Line Handling Accident

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Never did like that way of cleating a line.
 
That hole in the bottom of the cleat is NOT for passing the eye through. It's purpose is to reduce the amount of metal used in the cleat and therefore reduce the price. Also a line correctly sized to the cleat won't fit through there on many cleats. Years ago my father did about the same thing to one of his fingers, didn't cut anything off but did sever tendons, nerves, etc. Basically lost the use of the digit, it just flopped around. He'd have been better off of had just been cut off.
It's not just a personal safety problem, with the eye passed through the cleat there's pretty much no way you can release the line with a big load on it. You'd have to cut it loose in an emergency.
Instead of looping them through like that, I splice my eyes so that they barely fit over the cleat. You can usually pull in enough slack to lift the eye over one horn and release, and they don't come off by themselves. If you have premade eyes that are too big, you can add a whipping to reduce thier diameter. Of course a line made up with a cleat hitch, no eye at all, can be untied no matter how much strain is on it.
I've seen the eye-through-the-hole thing recommended in boating text books, I pretty much stop reading at that point as the author just proved he doesn't know what he's talking about and I can't rely on anything else he writes.
 
jgwinks said:
That hole in the bottom of the cleat is NOT for passing the eye through. It's purpose is to reduce the amount of metal used in the cleat and therefore reduce the price. Also a line correctly sized to the cleat won't fit through there on many cleats. Years ago my father did about the same thing to one of his fingers, didn't cut anything off but did sever tendons, nerves, etc. Basically lost the use of the digit, it just flopped around. He'd have been better off of had just been cut off.
It's not just a personal safety problem, with the eye passed through the cleat there's pretty much no way you can release the line with a big load on it. You'd have to cut it loose in an emergency.
Instead of looping them through like that, I splice my eyes so that they barely fit over the cleat. You can usually pull in enough slack to lift the eye over one horn and release, and they don't come off by themselves. If you have premade eyes that are too big, you can add a whipping to reduce thier diameter. Of course a line made up with a cleat hitch, no eye at all, can be untied no matter how much strain is on it.
I've seen the eye-through-the-hole thing recommended in boating text books, I pretty much stop reading at that point as the author just proved he doesn't know what he's talking about and I can't rely on anything else he writes.
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There's logic to your post, but real world observation does not agree with you. Almost everyone passes the eye through the cleat and over at least one horn.
 
ABfish said:
There's logic to your post, but real world observation does not agree with you. Almost everyone passes the eye through the cleat and over at least one horn.
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I agree most everyone does it that way, but does that make it safe and correct? I think that was the point of the original post.
 
ABfish said:
There's logic to your post, but real world observation does not agree with you. Almost everyone passes the eye through the cleat and over at least one horn.
Click to expand...

Well, I certainly wont be doing that. At least not when things are moving quickly and I have to get the boat against the dock in a hurry.

The take-way I got was: When in a hurry and things are moving quickly, just drop the eye over the cleat. When everything stops and the boat is secure and you can catch your breath, you can (if you wish) re-run the line through the eye of the cleat.
 
Dropping an eye over or through a cleat on a surging line is wrong from practical aspects as well as safety. You have a time limited opportunity to get it done, and no possibility of snubbing the surging line, it will simply and suddenly fetch up taught stressing everything needlessly.

You should take the end of the line onto the dock, hook under one cleat horn at an angle, and apply tension to the tail until the line and whatever it is attached to is under control. Once everything has settled and stopped moving, you can cleat it however you wish at your leisure.
 
ABfish said:
There's logic to your post, but real world observation does not agree with you. Almost everyone passes the eye through the cleat and over at least one horn.
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Not in my world of professional captains and experienced cruisers. But with part time boaters it's true until they learn better or the hard way.

Thus post #2.
 
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psneeld said:
Not in my world of professional captains and experienced cruisers. But with part time boaters it's true until they learn better or the hard way.

Thus post #2.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
A post worth reading for sure. Thanks for sharing it. Although most of my lines have a spliced eye on one end, my favorite dock lines have no eyes. They are simply whipped on both ends so one must use a cleat hitch on the boat and on the dock. It also makes it easy to adjust the lines from either the dock or from the boat.
 
Thank you for posting. Yet another reason I don’t like spliced eyes in dock lines. It’s been drilled in to my head don’t ever put a loop over a cleat on your boat. If it’s loaded it may make it impossible to undo without leaving the boat or trying to cut it with a knife. Both are slow when the boat next to you is on fire or there’s a need to get out of Dodge quickly.
Loops only allow adjustments at one end.
Loops cause injury.

A simple line with whipped ends is cheap and cheerful.
Holiday wishes to all.
 
jgwinks said:
That hole in the bottom of the cleat is NOT for passing the eye through. It's purpose is to reduce the amount of metal used in the cleat and therefore reduce the price. Also a line correctly sized to the cleat won't fit through there on many cleats . . . It's not just a personal safety problem, with the eye passed through the cleat there's pretty much no way you can release the line with a big load on it. You'd have to cut it loose in an emergency . . .
I've seen the eye-through-the-hole thing recommended in boating text books, I pretty much stop reading at that point as the author just proved he doesn't know what he's talking about and I can't rely on anything else he writes.
Click to expand...

Exactly. A spliced loop at the end of a dockline can be useful for securing to a tall, large piling. but has no business on a cleat, whether that cleat be on deck, or on the dock.
 
The spliced eye end is the first one attached to a cleat, either on boat or dock, problem solved.
 
Soo-Valley said:
The spliced eye end is the first one attached to a cleat, either on boat or dock, problem solved.
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Not really. A spliced line is hard to remove under tension. If it is on the boat it makes it hard to cast off if the pier is on fire. If it is on the dock it makes it hard to release a boat from the dock.

I do have spliced lines. It's a compromise. The spliced end is ALWAYS on the boat. Meaning that I can always release the boat from the dock. In my roulette wheel of probabilities that makes sense for me. It may not make sense for anyone else.
~A
 
Never say never until you have seen every boat and mooring situation. All six dock lines on both sides of my boat have the eye through the cleat and back over both horns because they are permanently attached there. On my small boat, the lines when used, which is extremely rare on this lift-kept boat, are tended from the pier, because, you simply cannot readily access the cleats on the inches wide side deck and way up on the bow - those lines are lead all the way back to the cockpit. On my GB42, I would NEVER have done this; different boat and mooring situation altogether.
 
ABfish said:
There's logic to your post, but real world observation does not agree with you. Almost everyone passes the eye through the cleat and over at least one horn.
Click to expand...


Like others have said... NEVER, and don't know anyone that does. Run the eye on the cleat of the boat before docking and use the bitter end to put over a dock cleat or piling, bring it back to the boat an use a simple cleat hitch to secure. The eye just stays put.



Also, could argue to have a quick disconnect hitch as the last line to be released from the dock... while you're on the boat. Easy.


Accidents like this are a real shame.
 
jgwinks said:
I agree most everyone does it that way, but does that make it safe and correct? I think that was the point of the original post.
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I would only use it that was if it's a line that stays permanently on the dock. Overall it's not a good practice.
 
My home-slip in SF had two floating fingers. I typically ran springlines from midship cleat forward and midship cleat aftward so would have two loop-ends on my midship cleats. Is the collective wisdom that having loops over the cleat is improper, that there should be two free-ends with cleat hitches and two ends of line coiled on deck?

What is the wisdom for two lines on one cleat, vessel or dockside? Can be difficult and slow to determine which is the "top" like vs bottom line. And let's not even start down the rabbit hole of too many wraps on a cleat hitch...

Seriously though. As Rgano stated above, certain situations call for certain solutions. For home-slip, makes sense to me to have a springline loop made up to drop over a cleat as a brake so captain has confidence one line is fast when docking.

Peter
 
Same as Weebles, the only reasonable scenario at my home slip is two lines on my midship cleat, one a forward spring and one an aft spring. There's no way to do that without using the loops on the dock lines.

I can't buy in to importance of being able to cast off from the dock as quickly as possible. There are so many other things that must be done, such as disconnecting shore power, that being able to release the dock lines in seconds becomes a small part of the equation.

The lesson to me, and I know this from many years in the construction business, is to never place your fingers where they can be trapped or pinched. I lost a couple of fingernails early in my career before this really sunk in.

Throw the loop over the cleat, without placing your fingers in harms way. And make sure the boat is not moving or that there is plenty of slack in the line when you do so.
 
I pass the eye through the cleat and over the horns and secure the other end to the boat cleat in the traditional manner, after the boat has stopped moving.

One of the things that seems lost on many boaters is the importance of stopping the boat first with the engine(s), securing it from moving forward or backwards, and then properly setting up dock lines.

Ted
 
The accident and follow discussion has been an eye opener for me and I say Thanks to ABFish for bringing this to our attention.
I never thought much about the Do's and Don'ts of line handling but have to admit I do place eye through the cleat opening in many situations. In the future I will be more diligent and instruct others when assisting.
My general tendencies ( that will be reinforced) is to simply drop the eye of a spring line over the cleat when backing into our home port slip. Once settled into the slip and roughly stationary I will attach other lines some with eye passed through the cleat and eye around both horns.
I tend to use a simple eye over cleat when aboard the boat at home port and I tie up more securely and further away from the dock when leaving for an e tended time, more frequently using eye through cleat & over horns.
When traveling we generally will attach lines to the boat and take bitter end ashore to tie to cleat initially.
I frequently will do a more permanent & secure tie with strategic lines attached to boat and ran ashore, through a cleat or ring and back to the boat being secure with a cleat hitch. That makes casting off easier and the last 2 lines released from aboard.
I also like the idea of asking unknown people offering to assist our landing, to simply drop the eye over a designated cleat and the crew member aboard controls and can cleat the line aboard as needed.
 
I always attach my dock lines this way and nothing above gives me a reason to change. The loop through the cleat is always done well ahead of docking so no possible load. For an unattended docking of our rather high sided boat, we can lasso a cleat or pass a line around a piling and have enough room on the cleat so secure the line for temporary tie up until someone can get off on to the dock.

I like to pass the free end of my dock lines back to the boat and put a second hitch on the boat cleat. This keeps them off the dock. For unattended departure, I un-cleat and leave the lines just hooked around the cleats so they can be released from aboard. The lines are only like that for a few minutes and we are departing so I'm watching everything.


Quick cast off for fires? Come on. I'm not going down in the engine room to do the stuff I need to do to start if someone is burning next to us. As said above, there is also the shore power cord, etc. No, I'm running up the dock with my cell phone to call the fire department and insurance company. Can you imagine the chaos if every boat tried to leave a burning marina at the same time?
 
The only time I'll pass a line through a cleat like that is if the line is being set on the loop end first, that way it can't be accidentally pulled off while getting it ashore, etc. If the loop is being placed over a cleat last, it just goes over the cleat, never through it. And anyone doing this is told many times to make sure they never, ever, put a finger inside the loop.
 
AlanT said:
Not really. A spliced line is hard to remove under tension. If it is on the boat it makes it hard to cast off if the pier is on fire. If it is on the dock it makes it hard to release a boat from the dock.
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If burning piers is a recurring problem for you, I'd pick my piers more carefully.

The only real danger in cleating this way is doing it while the line may come under tension. I've never seen a reason to do that. There is a situation that is quite common, at least in northern waters, and that is tying off to a bull rail. There are plenty of opportunities to get a hand or finger stuck under a line coming under tension and no great alternatives. The line has to be run over the rail and back underneath before any arresting tension can be put on it.
 
I think this serves as a reminder of reasons not to allow your "friends" to assist. You and any normal crew, whether spouse or otherwise, should have a good system that is safe and protects you. You've trained yourselves, but you haven't trained guests who may accompany you and want to jump in and assist. They don't know your normal methods and protections. They are often the ones who get hurt by lines or docks or moving too soon or other avoidable injuries.
 
I had a similar experience when I was running a liberty launch in Nome. Came back to the ship in four foot Norton Sound "chop" and called the bridge to swing the ship around so that we could come along side in the lee. All passengers were inside while we waited, but a junior officer came out before I was ready to tie off. He decided he could tie off the stern on the rise before I was really in position. He's the boss. Popped a finger off, which rolled along the deck and went overboard. Nothing to sew back on.
 
We have cement docks. Not much to burn. I use bow and stern dock lines and two spring lines cleated to the boat and tied off on the dock for adjustment. One spring line with a loop is hung over a protrusion on my steps. We are an end tie. When we come in in a breeze, I have my helper stand amid ships to grab the spring line and drop it over a cleat before going to the swim step to secure first the stern line and them the bow line. Lastly another spring line is added. This one goes through a lead in the sun deck wall to a cleat inside in the corner. I usually let the line coil in the fishing cockpit. All loops are on the boat and all are just laid over the cleats as they are tight fit. We are in a protected marina so its all very smooth. Worst case is a strong wind blowing on my hind quarter. We can blow into the dock with some inertia with our 65,000 pounds in motion. I've been planning to reverse my normal MO by turning my rudders away from the dock and using the bow thruster and an engine pop to slow my drift one of these days. I carry five large fenders on the dock side and so far no damage just those occasional seconds of "man we are coming in hard".
 
Boat fires can be bad enough to melt or carch adjacent boats on fire. Concrete docks may or may not help.

Even just pushing out the adjacent boats can keep the fire from jumping and damaging more than 1 boat. Sure it all depends, especially on how quick fire teams show up and how bad the fire is prior to being able to do something (same applies to fighting onboard fires).

Fire axes sure have their use, especially with all the poorly tied up boats.
 
On our boat, the loop stays on the boat and is attached to a cleat. Use whatever method you want here. For 30 years, on our 35’ sailboat, the loop was merely dropped over the cleat. Never a problem with having them “jump” off. On our trawler, the line comes in through the hawse hole and is looped onto the adjacent cleat.

The bitter end of the dock line is led to the dock and secured with a cleat hitch. If you don’t know how to tie a simple cleat hitch, learn. The rest of the line is then coiled and placed out of the way to prevent a tripping hazard. This might be a Flemish Coil, the proverbial Michigan Yacht Braid or any other method as long as it is safe.

As for being able to leave the slip while handling the line from the boat, just prior to casting off, undo the cleat hitches, lead the lines back to the boat and one at a time release and retrieve them and off you go.
 
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