Hurricane Ian Ripple Effects: Questions for the Professionals on the Forum

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

That is the way it is supposed to work, amongst a reference class with approximately equal risk. For example health insurance, where your risk of getting serious disease are about the same as the next guy.

But talking about boats, the risk is greatly dependent on geographic location details, so asking someone in the PNW to share the risk of hurricanes in Florida is not what insurance is - or should be - about. If the premiums in the hurricane belt are increased to cover the losses and expected future losses, then the problem solves itself: those to whom the cost is worth it buy insurance, those who chose to sustain the loss themselves go uninsured. It would be nice if those living there but having a plan, moving the boat, and taking precautions would also see insurance commensurate with their efforts.

The reality of insurance is less than that vision of perfection though. The broad brush spreads the risk farther and wider than it ought to go, and treats everyone in Ft. Myers the same, plans and mitigation be damned. I see this in my house insurance, my aircraft insurance, my auto insurance, and my boat insurance. Individual properties with 3x the risk are paying only 2x the premium for example. Guess who pays the rest?

So is insurance a State issue? Could not regulations be enacted to help take care of this? But, Insurance Companies have BIG lobbyist and power at the State legislatures.

 

[psneeld]

P I understand most boats are small undocumented vessels with valuations in the tens of thousands or less. A smaller segment documented with values in the hundreds of thousands. Then a few with values in the millions plus fractions there of. Looking at pictures on the web and speaking with friends down there much of the litter is in the second and third groups. It is to those two groups that I was addressing my comments. Surely once a vessel is worth more than $3-500k and depending upon your financial picture perhaps even less it becomes a major asset worth saving. Sure perhaps with a value of $100-200k you might say it is what it is and I’ll take my chances. Beyond trawlers there’s a lot of center consoles worth that and more. Understand decision matrix is different for each person. But I think there’s going to be a lot of folks (even after insurance) who are going to be out of a whole lot of money.

Dont disagree on some points but have m clue what your point is.

 

[DDW]

So is insurance a State issue? Could not regulations be enacted to help take care of this? But, Insurance Companies have BIG lobbyist and power at the State legislatures.

I doubt the pleasure boat insurance market in any individual state is sufficient to make an attractive risk pool. Surely states are involved in insurance regulation for homes and health insurance, but these markets are several orders of magnitude higher.

 

[Blissboat]

I doubt the pleasure boat insurance market in any individual state is sufficient to make an attractive risk pool. Surely states are involved in insurance regulation for homes and health insurance, but these markets are several orders of magnitude higher.

That makes sense, about the scale of the market. In addition, when it comes to homeowners' insurance, states regulate not just the insurance products, but also the assets being insured. A house or condo anywhere in Florida had to have been built to conform to zoning and land-use regulations and building codes, all specific to Florida. Not saying those standards are particularly robust, but at least they exist. And if a claimant can be proven to have side-stepped any state and local regulations, guess what the insurance company is going to say?

Boat construction, maintenance and storage are more variable and thus actuarily challenging to evaluate, and besides that, boats and their owners can cross state lines with ease.

When marine insurers declare that certain high-risk areas are ineligible for coverage, the risk they are looking at has little if anything to do with state and local laws. It mostly has to do with physical and climate geography.

A builder can build a house that is nearly hurricane proof just about anywhere - all it takes is money. But a hurricane proof boat? Not so much.

 

[Hippocampus]

One factor not yet discussed goes beyond boat insurance. That is marina insurance. On multiple occasions have run into marinas that have a a requirement for a submitted storm plan. Not that rarely it requires all boats be removed from the slips for a named storm. Either moved elsewhere or on the hard with strict requirements for the details of storage. This particularly true fo those marinas with floating docks. Hav e seen this extended to mooring fields where the nature of the mooring has strict requirements. In my area screws not concrete blocks are required. Specs for the chain vary depending upon size of moored boat as does pendants. Also they must be dived and serviced annually if required. Details submitted to the harbormaster annually before use.
Marinas experience substantial losses and are dependent upon insurance in order to rebuild and stay solvent. Already as time goes on the nature of those policies is reflected in the rules of the marina. Marinas are in competition with shoreside developers for space. Would be interested to see how this plays out given the variance in risk between developers and marinas given the nature of construction. Would not be surprised to see fewer marinas and those that exist having very much more restrictions. Of course the absence of berthing will impact the number of boats in an area and when they are there. Insurance requirements placed on the marina in order to maintain insurance after rebuild will place additional expense on the marina as it will probably be required to be more resilient. Expect that to be reflected in fees. Expect many boaters to be priced out.

 

[psneeld]

I am pretty certain that a few states have passed legislation that if a marina is sold, it must provide the same number or more slips even if it goes condo or individual homes. Even things including travel lift and fork services must be provided in the future.

True that residents have first dibs, but if not used, they must be available to the public.

Often when new builds go in near existing marinas, the wealthy swoop in and rent out seasonal slips before they even own boats.

So even with legislation to help boaters, money still wins in many cases. This definitely impacts transient cruisers as I have experienced it several times.

Not sure of Florida laws as they aren't as crowded as the Mid-Atlantic I am familiar with.

 

[garbler]

Many states have coastal ordinances that protect the ‘working waterfront’. If there is an existing boat or shipyard, fish house, or marina for example then it cannot be replaced by something that is unrelated. This has created the developers who have a work around which is condos with slips. Some towns don’t buy it but many do. San Francisco is a good example of letting the working waterfront get consumed by developers. The first time I heard the saying ‘ once the working waterfront is gone you never get it back ‘ was in SF.

Rick

 

[DDW]

Often when new builds go in near existing marinas, the wealthy swoop in and rent out seasonal slips before they even own boats.

I once tried to buy a waterfront townhouse just so I could own the dock, intending to rent out the townhouse. This was during the 2008 debacle and the market was so wiggy I couldn't complete the deal on any reasonable terms.

 

[Hippocampus]

In my home town

The mooring field was changed. More moorings for small undocumented vessels and fewer for larger documented vessels.
There’s a safe harbor that wants to rebuild a building for recreational boating uses. They’ve been blocked by the historical committee. That building has been part of the marina even before SH bought it.
Next town over serviced ships. That part of the waterfront is called cordage park. At one time it had berths for ships. In spite of that developers have converted that area to housing, storefronts and offices. There is a very small area for boat storage. Attempts to restore a maritime use has been unsuccessful in spite of attempts. Currently more housing with attached slips may occur. Negotiations are in progress.
The next town north had a marina. It went bankrupt. Now a sailing and maritime school. Not accessible to the public the travel lift and runway no longer functional. Berths gone for public use.
So for these 3 towns there’s less available moorings, slips and services for cruising boats.

 

[Seevee]

Had Ian continued on the course forecast on the Sunday prior to veering, it would have put Tampa Bay on its dirty side. For years, forecasters have warned of worst case scenario where surge is magnified in Tampa Bay and inundates the city at the northern end of the bay. Tampa has never seen a hurricane, at least not in modern times, so is ill prepared.

A Cat 4 on that path into Tampa would have been devastating. Would rival Katrina, if not surpass, possibly by a longshot.

Peter

Yep, it would be bad

Almost...... This is the problem with hurricane game theory. A good friend has his large boat behind his house in Redington Beach (St Pete area). As Ian was starting to show it was a serious storm with eyes on his house, I asked if he was going to move his boat to safer waters. Recall on this forum (possibly this thread), there was chatter about the storm going north to Carabelle/Apalachicola. He would have had to depart no later than Monday as the seas would be too rough by Tuesday, preferably by Sunday. Had he moved his boat on Sunday, would have been south to Cayo Costa area which would have been really bad luck.

And the two days spent moving his boat would mean two days not preparing his house and vehicles, and family members who depend on him.

Hurricane strategies are much better in hindsight.



Peter

Peter,



My planning, with rare exception, is to stay if cat 1 or less. I have a "reasonable" hurricane hole behind my house. I untie from the dock, move the boat out about 8 feet and anchor or secure it on all sides. Three anchors to the north, boat anchor to trees in the woods, and land lines, mostly past the dock to large trees around the house.... some lines 100 ft long.



I'd rather be there than in a marina. I can float up at least 8 ft or better. If the water goes out, like it did, I'd be resting in a puddle with props in the water.



Of course, bimini down, all hatches secured, helm covered and strapped.


Biggest threat would be flying debris that's hard to control.

 

[mvweebles]

Yep, it would be bad







Peter,



My planning, with rare exception, is to stay if cat 1 or less. I have a "reasonable" hurricane hole behind my house. I untie from the dock, move the boat out about 8 feet and anchor or secure it on all sides. Three anchors to the north, boat anchor to trees in the woods, and land lines, mostly past the dock to large trees around the house.... some lines 100 ft long.



I'd rather be there than in a marina. I can float up at least 8 ft or better. If the water goes out, like it did, I'd be resting in a puddle with props in the water.



Of course, bimini down, all hatches secured, helm covered and strapped.


Biggest threat would be flying debris that's hard to control.

GPS coordinates please......

Peter

 

[garbler]

Hippocampus: it’s been about seven years since I worked in Newport at the shipyard but I recall doing a gratuity job for an old timer at the Ida Lewis who told me that Newport and Rhode Island had ordinances against destroying yacht or working waterfront so that developers could grab it and turn it over. The fishing industry is as deep in RI as Maine. Am I wrong on this ? I know a lot of developers try to get around this despite what the township wants by building waterfront condos with a marina and maybe a small TraveLift and power washer but I hope not. Once is developed it’s gone.

Rick

 

[Hippocampus]

Towns referred to above going south to north are in MA
Plymouth
Kingston
Duxbury.

Waterfront for maritime use has progressively fallen in my lifetime. Moorings for cruising size boats as well. Number of marinas as well.
RI has a very different culture. They realized they recovered more tax income from workers income tax, restaurant taxes, real estate taxes on the homes from marina workers and related industries then they would from taxing boats. MA at one time had a very robust recreational boating industry including manufacturing (Boston Whaler, Cape Dory, TPI etc). They all left the state or went belly up. Boaters from Connecticut and Massachusetts moved their boats to RI. In every RI marina (East Greenwich, Barrington, Melville etc.) Ive done business with the MAJORITY of slips are occupied by out of staters. The only place with a comparable situation with the high density of out of staters is VA and FLA. haven’t studied it but think %age of in state boaters is higher in FLA then the other two. However, FLA is the sole outlier not being seasonal. RI and Chesapeake the boats move or are stored seasonally. FLA not so much.

 

[Datenight]

T
RI has a very different culture....Boaters from Connecticut and Massachusetts moved their boats to RI.

We seriously considered RI when we bought our NP 45. No tax vs 6.35%. In the end CT reduced sales tax on boats to 2.99%.

Our club is less than 15 minutes from the house vs. at least an hour drive. It was also at least $1,500. less per year at the time more now.

A lot of factors involved.

Rob

 

[Hippocampus]

Hope MA wakes up. Surprisingly Conn remains well represented in my current marina. To my recall it’s a row of ten 50’ slips we’re on. Three are occupied by commercial boats (research, crew and survey) 5 by MA residents ,2 by Conn, and just one RI.

 

[SoWhat]

Many states have coastal ordinances that protect the ‘working waterfront’. If there is an existing boat or shipyard, fish house, or marina for example then it cannot be replaced by something that is unrelated.

Boston is subject to numerous regulations re. preservation of water related uses. The result:
Charlestown Navy Yard: All condos, no marine related industry. Marinas were preserved.
East Boston Shipyard: Still a marina but buildings occupied by Down East Cider co. Institute for Contemporary Art, Dog boarding service, Kitchen cabinet maker, still some marine related industry.
East Boston Waterfront: All condos
East Boston Piers: Condos on one, park on another.
South Boston: Still has Container Terminal and small fish pier but most of waterfront is condos and high tech office buildings.

The "highest and best use" is the highest amount of profit a developer can make. Water dependent industry loses in that equation. Once gone, it's gone forever. The few remaining marinas can dictate terms. I suspect the remaining FL marinas will be upping rates and not just because of increased insurance premiums.

 

[Hippocampus]

SW’s excellent post is another post confirming what has been going on in MA for decades. Residencies generate the same amount of money year round. Unlike Atlantic City occupancy rates are consistently very high. Pressure for high end housing remains high even in these inflationary times. Both along the south shore (below Boston) and north shore (above Boston) towns have been transformed from single family housing to more condos and apartments with open spaces disappearing. One of my daughters lives in Rye NH. The shoreline has gone from summer shacks to year round housing so suspect the transformation continues up the New England coast. Unlike the Chesapeake the amount of suitable shoreline is limited compared to population density.
Florida is the outlier. High population density but non seasonal boating. Absence of the infrastructure and space requirements for storing on the hard. Greater division into service yards and berthing yards. But the dream remains. Boat very close to residence used whenever time allows. Question remains is the dream compelling enough to overcome the additional risks and expense involved as those risks and expenses continue to increase.
Through out my boating life friends and peers have expressed they thought I was nuts. Why live on a boat whenever you can? Why spend so much money and time at the expense of money-making time? They especially thought blue water was just plain looney toons. Usually overestimating the risks involved. I’ve gotten crew for passage for decades. As time has gone on notably available crew has gotten older. As us boomers age out think market will shrink for cruisers in both sail and power. Developers are aware. Suspect rebuilding efforts will reflect that as well.