Hurricane Ian Ripple Effects: Questions for the Professionals on the Forum

[hmason]

Thanks for all the advice that northerners and midwesterners have for us southerners. Just try getting a seasonal slip up north for the hurricane season. Just try to find a safe place in range of FL when a storm is predicted.

 

[backinblue]

From cruisers forum



living on the other side of the world I don't know the area at all but looking at satellite views it's what I would have done here, but not the bolded bit.
That should easily have been done with a couple of days notice.

Get up river into an offshoot away from storm surge
Get away from hard concrete
Get away from other boats

It always seems to be the marinas that cop the most damage
And they have those 3 things



Just looked at maps and marinas in Fort Myers
10's of thousands of boats?
I sure couldn't see anything like those numbers

I wasn't talking about Ft Meyers. More likely that number near where I boat and other parts of FL as well. I don't like to raft up on a calm day. I can't imagine wanting to create huge rafts of boats during a hurricane. But that's probably what's required if you want to get all boats in an area into a hurricane hole. Not for me thanks. I also don't know that Insurance would cover the damage and sinking of boats that would result from this. So I stand by my statement that expecting all boaters to travel to a safe place days before a storm hits is not feasible.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think many of these posts reflect a difference in boating culture that goes back to the start of recreational boating.
Up north boating has always been seasonal. So….
There’s dry storage of some sort for virtual all boats in the water. Except for parts of NJ and the Chessie well above possible storm surge.
Winter gales are frequent and strong enough parking lots and other storage spaces are usually well drained. Marinas that don’t offer storage are at a marketing disadvantage. Some store inside and some even with heat.
Down south you can boat all year long. In summer it’s a good way to get relief from heat and humidity. There’s no economic sense to dedicate to storage space that could be making money. It’s hard to find space that won’t flood with surge in some areas. Inside storage makes no economic sense for the vendor unless active work is being done on the vessel.
‘Canes tend to be more common around September. Every insurance I’ve had would pay for a haul out (not to resplash) for a named storm. Every yard I’ve been in will haul year round customers first, then whole season slip holders second then transients if there’s room left. So you call as soon as it’s named. Even if it’s a TS at the time. Get hauled. Only decision is when you call whether to be placed to resplash or not.
The mindset of seasonal boating travels with you. We had an agreement with Clarke’s Court to haul whenever we got nervous. My father in law was a fanatic powerboater. His kids (including my wife) were liveaboards staying mostly in Martha vineyard ever summer. Up here hauled annually in Weymouth.
Moved to Pompano Beach. Was offered a 50’ slip which would have been sufficient for his boat. Told me didn’t want to deal with it so sold it and put a Grady white on the canal behind his house a few feet from his back door. Also made arrangements for storage inside a commercial shed ~50m inland. A New England belt and suspenders attitude.
Many people boat on weekends or vacation time. Up north once boating is over we hunt, ski, travel or otherwise amuse ourselves. Down south that boat is always there and ready to go. I live in a tourist town. I can’t wait for tourist season to be over. Wouldn’t be surprised if Floridians particularly enjoy their boating in the summer and fall when the tourists and seasonal people aren’t around.
But as long people in the zone don’t view boating as a seasonal activity losses will persist at a much higher rate.

 

[Simi 60]

So I stand by my statement that expecting all boaters to travel to a safe place days before a storm hits is not feasible.

Sure it is.
If it keeps going the way it is and insurers give you no coverage or drastically increase premiums, deductable and reduce claim payouts you will have no option but to find a safe place.

Look at the increase on premium, deductable and special clause added into my 2019 policy.
For no other reason than the huge losses in the US and underwriters getting out of the market as a whole.

 

[Hippocampus]

Wonder about mitigation. Been to Amsterdam multiple times. To see their engineering to effect a viable storm plan is simply amazing. Even Hoboken is working toward mitigation. Perhaps I’m just not aware but don’t see much of anything going on in Florida.
I get unlike areas in the zone where boaters aren’t residents such as the eastern Caribbean boaters in Florida commonly are residents. It fine for me to say behave like the Caribbean where you just leave or New England where you just haul but it ain’t that simple. I get that. But recreational boats aren’t houses . They’re not a necessity. They’re a choice. Is what it is.

 

[backinblue]

Sure it is.
If it keeps going the way it is and insurers give you no coverage or drastically increase premiums, deductable and reduce claim payouts you will have no option but to find a safe place.

Look at the increase on premium, deductable and special clause added into my 2019 policy.
For no other reason than the huge losses in the US and underwriters getting out of the market as a whole.

So you agree with jamming as many boats as possible into a "safe" harbor and rafting them tightly together with a hurricane approaching? I disagree. If insurance premiums, like any cost of boating, becomes too high, many will leave boating and choose to spend their leisure money elsewhere.

I agree with Hippo that marinas up north will try to haul as many boats as possible, but even if they have the space, their bandwidth is limited to how many boats they can haul and block in a few days. Probably a few dozen but certainly not a season's worth. So with all this discussion, I've yet to hear a real solution that would work for the majority of boaters in a given area. Maybe a better idea is to choose a marina based on the likelihood your boat could survive a decent storm there. They do exist, but even I'll admit that's not my priority even if it should be.

 

[Simi 60]

So you agree with jamming as many boats as possible into a "safe" harbor and rafting them tightly together with a hurricane approaching? I disagree. .

If you had read my post you will see where I said that I personally would not do that.

If insurance premiums, like any cost of boating, becomes too high, many will leave boating and choose to spend their leisure money elsewhere.

Yep, and the ripple affect to that will be marinas, boatyards, builders etc going belly up
And prices of existing boats dropping.

All bought on by??????

 

[DDW]

But the point of insurance is that everybody pays into a pool of money to help those who need it and hope you never do.

That is the way it is supposed to work, amongst a reference class with approximately equal risk. For example health insurance, where your risk of getting serious disease are about the same as the next guy.

But talking about boats, the risk is greatly dependent on geographic location details, so asking someone in the PNW to share the risk of hurricanes in Florida is not what insurance is - or should be - about. If the premiums in the hurricane belt are increased to cover the losses and expected future losses, then the problem solves itself: those to whom the cost is worth it buy insurance, those who chose to sustain the loss themselves go uninsured. It would be nice if those living there but having a plan, moving the boat, and taking precautions would also see insurance commensurate with their efforts.

The reality of insurance is less than that vision of perfection though. The broad brush spreads the risk farther and wider than it ought to go, and treats everyone in Ft. Myers the same, plans and mitigation be damned. I see this in my house insurance, my aircraft insurance, my auto insurance, and my boat insurance. Individual properties with 3x the risk are paying only 2x the premium for example. Guess who pays the rest?

 

[backinblue]

If you had read my post you will see where I said that I personally would do that.



Yep, and the ripple affect to that will be marinas, boatyards, builders etc going belly up
And prices of existing boats dropping.

All bought on by??????

I did see that, but my point is that it won't work UNLESS you agree with jamming as many boats as possible into a safe harbor which is the opposite of what you'd want in a storm. So I'll ask for the last time, what is the solution that will work for all boaters when a storm is imminent? Don't criticize if you don't have a resonable alternative. You can't just say "everyone should just go where the storm isn't" unless there's a realistic way that could actually work.

My more subtle point earlier was that all boaters sharing in the costs of those who experience loss due to a storm, is better for all of us and the entire boating community and industry. Not saying that some areas don't deserve a higher premium, but insurance only works if the costs of the few are shared by the many. Isn't that in essence what insurance is? Your premimums are never meant to cover your individual loss. If that was the case, we should all just self-insure.

 

[psneeld]

That is the way it is supposed to work, amongst a reference class with approximately equal risk. For example health insurance, where your risk of getting serious disease are about the same as the next guy.

But talking about boats, the risk is greatly dependent on geographic location details, so asking someone in the PNW to share the risk of hurricanes in Florida is not what insurance is - or should be - about. If the premiums in the hurricane belt are increased to cover the losses and expected future losses, then the problem solves itself: those to whom the cost is worth it buy insurance, those who chose to sustain the loss themselves go uninsured. It would be nice if those living there but having a plan, moving the boat, and taking precautions would also see insurance commensurate with their efforts.

The reality of insurance is less than that vision of perfection though. The broad brush spreads the risk farther and wider than it ought to go, and treats everyone in Ft. Myers the same, plans and mitigation be damned. I see this in my house insurance, my aircraft insurance, my auto insurance, and my boat insurance. Individual properties with 3x the risk are paying only 2x the premium for example. Guess who pays the rest?

The season I kept the boat in Indiantown, Fl on the hard, above a major lock and on a hill, tied down with 4 major cargo straps.... I paid the same premium and in the water next to the coast for hurricane season. To me, insurance companies obviously cater numbers, not the customer.

My previous company charged me similar and wanted me out of Florida totally....couldn't be in the water OR on the hard.

You tell me..... so why would people bother with trying to mitigate the risk of a hurricane?

Especially if well insured, and they feel they would have collected more in insurance than if they sold the boat.... I know I would have gotten 2X more than what I sold my boat for.

 

[garbler]

Excellent analysis DDW. The insurance concept has changed considerably for a number of reasons. There used to be more regional companies that wrote business in their neighborhoods and knew their market intimately. Unfortunately that model is diminishing so like hospitals, airlines, department stores and pharmacies etc. are all being rolled into giant National companies who no longer concern themselves with local needs but broad spectrum markets. Insurance companies, as have been noted by others, run the business on international investments and the averages. You live in Nebraska with no boat, no flood risks but your tax dollars are supporting the FEMA controlled National Flood Insurance program that pays for coastal losses, many of which are high dollar seasonal digs for people who often can afford losses. The program works cause it can tap into a national tax pool. Insurance companies work the same way.

They run their business much like any other multi-national investment house where your premiums are just one stream of income. They analyze the markets as profit and loss using Risk Management data sometimes generated by specialist firms or often in-house pools. But the whole enchilada is about averages and as the end consumer you often can’t understand how you’re being nicked for occurances completely unrelated to you. It’s not fair it’s business.

The only way that I know of to somewhat circumvent the problems associated with getting coverage equitably today at livable rates is the CoOp model such as the Passenger Vessel Association, Maine Lobsteman’s, American Tuna Boat Assc. Etc.. By organizing you take a block of business to the companies that has real financial leverage and always gets them to the table. Group rates are always better in price and coverage as the association is able to negotiate terms. Is this even remotely possible well I don’t know as group consensus is always problematic since there are always egos and contras in every group. But I do know when push comes to shove and the insured is up against the wall and wants to continue using their boat with coverage there is always somebody who will step up and try to organize. A bit of a long reach dream but predicated on facts.

Rick

 

[backinblue]

Just to throw something else into the already murky mix....

I wonder what people think about federal funds going to help people living in an area affected by natural disasters or storms. Like maybe you live in Michigan which is known to be pretty free from hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes, yet every year your tax dollars are bailing out people who live in other states that are more likely to be affected. Just stirring the pot a bit, but should tax rates, like insurance, be adjusted based on risk?

Reminds me of a "funny" analogy about people living in "tornado alley". The story goes that what if there was a cave and in the cave lived a big monster. Every once in a while he comes out and stomps around and destroys everthing nearby. Would you build a house near that cave? And yet people continue to build and re-build in areas prone to tornadoes and hurricanes.

 

[Larry M]

There’s been a lot of discussion about boats going up toward Lake Okeechobbee and getting past the first lock at least. It may help a few but in reality how many?

The first lock, Franklin Lock, is 400’x56’ and 33 miles from the ICW and operates 7-5 365 days a year. On a normal day it’s 20-30 minutes to lock through. A lock cycle can take 40-60 plus minutes. If the lock has multiple vessels it can take longer. With a full lock? A least an hour just to load would be my guess. You do the math on how many boats can get past the first lock.

 

[backinblue]

There’s been a lot of discussion about boats going up toward Lake Okeechobbee and getting past the first lock at least. It may help a few but in reality how many?

The first lock, Franklin Lock, is 400’x56’ and 33 miles from the ICW and operates 7-5 365 days a year. On a normal day it’s 20-30 minutes to lock through. A lock cycle can take 40-60 plus minutes. If the lock has multiple vessels it can take longer. With a full lock? A least an hour just to load would be my guess. You do the math on how many boats can get past the first lock.

Thanks you! Somebody gets what I have been trying to say all day. The logistics of what some people are suggesting is just not physically possible.

 

[psneeld]

I would be curious if any of the western locks could be left open like the Port Mayaca lock often is to expedite hurricane traffic....

 

[KnotYet]

Just to throw something else into the already murky mix....

I wonder what people think about federal funds going to help people living in an area affected by natural disasters or storms. Like maybe you live in Michigan which is known to be pretty free from hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes, yet every year your tax dollars are bailing out people who live in other states that are more likely to be affected. Just stirring the pot a bit, but should tax rates, like insurance, be adjusted based on risk?

Reminds me of a "funny" analogy about people living in "tornado alley". The story goes that what if there was a cave and in the cave lived a big monster. Every once in a while he comes out and stomps around and destroys everthing nearby. Would you build a house near that cave? And yet people continue to build and re-build in areas prone to tornadoes and hurricanes.

It doesn't seem like a very good solution, does it?

If, as it seems, there are going to be more and more serious storms
on the way, more restrictive zoning will have to be implemented.
It's better to avoid massive loss.

Hilo in Hawaii comes to mind. A tsunami wiped out the center area
of the city and now it a large open park area where no housing is
permitted.

 

[tisho]

I have to take a boat from Key West

To Crystal River , any suggestions as to path. We should take?
We are planning to run to Marco at 8 knots and then make out way to Bradenton for fuel. I appreciate any suggestions to the contrary.

 

[Blissboat]

To Crystal River , any suggestions as to path. We should take?
We are planning to run to Marco at 8 knots and then make out way to Bradenton for fuel. I appreciate any suggestions to the contrary.

That ought to work. Keep the west coast of Florida on your starboard side, and turn east at whatever inlet you like beginning with Venice and points north.

 

[Hippocampus]

My next door neighbor had a projectile go through their roof over the living room. Another went through the roof of their bedroom. The lanai is gone as is their boat lift. My postman lost his house. He was set to retire in a month and move in full time.
We’re talking boats while good people are losing homes. Terrible doings on so many levels

 

[O C Diver]

There’s been a lot of discussion about boats going up toward Lake Okeechobbee and getting past the first lock at least. It may help a few but in reality how many?

The first lock, Franklin Lock, is 400’x56’ and 33 miles from the ICW and operates 7-5 365 days a year. On a normal day it’s 20-30 minutes to lock through. A lock cycle can take 40-60 plus minutes. If the lock has multiple vessels it can take longer. With a full lock? A least an hour just to load would be my guess. You do the math on how many boats can get past the first lock.

Based on my locking experience, I would say about 80 (8 per cycle) 50' or less boats a day. The Moore Haven lock is smaller at 250'. I locked through there with 5 other boats.

If the Franklin lock traffic is only East bound, they can dump the chamber in 5 to 10 minutes depending on tide level of the river. If no West bound traffic and a backlog or East bound, around 50 minutes to do a full cycle.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

Every insurance I’ve had would pay for a haul out (not to resplash) for a named storm. Every yard I’ve been in will haul year round customers first, then whole season slip holders second then transients if there’s room left. So you call as soon as it’s named. Even if it’s a TS at the time. Get hauled.

I've not yet invoked that clause. I wonder if it depends on where the storm actually goes. For example, if I were in Tampa and got hauled... but Ian made landfall at Ft. Myers... does insurance pay?

I probably need to check. Most recent example for us was Sandy, predicted to come here. I moved the boat (instead of hauling) to better docks and better wind protection 3 days before landfall here was predicted (4 days early would have been better)... but then Sandy came ashore over in NJ.

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

I’ve used this clause multiple times. NOAA posts warning by fairly small geographic areas. The fine print in your policy gives you the details of exactly what is required for them to pay. Usually it’s the NOAA statement. Biggest problem is to get to the head of your yards list. As said by other posters they can haul only so many boats per day. So sometimes have called even before NOAA has made a formal statement. Other issues for me have been whether to relaunch or not. If not it’s harder to empty the boat when it’s on the hard than in a slip for winter.

 

[ranger58sb]

I’ve used this clause multiple times. NOAA posts warning by fairly small geographic areas. The fine print in your policy gives you the details of exactly what is required for them to pay. Usually it’s the NOAA statement.

(I think) Until the day before landfall at Ft. Myers, the NOAA prediction was a) most all of the west coast of Florida, and/or b) Tampa... depending on the wording du' jour.

I'll have to recheck my policy wording...

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Guess my small is obtuse. To me all of Florida would still be small.

 

[psneeld]

(I think) Until the day before landfall at Ft. Myers, the NOAA prediction was a) most all of the west coast of Florida, and/or b) Tampa... depending on the wording du' jour.

I'll have to recheck my policy wording...

-Chris

Mine usually said something like "when NOAA declares a named storm/hurricane warning or XXXX for your area, the amendment is in effect"

 

[psneeld]

"Florida has the longest coastline of the lower 48 states, boasting approximately 1,350 miles of coastline . However, Alaska has the longest coastline of any state, with about 6,640 miles. In addition, Florida also has the longest Atlantic Ocean coastline of any eastern state. "

https://phenomenalflorida.com/does-florida-have-the-longest-coastline/

 

[backinblue]

"Florida has the longest coastline of the lower 48 states, boasting approximately 1,350 miles of coastline . However, Alaska has the longest coastline of any state, with about 6,640 miles. In addition, Florida also has the longest Atlantic Ocean coastline of any eastern state. "

https://phenomenalflorida.com/does-florida-have-the-longest-coastline/

I was thinking the same thing. Not sure how FL is small in any reagard especially related to boating.

 

[Hippocampus]

For Fiona there was hurricane watches for USVI, PR, Florida, Georgia, SC. Warnings about the same. TS watches a small bit bigger and warnings a slight bit smaller. Any would serve the language in most policies. She was a geographically a big storm as well as strong. Even up here our seas were effected as she passed by on her way to Canada. To my mind that’s big. Multiple states and countries. Grandson got a kick watching the waves break over the local sea walls.
In comparison Sandy or even Katrina were small from what I remember.
Not arguing about length of shoreline nor human impact. You’re obviously right. Fiona was big but you see hurricanes pass through one relatively small segment of Florida and other than that swath have little effect on the rest of that state or others. Usually those hitting the southern Atlantic coast first and exiting into GOMEX.

 

[mvweebles]

For Sandy, wasn't there some oddball thing where most homeowner flood and storm policies had an exclusion for named hurricanes, so the storm was renamed "Super Storm Sandy" by state authorities to force insurance coverage? Sounds ridiculous in hindsight, but I seem to recall some interesting political shenanigans related to coverage.

Or am I dreaming?

Peter

 

[psneeld]

So....maybe 100 or so miles suffered bad to catastrophic damage. That leaves a lot of Florida that residents could have moved their boats to.

You do have to evade Cat 4 or 5 winds, even heavy 2 to 3, I would never ride out but usually less than 100 miles away if Cat 1 or less.

Not all boats ca leave, but many more than what usually leave could. Florida (especially at FT Meyers, known to be a Hurricane disaster like Tampa Bay) is at the left part of an escape "H". You can go north or south or east and get to a whole protected side of the state. But as I posted before....boats are far enough down the worry about ladder they get left behind. I was a liveaboard with nothing else to take care of so my planning could be a bit different. But the options are still there for those who want them.

Thinking outside the box is the most critical step in survival as no one plan will survive much past it's implementation.