Or with gaseous storage the pressures are very high. Our tank farms were 10,000 psi. It always freaked me out just standing nearby them.
Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Or with gaseous storage the pressures are very high. Our tank farms were 10,000 psi. It always freaked me out just standing nearby them.
I have avoided this thread for quite a while and I have certainly not read all 150+ posts, but here are my 2 cents worth:
Powering an IC engine with hydrogen seems very inefficient. Overall I suspect you are looking at 30%. Feeding hydrogen to a fuel cell is about 80% efficient. Then using that electrical energy to run a motor should also be 80%. So 64% overall.
Use a small Li bank for startup and power bursts.
David
Powering an IC engine with hydrogen seems very inefficient. Overall I suspect you are looking at 30%. Feeding hydrogen to a fuel cell is about 80% efficient. Then using that electrical energy to run a motor should also be 80%. So 64% overall.
Use a small Li bank for startup and power bursts.
David
Actually you'd use an LFP bank to drive the motor, and the fuel cell running 24/7 to supply the needed energy averaged over that period, the LFP smoothing out the bumps in demand.
But the problem with hydrogen power isn't efficiency. It is generating, transporting, transferring, and storing the hydrogen. All of those are problems yet to be solved.
But the problem with hydrogen power isn't efficiency. It is generating, transporting, transferring, and storing the hydrogen. All of those are problems yet to be solved.
sunchaser
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Toyota (Mirai) has a large fleet of Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars moving around California. There are several articles describing the technology, refill stations and issues. There seems considerable effort taking place to make this fleet work but broad stream acceptance seems far off due to the high cost of hydrogen and few and far between refill stations.
It is difficult to see how this technology could be cost effective for recreational boaters if one assumes Toyota is seeing cost issues in the automotive side.
I once headed up Air Liquide’s western hemisphere’s construction operations and we built several H2 plants during that time. Those plants took methane gas, heated it up mixed with water and the C in the methane combined with the O in water to form CO2 and the H in both molecules combined to form H2. 90% of the H2 used in the world is still made this way.
But there are two problems with this: half the energy in the methane goes to heat itself and the water up and drive the reaction; it also releases a lot of CO2 to the atmosphere both of which are very bad for the environment.
Another way is to make the H2 by disassociating water with electricity to make H2 and O2. The electricity can come from wind, solar, hydro or nuclear power to make it greenish.
But until all power in the world is made this way which may take decades, why not keep running marine engines with diesel engines rather than using precious green electricity to make H2, compress it, store it and transport it to fuel ship’s engines?
I don’t see H2 fueled marine engines being practical for a long, long time.
David
But there are two problems with this: half the energy in the methane goes to heat itself and the water up and drive the reaction; it also releases a lot of CO2 to the atmosphere both of which are very bad for the environment.
Another way is to make the H2 by disassociating water with electricity to make H2 and O2. The electricity can come from wind, solar, hydro or nuclear power to make it greenish.
But until all power in the world is made this way which may take decades, why not keep running marine engines with diesel engines rather than using precious green electricity to make H2, compress it, store it and transport it to fuel ship’s engines?
I don’t see H2 fueled marine engines being practical for a long, long time.
David
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Points that need to be addressed:
Fossil fuels [and their use] provide extremely good... product weight, to btu energy, to development/transport cost ratios. Globally, there are viable fossil fuel infrastructures in operational positions with more fossil fuel access available than civilization needs to energize international operations for over a century.
Many billions of hydrocarbon fuel burning items exist [vehicles, power plants, utility products, tools... etc, etc].
Therefore: "Don't Throw the Baby Out With the Bathwater!"
Instead of trying to STOP USE of FOSSIL FUELS [very good means of energy, that are right under our feet!]. We simply need to clean-up, [redirect, reconstitute, reuse, naturally-combine] fossil fuel emissions.
In other words: We CAN clean up atmosphere, oceans and land already incurred pollutions... while... simultaneously limiting [in many ways ceasing] the currently ongoing/continuations of polluting.
My company and many with whom we're connected are working on this; i.e., How to Clean Up Fossil Fuel Pollutions! While, enabling 8 billion humans to have ample forms of energy for continued prosperity and social advancements.
Let's not create new, added problems by Throwing the Baby [i.e., energy filled fossil fuels] Out With the Bath Water. We can scrub these fossil babies' emissions into clean positions... to enable continued energy accessibilities.
Cheers!! - Art
Fossil fuels [and their use] provide extremely good... product weight, to btu energy, to development/transport cost ratios. Globally, there are viable fossil fuel infrastructures in operational positions with more fossil fuel access available than civilization needs to energize international operations for over a century.
Many billions of hydrocarbon fuel burning items exist [vehicles, power plants, utility products, tools... etc, etc].
Therefore: "Don't Throw the Baby Out With the Bathwater!"
Instead of trying to STOP USE of FOSSIL FUELS [very good means of energy, that are right under our feet!]. We simply need to clean-up, [redirect, reconstitute, reuse, naturally-combine] fossil fuel emissions.
In other words: We CAN clean up atmosphere, oceans and land already incurred pollutions... while... simultaneously limiting [in many ways ceasing] the currently ongoing/continuations of polluting.
My company and many with whom we're connected are working on this; i.e., How to Clean Up Fossil Fuel Pollutions! While, enabling 8 billion humans to have ample forms of energy for continued prosperity and social advancements.
Let's not create new, added problems by Throwing the Baby [i.e., energy filled fossil fuels] Out With the Bath Water. We can scrub these fossil babies' emissions into clean positions... to enable continued energy accessibilities.
Cheers!! - Art
Hippocampus
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Sequestration is difficult and has energy requirements of it own. But totally agree it definitely is part of the solution. However if we continue to release Co2 and NO sequestration will not be enough. We are currently at the cusp of the tundra heating up enough to release massive amounts of heat absorbing gases dramatically
accelerating MMCC. Sequestration takes time. You can only remove CO2 from that part of the atmosphere that passes through the machine.
Pilot sequestration installations have been built and they work. But even if we directed our national budget at sequestration given the volume of atmosphere it will take time so by ITS SELF it isn’t sufficient.
Can see stationary engines/generators driven by H as most helpful in decreasing releases. Can see limited opportunities for H fuel cells decreasing releases as well but for small mobile units such as cars and recreational boats there has to be something better and more user friendly. For now that’s batteries. Yes there will be outliers where a non cooled nor compressed liquid fuel is needed. Best I can see is a carbon neutral outcome. A carbon neutral outcome doesn’t improve the situation. Just prevents it from getting worse at its current pace.
You make the fuel from sequestered material. Be it algae, food waste, industrial waste, whatever. Then you release that carbon. Nothing is improved.
With alt energy producing the energy you leave those source materials to continue to sequester the carbon and take it out of the cycle. Things improve.
As said here multiple times there’s no free lunch. You want energy. At some point that energy needs to come from a non combustion source if you want to stop and reverse MMCC.realize if we didn’t add a single molecule of CO2 MMCC would continue to progress for quite some time.
accelerating MMCC. Sequestration takes time. You can only remove CO2 from that part of the atmosphere that passes through the machine.
Pilot sequestration installations have been built and they work. But even if we directed our national budget at sequestration given the volume of atmosphere it will take time so by ITS SELF it isn’t sufficient.
Can see stationary engines/generators driven by H as most helpful in decreasing releases. Can see limited opportunities for H fuel cells decreasing releases as well but for small mobile units such as cars and recreational boats there has to be something better and more user friendly. For now that’s batteries. Yes there will be outliers where a non cooled nor compressed liquid fuel is needed. Best I can see is a carbon neutral outcome. A carbon neutral outcome doesn’t improve the situation. Just prevents it from getting worse at its current pace.
You make the fuel from sequestered material. Be it algae, food waste, industrial waste, whatever. Then you release that carbon. Nothing is improved.
With alt energy producing the energy you leave those source materials to continue to sequester the carbon and take it out of the cycle. Things improve.
As said here multiple times there’s no free lunch. You want energy. At some point that energy needs to come from a non combustion source if you want to stop and reverse MMCC.realize if we didn’t add a single molecule of CO2 MMCC would continue to progress for quite some time.
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HIPP - Visit: 2011 POPA Report - Simply read... 4th paragraph, page 9. We have devised affordable to construct, quick to build, profitable to operate, employment creating atmospheric CO2 drawdown answer to that paragraph. While sidestepping the "bottlenecks" mentioned therein.
https://www.aps.org/policy/reports/assessments/upload/dac2011.pdf
Sure - there is an awful lot to accomplish, in order to stop MMCC; and, in result... to Save Earth's Ecosphere. Tag!! - We're It! Taint nobody but we humans who are going to devise ways to save our own asssessss and at same time enable a comfortable, livable future for humanity.
The real issue is not can we do IT? The real issue is can we get out from under our greed-filled "BIG-Business-As-Usual mental-confines and spend the money and time it takes To Do - IT!
If not - Then... Oh Crap!! Our grand and great grand kids are unfortunately going really take it "in the shorts"... so to say,
Art
https://www.aps.org/policy/reports/assessments/upload/dac2011.pdf
Sure - there is an awful lot to accomplish, in order to stop MMCC; and, in result... to Save Earth's Ecosphere. Tag!! - We're It! Taint nobody but we humans who are going to devise ways to save our own asssessss and at same time enable a comfortable, livable future for humanity.
The real issue is not can we do IT? The real issue is can we get out from under our greed-filled "BIG-Business-As-Usual mental-confines and spend the money and time it takes To Do - IT!
If not - Then... Oh Crap!! Our grand and great grand kids are unfortunately going really take it "in the shorts"... so to say,
Art
Hippocampus
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Great link. Thanks Art.
Still the technology for DAC is evolving and methods of absorbing changing. At some point you need remove CO2 and the other involved gasses from the atmosphere. That removal needs to be faster than production. If you ascribed to the most recent ICCC report findings you need to do it as quickly as possible. Any and all releases are contra productive and will increase the time to halt and reverse MMCC.
Current situation has meant reflectivity of the earth has changed. Although CO2 favors plant growth and sequestration current loss of snow and ice covering means more heat absorption. City buildings, streets, parking lots, black top does as well. Same with deforestation. We are absorbing more heat due to changes in the earth as well as the air.
Effect of reflectivity is dramatic. Just putting a reflective shade 2’ above our decks dropped inside temperature 10f while in the tropics. Stay inside a white hull or black/dark blue and it’s obvious. Old Nat H was right”there’s two colors for a boat. White-and the wrong color.”
Still the technology for DAC is evolving and methods of absorbing changing. At some point you need remove CO2 and the other involved gasses from the atmosphere. That removal needs to be faster than production. If you ascribed to the most recent ICCC report findings you need to do it as quickly as possible. Any and all releases are contra productive and will increase the time to halt and reverse MMCC.
Current situation has meant reflectivity of the earth has changed. Although CO2 favors plant growth and sequestration current loss of snow and ice covering means more heat absorption. City buildings, streets, parking lots, black top does as well. Same with deforestation. We are absorbing more heat due to changes in the earth as well as the air.
Effect of reflectivity is dramatic. Just putting a reflective shade 2’ above our decks dropped inside temperature 10f while in the tropics. Stay inside a white hull or black/dark blue and it’s obvious. Old Nat H was right”there’s two colors for a boat. White-and the wrong color.”
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RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Here ya go! https://sanbenito.com/corbin-introduces-magnet-powered-motor/?amp
Here ya go! https://sanbenito.com/corbin-introduces-magnet-powered-motor/?amp
Thanks, RT
Sure hope this can be usably expanded upon... Motoflux Principal - Video:
https://www.webbikeworld.com/new-motoflux-magnet-motor-lauded-the-holy-grail-of-rotational-torque/
I don’t think CO2 sequestering will ever work well except for special circumstances. There are a few such systems around the world, but it takes something special like almost free feedstock to make it work,
I was involved on the periphery of a project BP was developing in SOCal. They were going to take petroleum coke from several LA refinery, ship it to Bakersfield where they would partially oxidize it to make a hydrocarbon/CO2 mixture which they would separate and inject the CO2 down wells to keep the petroleum reservoir pressurized. The hydrocarbon mixture would be burned in a cogeneration gas turbine system to produce electric power.
Once the early numbers came in, it wasn’t even close to being economical.
David
I was involved on the periphery of a project BP was developing in SOCal. They were going to take petroleum coke from several LA refinery, ship it to Bakersfield where they would partially oxidize it to make a hydrocarbon/CO2 mixture which they would separate and inject the CO2 down wells to keep the petroleum reservoir pressurized. The hydrocarbon mixture would be burned in a cogeneration gas turbine system to produce electric power.
Once the early numbers came in, it wasn’t even close to being economical.
David
Hippocampus
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One hurdle sequestration doesn’t face as much as ore solutions is siting. Given there’s sufficiently air movement and by brownian motion you have more open opportunities. Of course scrubbing out the CO2 at its has definite benefits as the CO2 concentration is highest there. But to cleanse the atmosphere as a whole variations by locale aren’t that severe to my limited understanding.
So you can place sequestration devices in Iceland driven by geothermal. Or a desert next to its own field of solar. On shore opposite wind turbines or a mountain. Or river driven by hydro. Energy transmission losses would be minimized. Power 100% “green”.
So you can place sequestration devices in Iceland driven by geothermal. Or a desert next to its own field of solar. On shore opposite wind turbines or a mountain. Or river driven by hydro. Energy transmission losses would be minimized. Power 100% “green”.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Apparently the earth is running out of helium so yet another use of all that hydrogen we'll be producing is:
https://odditymall.com/float-a-poo-helium-dog-waste-disposal-system
Apparently the earth is running out of helium so yet another use of all that hydrogen we'll be producing is:
https://odditymall.com/float-a-poo-helium-dog-waste-disposal-system
Nick14
Guru
:lol:
:lol::lol::lol:That's hysterical! And brilliant!!
Another benefit of using hydrogen is that it's flammable, so if one of the poo-balloons gets hit by lightning, it'll explode and create colorful fireworks!
Nick14
Guru
Great idea! It would be perfect for that use!!
Attachments
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
There ARE several alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels the real problem IMO is how do you store and carry it around.
The "easy" thing about hydrocarbons is you just get a container and fill 'er up since the infrastructure for production, transportation and storage has been in place for decades+.
As mentioned, hydrogen and electricity, to name two, have their own unique problems to get that energy to the consumer.
The whole concept of how we actually use energy requires a complete re-think. Finding a viable alternate energy source will be more than "Hey we can convert this device to use magic-fuel-X."
There ARE several alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels the real problem IMO is how do you store and carry it around.
The "easy" thing about hydrocarbons is you just get a container and fill 'er up since the infrastructure for production, transportation and storage has been in place for decades+.
As mentioned, hydrogen and electricity, to name two, have their own unique problems to get that energy to the consumer.
The whole concept of how we actually use energy requires a complete re-think. Finding a viable alternate energy source will be more than "Hey we can convert this device to use magic-fuel-X."
HopCar
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Back in high school science class I learned you could make hydrogen by putting zinc into hydrochloric acid. Of course I had to make hydrogen balloons. Plastic garbage bags, zinc from the boat yard trash bin and Muriatic acid from the hardware store. Fill the bag with hydrogen, tie the bag closed with a long string, tie a sparkler to the string, light the sparkler and release at night. Never blew myself up. I never claimed to be smart.
BruceK
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A Japanese company is planning to spend big $$$ to explore making hydrogen from coal, in Australia. Probably more acceptable if we first export the coal to Japan, burning it there allegedly can`t cause a problem for the world, unlike if burnt here.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03...for-latrobe-valley-coal-to-hydrogen/102061154
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03...for-latrobe-valley-coal-to-hydrogen/102061154
GoneFarrell
Guru
HopC,
I ran the chemistry lab in high school. Yeah, H2 was a thing back then. We lit off a couple H2 balloons in class. Was told not to do that again.
I ran the chemistry lab in high school. Yeah, H2 was a thing back then. We lit off a couple H2 balloons in class. Was told not to do that again.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
I worked with hydrogen for 35 years blowing glass. VERY volatile. Normally, before one attached a regulator to a compressed gas cylinder you quickly cracked the valve to make sure it was clear of any foreign matter. Not so with hydrogen. The friction, alone, of the compressed gas through the valve could cause ignition. Mixed with oxygen it DID give a nice hot flame. Clean burn, as well.
I worked with hydrogen for 35 years blowing glass. VERY volatile. Normally, before one attached a regulator to a compressed gas cylinder you quickly cracked the valve to make sure it was clear of any foreign matter. Not so with hydrogen. The friction, alone, of the compressed gas through the valve could cause ignition. Mixed with oxygen it DID give a nice hot flame. Clean burn, as well.
HopCar
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Rufus, I think we’d all like to know what you did that involved hydrogen and blowing glass.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. HC. Created scientific glass instruments for National Research Council of Canada.
Eg:
Mostly one-off pieces not available in catalogues, purpose designed and built at request of scientific staff. For the most part borosilicate (Pyrex) was quite suitable BUT there was a demand for quartz fabrication, as well.
A propane or methane + oxygen mix was the fuel source of choice but when more heat was called for hydrogen/oxygen was the source. Sat on my fat ass for 35 years performing miracles and burning myself. GREAT fun.
Probably most obscure creation was a milking machine for lactating rabbits. Not a complex piece but right now YOU'RE thinking "What the h*** was THAT for?" Hahaha...
NOT rabbit related...
Mr. HC. Created scientific glass instruments for National Research Council of Canada.
Eg:
Mostly one-off pieces not available in catalogues, purpose designed and built at request of scientific staff. For the most part borosilicate (Pyrex) was quite suitable BUT there was a demand for quartz fabrication, as well.
A propane or methane + oxygen mix was the fuel source of choice but when more heat was called for hydrogen/oxygen was the source. Sat on my fat ass for 35 years performing miracles and burning myself. GREAT fun.
Probably most obscure creation was a milking machine for lactating rabbits. Not a complex piece but right now YOU'RE thinking "What the h*** was THAT for?" Hahaha...
NOT rabbit related...
Greetings,
Mr. HC. Created scientific glass instruments for National Research Council of Canada.
Eg:
Mostly one-off pieces not available in catalogues, purpose designed and built at request of scientific staff. For the most part borosilicate (Pyrex) was quite suitable BUT there was a demand for quartz fabrication, as well.
A propane or methane + oxygen mix was the fuel source of choice but when more heat was called for hydrogen/oxygen was the source. Sat on my fat ass for 35 years performing miracles and burning myself. GREAT fun.
Probably most obscure creation was a milking machine for lactating rabbits. Not a complex piece but right now YOU'RE thinking "What the h*** was THAT for?" Hahaha...
NOT rabbit related...
Verrrry interesting RT. Thanks for sharing.
Bottom photo; picture of Einstein's mind artistically depicted in blown glass channels??
Again, thanks!
Jeff F
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Inside the Global Race to Turn Water Into Fuel https://nyti.ms/3FhkZsG
Sorry behind a paywall, but it's talking about using green hydrogen to power iron ore mining in WA, replacing 1 billion litres of diesel annually.
Lots of big money chasing this.
Sorry behind a paywall, but it's talking about using green hydrogen to power iron ore mining in WA, replacing 1 billion litres of diesel annually.
Lots of big money chasing this.
Global access to Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral gasoline, diesel and jet fuels are a few to several years off. We can already make-it/do-it... mass production techniques need to be perfected, then upsized.
This fuel source's liquid fuel types all are fungible and drop-in ready to be mixed into and burned with refined fossil fuels.
This new-source, non pollution-addition liquid hydrocarbon fuel technique is one of several techniques [other than just fuels] required to Save Earth's Ecosphere(TM)
This fuel source's liquid fuel types all are fungible and drop-in ready to be mixed into and burned with refined fossil fuels.
This new-source, non pollution-addition liquid hydrocarbon fuel technique is one of several techniques [other than just fuels] required to Save Earth's Ecosphere(TM)
JRO
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So… It’s been quiet here for a while and it’s become hard to ignore the facts and realities displayed in simple terms out in public view. The lot of feisty old naysayers have gone off to better places so NOW are we all enthusiastically accepting Green Hydrogen Power as the immediate answer to our global energy needs?
I’m thrilled to be alive to witness the most important advancement in world history.
I’m thrilled to be alive to witness the most important advancement in world history.
twistedtree
Guru
Cool. What's happened in the last 2 years since you proclaimed that it would replace coal, oil, hydro, etc,?
