How Much Rode & Chain For New England?

[FWT]

btw, i grew up boating on the long island sound and we didn't need anchors, because we were always running aground

 

[FWT]

Hi Mako,
3-1 scope is fine and despite what you read more or less the norm in the PNW.
But Rocna isn’t the best short scope anchor. They are awesome at long scope but the Manson Supreme bests them for short (normal) scope IMO and in a big comprehensive anchor test. But see them perform here in TF on Steve’s anchor vids.

Yeah, I have watched the anchor vids and have noted a lot of 3:1 tests, and the batch of better modern anchors all worked well with that scope.

At the moment my plan is an Ultra. Which tests well.

Which I will upsize a notch as many do.

And then test what scope and setting procedures work.

And to acknowledge the obvious before the obvious comment, yes more scope is better than less, and more chain is better than less.

 

[Mako]

Does your chain/rope splice run smoothly through the gypsy or do you need to manually attend to it?

 

[skyhawk]

just a question...for brainstorming purposes from an inexperienced person....
My 1st thought was
why not run with the standard chain.... then have onboard someplace a piece of line...maybe 100-200 ft? that you could, if needed be attached to the chain as a rode?
If you come up with a situation where you're heading to a deep anchorage tomorrow or next week, then splice it on.... Otherwise it could be stowed safe a dry for use in any misc or emergency purpose.

Then, I thought....well that wouldn't be available then as an emergency anchor rode....so the question....
how long would a line last stowed at the bottom of the chain locker if never or rarely used...and is it worth that sacrifice vs stowing the rode out of the locker just in case?

 

[OldDan1943]

Well, I have foot switches at the bow. I also have DockMate. I can move to the bow, creep the boat fwd, take up the slack as I move fwd. So yes, I manually attend to it. Without DockMate, I would have to travel to the from the helm to the foot control, back and forth. If I put a switch at the helm, I would not know if the chain was coming aboard properly, I would not know if there was slack in the chain when I brought it aboard.
Soooo, retrieving the anchor and chain without DockMate, it would take 2 people or one helmsman traveling back and forth many times.

 

[rslifkin]

Then, I thought....well that wouldn't be available then as an emergency anchor rode....so the question....
how long would a line last stowed at the bottom of the chain locker if never or rarely used...and is it worth that sacrifice vs stowing the rode out of the locker just in case?

It'll last a while, but it will hold dirt and moisture. If you could build a little shelf off to the side you could put the line there (will depend on locker shape) and let the chain sit separately. Just have to stop retrieving, move the line and continue any time you use it.

 

[FWT]

It'll last a while, but it will hold dirt and moisture. If you could build a little shelf off to the side you could put the line there (will depend on locker shape) and let the chain sit separately. Just have to stop retrieving, move the line and continue any time you use it.

Yep. That's on my mind too. Put rope down there and not use it for a few years, and then when you do you might find its in poor shape to use it safely. If you know you have a hard limit of 200 ft of chain, you deal with it. And not fool yourself into thinking you have more than you safely have.

 

[twistedtree]

Does Helmsman really deliver boats in the PWN with only 200' of chain? I find that hard to believe, so would quiz them some more on the limit. Perhaps you can find some Helmsman owners (like dhays) operating with more than 200' who can comment on performance and handling? Assuming 3/8" chain, adding 100' is 150 lbs. I find it really hard to believe that will be noticeable in any way on a 40,000 - 50,000 lb boat.


If in the end you are convinced that 200' is the limit, then just proceed with that constraint. We cruised from the Gaspe peninsula to the Bahamas with 200' of chain. You just adapt, and it's no big deal. If it were the PNW, I'd have a problem with 200' of chain.

 

[FWT]

Does Helmsman really deliver boats in the PWN with only 200' of chain? I find that hard to believe, so would quiz them some more on the limit. Perhaps you can find some Helmsman owners (like dhays) operating with more than 200' who can comment on performance and handling? Assuming 3/8" chain, adding 100' is 150 lbs. I find it really hard to believe that will be noticeable in any way on a 40,000 - 50,000 lb boat.


If in the end you are convinced that 200' is the limit, then just proceed with that constraint. We cruised from the Gaspe peninsula to the Bahamas with 200' of chain. You just adapt, and it's no big deal. If it were the PNW, I'd have a problem with 200' of chain.

I don't speak for Scott and Helmsman. And I don't cruise the PNW. I can't speak for Helmsman or the PNW conditions.

Having said that, I did have a conversation, and the 200 ft was my takeaway. My takeaway was that if one wants more, consider line behind the chain.

If one wanted another 50 ft or something that would make a difference for them, I personally doubt that's an issue. 400ft of chain? I gather thats an issue. Where should one draw the line in nibbling at it? Personal choice. Nobody says you can't do whatever it is you want to do. Helmsman recommends stopping at 200 ft of chain. At least, that's my takeaway.

People do things all the time to make changes, and sometimes its good and sometimes not. Somewhere on here recently there was a thread of a second owner wrestling with the problem of an anchor purchased with the boat that just didn't fit between the roller and windlass. Change what you like, but sometimes there are consequences.

Anyone who has had the pleasure of speaking with Scott and working through issues of desired build specs will tell you the man knows his boat, and boating. He doesn't just talk out of his hat like some salesman types. If he has a recommendation, I listen carefully. I'm taking his advice on this.

Scott's advice on a variety of issues has been BIG value added that comes with the price of the boat.

Especially since the ICW and over to the Bahamas is where 90+ % of my cruising will be. For the Chesapeake and down the ICW I will be using less than 100 ft more than I will 100 to 200 ft. The topic is moot for most of what I will do. Its only the area north of the Chesapeake where I draw a blank from having no local knowledge of that area. Hence this thread.

 

[FWT]

TwistedTree:

After that long-winded answer it occurs to me the answer is more simple.

A difference in perspective.

You have a gigantic Nordhavn. (Yeah, green with envy!) 400 ft of chain on a boat like that is probably nothing. We little people have to contend with the limitations of boat smaller than yours.

 

[rslifkin]

What size chain does the 38E come with? Depending on that and the windlass in question, you might be able to swap the gypsy and downsize the chain a size (and go up a strength grade) to save some weight and then add more length. 5/16" is just over 2/3 the weight per foot of 3/8, for example. So dropping a size and adding 100 feet might work out about the same in total weight and locker space.

 

[FWT]

What size chain does the 38E come with? Depending on that and the windlass in question, you might be able to swap the gypsy and downsize the chain a size (and go up a strength grade) to save some weight and then add more length. 5/16" is just over 2/3 the weight per foot of 3/8, for example. So dropping a size and adding 100 feet might work out about the same in total weight and locker space.

5/16 HT. Your suggestion is already incorporated.

And a Stainless Bruce. I’m going to swap that out for an Ultra. At least that’s the current plan.

 

[twistedtree]

TwistedTree:

After that long-winded answer it occurs to me the answer is more simple.

A difference in perspective.

You have a gigantic Nordhavn. (Yeah, green with envy!) 400 ft of chain on a boat like that is probably nothing. We little people have to contend with the limitations of boat smaller than yours.

Perhaps, but I think less than you imagine. I didn't mean to imply that 200' was a bad choice - just the opposite since we cruised a similar size boats all over the east coast with 200' and never felt it wasn't enough.


I was just suggesting that if you wanted more, you could likely find example owners in the PNW with 300-400' who could tell you how it impacts the boat. But no need if you are settled on 200'. Carry on, and enjoy the boat!

 

[FWT]

we cruised a similar size boats all over the east coast with 200' and never felt it wasn't enough.

Terrific. The perspective I have been seeking. Thanks.

 

[rwp]

I would stay with the 200’ of chain and back it with 200’ of nylon. Prefer the 8-plait such as brait. It lays down flat and doesn’t hockle up. You will use only chain S of the Chesapeake but you will sleep well! Just make sure your windlass gypsy will accommodate your chain and rode.

 

[Circumnavigator]

We've been cruising Maine (and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, which are similar) and, for that matter, as my handle says, around the world. In fifty years I don't think I ever have used more than 200' of rode except once when we had to anchor in Nantucket Sound in 25 knots of wind. We've dragged only once -- in Fintry, with 150' of 5/8 stud link chain in 25 feet of water and a 400 pound anchor in 20 knots of wind -- on a flat granite slab (which obviously I didn't know).


By all means have a couple of hundred feet of appropriately sized nylon to bend on if you get into an odd spot and also to tie to a reserve anchor if you get in a spot where having two anchors would be good.


Comments on comments above.


"Don’t trust any chain links to be as strong as continuous chain" -- Fintry came from the Royal Navy with chain in 15 fathom shots and lugless joiners. That's standard practice for ships (and chain) of all sizes. Does our member know something the Royal Navy doesn't?


"A couple hundred more feet of chain is like a good size guy standing on the bow. ". First, that's true only for small chain. Second, there are many boats that can stand having people on the bow as needed, but do better cruising without extra weight up there.


Jim

 

[Malcolm]

On balance 200 ft of chain should be adequate. If your windlass can handle both rope and chain, I'd add another 100 ft of appropriately sized rope rode behind the chain for emergencies. Equally important to length of scope is type of anchor(s) given the varying bottom conditions.
I've had Deltas drag in the soupy mud of the Chesapeake and Danforths unable to set in grassy conditions.

 

[rgano]

The builder knows the boat better than any of us. I'm taking their advice.

Yes, and while adding that much weight forward may not result in any noticeable trim by the bow, there is the issue of where the mass is in the boat. Extra weight well forward and/or aft can result in excessive hobby horsing when the seas build up.

Regarding fiber rode attached to the boat end of a chain and using a windlass designed to seamlessly transition from rope to chain, I find myself not a fan. Firstly, my Lewmar required my presence at the windlass to encourage the transition point through the wildcat. Then, upon pulling the chain for remarking, I found the links resting on the perennially damp 8-brait was corroding badly as was the interface link. I cut he offending links off and removed the wet rope. In the infinitesimally small chance I ever need to extend the 200 feet of chain rode I carry, I can still carry the 200 feet of nylon stowed in the lazarette up to the bow and shackle it to the bitter end of the chain inboard of the snubber hanging onto the chain.

 

[Jgutten]

If you go with all chain, how do you cut the chain in the event of an emergency where you need to get rid of the anchor?

 

[Bacchus]

If you go with all chain, how do you cut the chain in the event of an emergency where you need to get rid of the anchor?

A short tether secures the boat end and can be cut easily

 

[backinblue]

Not sure of the boat size. I may be in a minority here, but prefer a nylon/chain rode. Why carry extra weight that you don't need to and may rarely or never use? Also, why deal with bridles if you don't have to? One rule of thumb is to use about a boat's length of chain and the rest nylon (strongly suggest 8-plait). With that setup, you will likely always deploy all the chain and then some length of nylon to get the scope you need. A few hunderd feet of nylon is not expensive and does not add unnecessary weight.

 

[RedRascal]

A short tether secures the boat end and can be cut easily

or long tether of line that will float so you can come back and get your anchor later. That's one of multiple strategies for being able to retrieve your ground tackle when things go south.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have about 25ft of poly line running for the end of the chain to the attachment point in the chain locker. Run all the chain out, cut the line and worry about retrieving it later. You can also attach a big red round float to the end of the chain and poly rope.

Without checking my maintenance log, I think I have about 250 of chain.

 

[Malcolm]

You don't/can't cut the chain. On most boats the bitter end of the chain is tied (signal cord sized rope) to something in the chain locker. You must let out almost all the chain and then cut the securing rope in the chain locker to let the end go overboard. Some skippers have tied a fender, with enough scope to reach the surface...near the chain's bitter end...before letting it all go overboard...to mark the anchor's
location.

 

[rgano]

I may be in a minority here, but prefer a nylon/chain rode. Why carry extra weight that you don't need to and may rarely or never use? Also, why deal with bridles if you don't have to? One rule of thumb is to use about a boat's length of chain and the rest nylon (strongly suggest 8-plait).....

I consider bridles just snubbers by another name. Even though used by some (not on any boat I have ever sailed) to prevent yawing at anchor, they are removing the stress from the windlass and from the fiber (or chain) rode where it runs over the hawse or rub rail. You should always have to deal with at least the single-leg bridle/snubber - no escaping that little chore. I prefer all-chain rode with length to suit depths where I normally anchor enabling me to use quite a bit of it each time we anchor.

 

[twistedtree]

You don't/can't cut the chain. On most boats the bitter end of the chain is tied (signal cord sized rope) to something in the chain locker. You must let out almost all the chain and then cut the securing rope in the chain locker to let the end go overboard. Some skippers have tied a fender, with enough scope to reach the surface...near the chain's bitter end...before letting it all go overboard...to mark the anchor's
location.

I agree that letting the chain all the way out and cutting the rope link is preferred.... but cutting the chain isn't a big deal with a grinder and cutting wheel. Less than a minute and she's gone. As last resort of course, but if needed...

 

[Porgy]

In a real emergency I doubt I’d have the time or presence of mind to tie a float to the end of the severed chain. I might think to mark a waypoint on the chart plotter though and hire a diver to look for it. I wouldn’t want to leave a significant length of floating line to retrieve later at the risk of another boater running it down in the meantime.

 

[FWT]

We've been cruising Maine (and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, which are similar) and, for that matter, as my handle says, around the world. In fifty years I don't think I ever have used more than 200' of rode except once when we had to anchor in Nantucket Sound in 25 knots of wind. We've dragged only once -- in Fintry, with 150' of 5/8 stud link chain in 25 feet of water and a 400 pound anchor in 20 knots of wind -- on a flat granite slab (which obviously I didn't know).


By all means have a couple of hundred feet of appropriately sized nylon to bend on if you get into an odd spot and also to tie to a reserve anchor if you get in a spot where having two anchors would be good.


Jim

THANK YOU.

This is exactly where my head is. A backup / second anchor with rope rode attached to a bit of chain. When I need / want more I will repurpose to use at the end of the primary chain. This solves multiple issues.

 

[FWT]

Equally important to length of scope is type of anchor(s) given the varying bottom conditions.
I've had Deltas drag in the soupy mud of the Chesapeake and Danforths unable to set in grassy conditions.

I am currently thinking an Ultra. It seems to test well in most conditions.

 

[Wxx3]

This one is windlass dependent. If you expect to use both often, get a windlass that will pull rope with the gypsy and splice it to the chain. My Maxwell HRC 10 handles the transition pretty nicely, just need to slow down sightly when the splice comes through on retrieval in deep water when there's some tension on it.

I figure the ideal is enough chain to cover most situations and allow a decent depth without line reaching the bottom in anchorages where bottom chafe is an issue. But then add line after the chain (assuming it'll fit in the locker) to allow deeper anchoring. There's not much reason to carry around additional heavy chain if it'll only get used once or twice a year.

I agree with this.
Being in New England, it was handy to have 400' of chain, but addding 200 or 300' of rode to 200' chain works well also, as it gives you some options.
Also, in deeper anchorages, I have found 2x or 3x more than sufficient.