that is required to participate in the Vessel Traffic System is operating in that system THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO MONITOR VHF 16.

They are required to monitor the Traffic Control channel (either 14 or 5A) and VHF 13. (Bridge to Bridge)

Quote:

Note to §161.12(c): As stated in 47 CFR 80.148(b), a very high frequency watch on Channel 16 (156.800 MHz) is not required on vessels subject to the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act and participating in a Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) system when the watch is maintained on both the vessel bridge-to-bridge frequency and a designated VTS frequency.
End quote

So, calling that large ship about to run you down on VHF 16 will not do you any good. Call them on either VHF 13 or the correct Traffic Control channel. If I need to contact large ships or tug-and-tows is use the VTS channel, as I know the VTS radio control room is listening to the call.

Non-participating vessels, (that's us) are advised to listen only unless an emergency or close quarters situation exists, requiring communication with the commercial vessel.

In the U.S., Coast Guard regulations require that you monitor channel 16:

"Vessels not required to carry a VHF marine radio (e.g. recreational vessels less than 20m length and commercial vessels under 100 GT carrying less than 6 passengers), but which voluntarily carry a radio, must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radio is not being used to communicate. Effective 2004 if a radio is carried, it must be turned on and set to channel 16 whenever the vessel is underway."

Source: FCC 47 CFR 80.310

Not sure which is most current or both are and because the average recreational trawler IS NOT subject to the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act ...then I think you ARE supposed to monitor it.

Plus for the rest of the time most boaters AREN'T in a VTS...then they are...like the ICW which is where we were talking about anyway...

 

[Tom.B]

Let me play Devil's Advocate on this, if I may. Interesting timing on this. Bess and I got pretty heavily waked last weekend as we came back home to New Bern from the Oriental Boat Show and had a lengthy discussion about wakes, their effects, and courtesy.

First, I'll start with the bottom line. It's a wave. That's all it is. Our boats can handle it and quite a bit more. Can it do damage? Sure, but in open water and even in the ICW, there is room to handle it without incurring major damage. That said, I think we all understand that we are responsible for damages cause by our boat's wake. However, it would be HARD to prove in a hearing, and all the yelling and screaming on the radio won't help a bit. So, we all need to be aware and take steps to secure our stuff onboard because it can, and will, happen at any time. If you boat gets tossed around and you break a lamp, a TV, or drop a bowl of cereal on your new carpet, you have nobody to blame but yourself. (*Note* Personal injury like a fall may be a bit grey, but wakes rarely come as a huge surprise and the Captain should alert the crew should one be on the way. Still, the argument could be made both ways.) I mean, short of swamping or capsizing your boat, I'm not sure you would ever have a claim with a wake in open water. In a marina, that's another topic altogether.

While I think we may want courtesy from all of our fellow boaters, it is a very selfish thing to EXPECT it and even more to feel you deserve it. Thus, being overly pissed off when you don't get it seem like a waste of effort. You really just need to always prepare for assholes of all kinds out there. Everyone has their own agenda and travels through life at their own pace. Some people think they don't owe anyone anything and that their schedule is all that matters to them. And personally, I have to provide a certain amount respect to them for it, but with a side order of caution.

We got waked pretty hard. Drawers fell open, furniture got scattered and Bess got pretty scared, but it was over in a few seconds and all the hailing on VHF 16 probably wouldn't have helped. He's going to do what he wants to out here.

Next time, we'll tie down the furniture (we usually do, but didn't this time), steer a little better to avoid it, and note the name of the vessel for next time. It's just a wave. Our boat can handle it. No since crying over spilled milk (or Merlot as the case may be).

Don't think I am a waker. I am not!... except this one time I made a huge mistake trying to make our bridge opening... but anyway... and I am not justifying it. I just have resolved myself to the fact that I have not earned the respect, nor do I expect respect, from anyone out there. If we get a slow pass, all the better, but is we don't, I just see it as it is. A big wave that might break my TV if I didn't bother to put it on the bed when we cast off.

The freedoms that our boat provides us, sometimes comes at a cost. Motorcycles are the same way. I ride to work on my Concours every day all year-round. I do what we can to make myself as visible as I can and drive as defensively as humanly possible, but with all the beauty that comes with motorcycling, I will always run a huge risk of some dickwad not having enough vision to see me. THEN it's time to pay the fiddler. I will be hurt BADLY. There are always risks you can't control and some you can.

"You can't control other people's behavior, only how you react to it."

Tom-

(*Foot Note* This was written by a yacht owner. We all own boats that can handle about any wake out there. Should the same boat plow through a sunfish regatta or swamp a bass boat, that is a completely different argument.)

 

[Larry H]

psneeld,

I understand that you are discussing the intercoastal and the situation can be different in different areas.

Yes, recreational boaters must monitor VHF 16 when not using the VHF on another channel.

My point is, that the monitoring of VHF 16 by ALL vessels is not a 'universal' rule and there are exceptions.

My opinion is that to be sure of reaching a large ship, or tow, use VHF 13, or the Traffic Control VHF channel if there is one in the area where you are operating.

Here are the areas with Vessel Traffic Systems:
Berwick Bay, Louisiana
Houston/Galveston
Los Angeles/Long Beach
Louisville
Lower Mississippi River
New York
Port Arthur
Prince William Sound
Puget Sound
Saint Mary's River
San Francisco
Tampa

 

[rwidman]

I'll bet you were in Louisiana at the time. Anyway, depending where in La. you are, the traffic in channels changes from 16 to 13 in most places.
A good book to buy is US Coast Pilot for the Gulf of Mex area. Thay have all that onfo and also bridge and locks info including radio freq's and telephone numbers.
If you had used your horn, I seriously doubt he would have heard it.

I was on the Atlantic ICW in South Carolina. Isn't 16 the international hailing channel?

 

[rwidman]

psneeld,

I understand that you are discussing the intercoastal and the situation can be different in different areas.

Yes, recreational boaters must monitor VHF 16 when not using the VHF on another channel.

My point is, that the monitoring of VHF 16 by ALL vessels is not a 'universal' rule and there are exceptions.

My opinion is that to be sure of reaching a large ship, or tow, use VHF 13, or the Traffic Control VHF channel if there is one in the area where you are operating.

Here are the areas with Vessel Traffic Systems:
Berwick Bay, Louisiana
Houston/Galveston
Los Angeles/Long Beach
Louisville
Lower Mississippi River
New York
Port Arthur
Prince William Sound
Puget Sound
Saint Mary's River
San Francisco
Tampa

So, if I hail a tug on channel 16 and it does not resopnd, I'm supposed to try all the channels, one at a time? If 16 isn't "universal", what's the point? If I call a Mayday on 16, the commercial boats won't hear it?

Or did this guy just think I was too insignificant to warrant a response?

 

[Tony B]

...... Isn't 16 the international hailing channel?

Yes, 16 is the International Hailing Channel. There are exceptions when going inland in channels and Louisiana has a few exceptions. Most channels are VHF 13. So, for example, if you are coming onto the Atchafalaya River Channel from the Gulf you will switch from VHF 16 in the open Gulf to VHF 13 for the channel. Most of their bridges and locks are VHF 10. I believe the Mississippi River is something like 67? Dont remember for sure. That is why you should use the "US Coast Pilot" when on the ICW.

 

[Larry H]

rwidman,

I would try VHF 13 after 16 didn't get a response. All the large ships and tugs are required to monitor VHF 13. If they don't respond, they are ignoring you, have the volume turned down, are in the head, or otherwise not exhibiting good seamanship.

If the communication is vital, call the CG on 16 and see if they can get through. The Coasties might not look too kindly on a large commercial ignoring the radio.

Remember, VHF 13 is a 'low power' 1 watt channel, so if you have anything wrong with your radio installation, they might not be able to hear you.

 

[rwidman]

Yes, 16 is the International Hailing Channel. There are exceptions when going inland in channels and Louisiana has a few exceptions. Most channels are VHF 13. So, for example, if you are coming onto the Atchafalaya River Channel from the Gulf you will switch from VHF 16 in the open Gulf to VHF 13 for the channel. Most of their bridges and locks are VHF 10. I believe the Mississippi River is something like 67? Dont remember for sure. That is why you should use the "US Coast Pilot" when on the ICW.

To be perfectly clear, I was in South Carolina (my hone state), not Louisiana. Bridges in SC answer channel 9.

While the Atlantic ICW carries commercial traffic, it is extensively used by recreational boaters. I suspect the vast majority expect to hail or be hailed on channel 16. The rest have no VHF or no clue.

If it happens again, I'll signal my intentions with my (loud) horn and see what happens.

 

[Moonfish]

Let me play Devil's Advocate on this, if I may...

Words of wisdom! Well written and thought out...

 

[Tom.B]

Words of wisdom! Well written and thought out...

Thanks... I was having a "Marin Moment" and thought I was due a long reply.

 

[Marin]

Let me play Devil's Advocate on this, if I may.

I think you hit on a lot of truisms in your post. "Stuff" flying around in your boat is basically your fault for not stowing or securing it. But I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the issue of injury. Yes, the skipper should see a wake coming in time to take some sort of action if necessary. But we know of people who were below decks, in the head or whatever, who did not hear a shouted warning because of the noise in the boat and were subsequently injured, in one case seriously enough to cause the cruise to be terminated. And we know of one instance where a pet was thrown hard to the floor and broke a leg.

So there's a bit more to this "waking" business than just getting tossed around a bit.

 

[JAT]

Down here in the south...FL...all it takes is to call the other boat and remind them that they "are responsible for any damage their wake causes"....that usually does the trick.

But...hey, Bevis and Butthead probably bought boats...and occasionally you will run across them....

I like to fantasize about launching a couple of flares into their boat....but alas, its not PC....so I can't do it.

Some people do it for fun.... I guess they know they are small and insignificant, so you just have to be prepared to take appropriate action to handle the wake....

 

[Egregious]

I think everyone missed the point of the post. I'm not mad about the wake. I'm mad about another trawler crawling up my ass without contacting me via VHF. Communication is key.

 

[Edelweiss]

I would guess most of us don't have to deal with the close quarters of the ICW. Here in the PNW when somebody wants to pass you, they give you some room and go on by either port or starboard. No horn, radio or hand signals other than the usual casual wave. The wake will eventually catch up to you and you have to be prepared to turn back into it at the right moment if necessary.

Now waking people at anchor really sucks and I hate to see that happen. Usually people are more careful about that, but you get the occasional knuckle head, who just plows on through the middle of the anchorage. What can you do, get on the radio and yell at him? If he's that stupid then it is unlikely he is listening to the VHF, more likely listening to Jimmy Buffet maybe.

We were in Fisherman's Bay, Lopez Island, walking down the guest dock and we came upon a boater cleaning crab. They looked a little small and he flipped one over and my girl friend said, "Hey, you can't keep that one, it's a female!" He responded, "How can you tell?" She pointed out the obvious wide tail of a female crab and said, "These all look to small!! Don't you have a WDF Sport Pamphlet, you can't be fishing for crab, if you don't know what you can keep?"
His response, "Well. . . We're from Seattle!" Now do you really think this guy would be listening to 16 on his VHF radio?

Larry B

 

[psneeld]

I think everyone missed the point of the post. I'm not mad about the wake. I'm mad about another trawler crawling up my ass without contacting me via VHF. Communication is key.

Even worse...trying to get everyone through a bridge as quick as possible is a good thing.

Unless you throw your boat into full reverse or run aground, there's no reason to worry about a boatlength between you. Maybe I'm less leary because I tow things for a living. And staying up close once through makes the pass go quicker once through the bridge.

In most stretches of the ICW coming up close to pass isn't unusual but a call on the radio is nice. The question still begs is did you get ansy and call before he did or was he just a jerk??? We don't know because you did call first with an attitude.

 

[Tony B]

.... I'm mad about another trawler crawling up my ass without contacting me via VHF..QUOTE]

Is it possible that he crawled up your ass to read your boats name in order to call you? When I was a crew boat capt in the Gulf of Mex we would sometimes have to crawl up someones ass in order to read their boat name. Some lettering is real small and some have fancy characters that are not easily read.
Also, crawling up someones ass is not always a good description of what is happening unless it is done for intentional harrassment.
It is often necessary at times in order to pass someone quickly. What appears to be crawling up someones ass might just be someone just trying to get up some speed before the passing.
Someone getting up close behind me in a boat does not bother me. Maybe it's because I'm used to being in small channels with a slow moving vessel. I have learned over time that very few people will use the VHF and that is just a fact of life on the water. Don't let it get to you. Just enjoy.

 

[psneeld]

.... I'm mad about another trawler crawling up my ass without contacting me via VHF..QUOTE]

Is it possible that he crawled up your ass to read your boats name in order to call you? When I was a crew boat capt in the Gulf of Mex we would sometimes have to crawl up someones ass in order to read their boat name. Some lettering is real small and some have fancy characters that are not easily read.
Also, crawling up someones ass is not always a good description of what is happening unless it is done for intentional harrassment.
It is often necessary at times in order to pass someone quickly. What appears to be crawling up someones ass might just be someone just trying to get up some speed before the passing.
Someone getting up close behind me in a boat does not bother me. Maybe it's because I'm used to being in small channels with a slow moving vessel. I have learned over time that very few people will use the VHF and that is just a fact of life on the water. Don't let it get to you. Just enjoy.

Think about it...the scenario was they guy was flying up the ICW trying to make the bridge opening...he was waking everyone along his run...he catches up to the trawler in front and hugs their butt to see if the front guy's gonna accelerate to his cruisin' speed once through the bridge... if not...sticking close means he'll be ready for a quick pass. Before he feels the need to call, the front trawler calls and say's do you wanna pass?, he answers sure...then gets an attitude/lecture about being close.

I've seen it hundreds of times...nothing new here. Yes...waking all the marinas, boats etc trying to make the bridge is the big deal...not the coming up close and trying to get by. Ok...a call sooner might have been better...but I would be lecturing the guy about his wake...not the fact of being close behind.

Now if I HAD to make a quick slow down just through the bridge because I was turning into a marina, and COULDN'T maintain course and speed just through the bridge...then I would feel it my responsibility to initiate a VHF call.

All in all, the interaction between the trawlers isn't a big deal in my eyes...just the waking of the appraches to the bridge...if it was even that bad.

 

[rwidman]

.... I'm mad about another trawler crawling up my ass without contacting me via VHF..QUOTE]

............... I have learned over time that very few people will use the VHF and that is just a fact of life on the water. .

Not a "fact of life", but a fact none the less is that by rule, the other boat is required to contct the "stand on" boat and arrange for a safe pass.

We are talking about a pass in a narrow channel here, not a bay or harbor. Some boats do not have good vision from the helm to the rear. Without this required VHF or horn contact, the stand on boat may not know that there is about to be a pass and that he should not change course.

Time for mandatory boater education and licensing for all boaters.

 

[rwidman]

Unless you throw your boat into full reverse or run aground, there's no reason to worry about a boatlength between you. Maybe I'm less leary because I tow things for a living. And staying up close once through makes the pass go quicker once through the bridge.

Well, perhaps there is. Just like when driving a car or truck on land, you may have to make a quick stop. For example, you may spot a (in my area) a dolphin or manatee directly in front of your boat and have to stop quickly to avoid hitting it. The person behind you will take a second or more to realize that you are making a quick stop and may run into you.

And remember, most boats do not have brake lights!

 

[psneeld]

Well, perhaps there is. Just like when driving a car or truck on land, you may have to make a quick stop. For example, you may spot a (in my area) a dolphin or manatee directly in front of your boat and have to stop quickly to avoid hitting it. The person behind you will take a second or more to realize that you are making a quick stop and may run into you.

And remember, most boats do not have brake lights!

As a professional tower...all I have to say to that is....yeah OK...I do it day after day in crowded NJ waters...if you can't follow someone close as described in this scenario and stop/slow your boat in time...then don't follow too close...but most of us can...I see it every day...

You stop for dolphin??? You mean like those animals that ride your bow wake to perfection????

 

[psneeld]

Not a "fact of life", but a fact none the less is that by rule, the other boat is required to contct the "stand on" boat and arrange for a safe pass.

We are talking about a pass in a narrow channel here, not a bay or harbor. Some boats do not have good vision from the helm to the rear. Without this required VHF or horn contact, the stand on boat may not know that there is about to be a pass and that he should not change course.

Time for mandatory boater education and licensing for all boaters.[/QUOTE]

Already so in many states...I taught it for 11 years...whistle signals aren't even really taught as there's not enough time in the course and radio use is barely mentioned.

 

[rwidman]

.......... You stop for dolphin??? You mean like those animals that ride your bow wake to perfection????

Yes I do if one is directly in front of the boat.

I also stop for dogs, cats, and other animals when driving on land. I'm not about killing or inflicting pain on other creatures without a reason to do so.

 

[psneeld]

Yes I do if one is directly in front of the boat.

I also stop for dogs, cats, and other animals when driving on land. I'm not about killing or inflicting pain on other creatures without a reason to do so.

I'll post it again because this is so much fun!!!

You stop for dolphin??? You mean like those animals that ride your bow wake to perfection????