List of “good” inverters please

[Sea Word]

I will expand a bit. My professional world includes designing industrial equipment to IEC and UL standards. I spend a fair amount of time pouring over spec documenting rqmts for fire enclosures around equipment and something called single fault analysis. Not saying magnum did not do this; but a management group that does not fix it is near criminal. Maybe it is criminal if it goes to fraud. Does this box have either a CE , Marine UL, VDE, CSA or any legit mark? If so, the fault path could lead elsewhere. UL charges many tens of thousands to perform a safety analysis. But note there are near a dozen companies that are allowed to test to UL standards. OTOH , if the box in question has NO safety marks on it, its buyer beware in the US.

I’d be quite surprised if any expensive inverter such as these would have no testing house marks on it at all. So, are you saying that if it has UL compliance that this shifts the liability onto UL and the mfg is off the hook?

 

[diver dave]

I am saying at this point,with so many fires/failures, the manuf. should have root caused this mess, and perhaps recalled fielded units.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have been told, the shorter the battery positive and negative wires to the inverter the better off you will be.

 

[foggysail]

So, now that I have my bitchen inverter, where do I mount it? I’m hesitant to mount in engine room in case moisture or smoke or something happens in there. But I’m hesitant to mount it in salon where noise, heat and apparently FIRE risk is an issue.

I have no electronics in our bilge. I dedicated a cabinet in our salon for a 1kw Freedom inverter (24v input), Xantrex 5012 battery charger, 3Kw true sine wave inverter, Victron 70150 or 15070 MTTP for my solar and auto switching circuitry to change from dock to inverter power plus 5 disconnect battery switches. Early this season I will also find space in the cabinet enclosure to accommodate a 3KVA isolation transformer. The transformer will essentially allow converting one leg of the inverter to a grounded conductor which I cannot do now.

THERE IS NO NOISE FROM MY CABINET! If ever there was a fire.......which I seriously doubt will ever occur.......I would much rather have the fire in the salon and NOT the bilge, One other thing I should mention. All of my batteries are properly fused within a couple of feet from the batteries. I could not get the fuses closer than that

 

[foggysail]

I have been told, the shorter the battery positive and negative wires to the inverter the better off you will be.

That entirely depends on the wire size used to connect the inverter.Remember, a .6 volt drop in each wire (to & from) represents about 10% power loss just in wiring.

 

[stubones99]

Good input, thanks. 12V halogens were trouble? Must have had dimmers?

Halogens need high voltages to light and that means a step-up transformer or power supply can cause a high-frequency RF noise that would interfere with other stuff, Often, you can hear the high pitched whine off the power supply when it is running.

 

[syjos]

I have been told, the shorter the battery positive and negative wires to the inverter the better off you will be.

Yes, that's one of the critical installation requirements by most of the major inverter manufacturers.

They provide a cable length chart with cable gauge requirement, along with the fuse size in the installation manual.

 

[Sea Word]

Halogens need high voltages to light and that means a step-up transformer or power supply can cause a high-frequency RF noise that would interfere with other stuff, Often, you can hear the high pitched whine off the power supply when it is running.

Why would you have halogens on board? They waste a lot of heat. They also release gamma rays and UV other weird stuff.

 

[ksanders]

I’ve a,ways used xantrex inverters because they are true sine wave, quality units with low parasitic draw. But, I’m sure they aren’t the only ones. What are some other trusted brands or models? I’m looking to pick up a used 2500 watt unit. dont care if it has charging ability because we won’t often see shore power and I’m installing a large solar setup.

I have had GREAT success from the xantrex SW series of inverters. My current SW3000 inverter is 8 years old and has been 100% reliable

 

[diver dave]

Halogens need high voltages to light and that means a step-up transformer or power supply can cause a high-frequency RF noise that would interfere with other stuff, Often, you can hear the high pitched whine off the power supply when it is running.

Halogens are incandescent with a HP Halogen gas added to reduce envelope darkening due to tungsten evaporation. Very common in 12V species.

Are you thinking fluorescent or short arc Xenon (HID) or mercury vapor or ??

 

[diver dave]

Why would you have halogens on board? They waste a lot of heat. They also release gamma rays and UV other weird stuff.

Lots of heat, YES. The rest of the story, NO.

 

[stubones99]

Older boats were loaded with halogen lights for some reason...

I was simply responding to the OP saying that his halogen lights caused radio noise, not recommending switching back to Halogen lights from far more energy efficient LED lights.

 

[ranger58sb]

So, now that I have my bitchen inverter, where do I mount it? I’m hesitant to mount in engine room in case moisture or smoke or something happens in there. But I’m hesitant to mount it in salon where noise, heat and apparently FIRE risk is an issue.

Does your manual not provide guidance about how far from batteries, what size cable, other environmental issues (ignition protection, wet locations, etc.)?

-Chris

 

[Tom.B]

They also release gamma rays and UV other weird stuff.

Isn’t this how The Hulk came to be?

 

[sunchaser]

Where to mount inverters? Close to the batteries, fresh circulalating air readily available, within the manufacturers heat range and where you have the easily accessed space. Ours is in the ER.

 

[diver dave]

From the most recent Magnum website:

MS2812
The MS Series Inverter/Charger – a pure sine wave inverter designed specifically for the most demanding mobile, backup, and off-grid applications. The MS Series Inverter/Charger is powerful, easy-to-use, and best of all, cost effective.

Power Factor Corrected (PFC) Charger: Our PFC charger is built into all of our inverter/chargers. It uses less energy from a generator than a standard charger – using 25-30% less AC current than standard chargers.

Safe and reliable: The MS2000, MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL Listed to the stringent requirements of UL/cUL 458 for mobile use and the MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL Listed UL 1741 and CSA C22.2 #107.1-01 for renewable energy installations. All models also meet KKK-A-1822E standards for emergency vehicle use.


So, what does all that mean?

First off: this is the current product list; I have no idea what older product revs claim.
Second: ETL did the safety testing. They have been around quite a while, and I have had them do work on other stuff of mine. I don't otherwise have an opinion plus or minus.
Third: The CSA 22.2 demands fire safety, to the point where it should be a very low risk that the device will allow the escape of fire. Clearly, what we are seeing in the field challenges this. I will also say, that safety reviews cover "SINGLE FAULT FAILURES". So, if two critical parts go bad, there can be a serious issue and still pass the intent of the standard.
Here is the exact index content, relevant to fire and human safety.

The purpose of the requirements of this standard is to ensure that HAZARDS to the OPERATOR and the surrounding area are reduced to a tolerable level. Requirements for protection against particular types of HAZARD are given in Clauses 6 to 13, as follows:

a) electric shock or burn (see Clause 6);

b) mechanical HAZARDS (see Clauses 7 and 8);

c) spread of fire from the equipment (see Clause 9);

d) excessive temperature (see Clause 10);

e) effects of fluids and fluid pressure (see Clause 11);

f) effects of radiation, including lasers sources, and sonic and ultrasonic pressure (see Clause 12);

g) liberated gases, explosion and implosion (see Clause 13).


Notice the words "to a tolerable level". What you may find tolerable, may not be the same as the test lab or the manufacturers idea of tolerable.

Last note: I see the UL458 listing. This has some marine related content. So, very likely the instructions say do not install in a classed atmosphere. A gas boat bilge would not be a good mounting location, IMO.

 

[Sea Word]

I need to fully examine the mastervolt manual but so far all i have found is a wire size recommendation of 2/0. My salon location could be right above the batteries below, probably 4’ run so pretty close.

 

[DDW]

2/0 probably fine for a 4 kw 24V inverter. That's about what you'd use for a 2 kw 12V inverter, this is twice the wattage but also twice the voltage so the same current.

 

[OldDan1943]

I need to fully examine the mastervolt manual but so far all i have found is a wire size recommendation of 2/0. My salon location could be right above the batteries below, probably 4’ run so pretty close.

What that manual is saying is "not less than2/0"
Is it possible to put it closer to the batteries, ie in the same compartment as the batteries?

 

[syjos]

Here are pictures of my burnt Magnum 2812 Inverter.

 

[sunchaser]

Here are pictures of my burnt Magnum 2812 Inverter.

is that well ventilated with abundant circulating air space?

 

[syjos]

It has large inlets and a thermostatically controlled fan to vent hot air outside at 90 degrees F.


The inverter is designed to shut the inverter off if overheated.

 

[Sea Word]

What that manual is saying is "not less than2/0"
Is it possible to put it closer to the batteries, ie in the same compartment as the batteries?

It could be placed right on top of batteries, but then it would be in the engine room where I’m not sure I want it. If I put it on the floor in the salon upstairs, I can gethe cables to maybe 3’

 

[OldDan1943]

Physically on top of the batteries? Nope, I speak from no experience but, it doesn't sound like a good idea. There must be a recommendation minimum distance between the inverter and the batteries.
Got to secure the inverter to something solid like a bulkhead or the floor (sole) or the overhead.
I encourage you to check with someone with all the fancy letters behind their name.
The American Tug has 3 compartments. The ER, the tank room and the aft lazaret. My inverter, battery charger and batteries are in the tank room. The battery charger is secured to the forward bulkhead and the inverter is secured to the overhead, by design. I take NO credit.

 

[diver dave]

Here are pictures of my burnt Magnum 2812 Inverter.

Looks like a bit of an overheat! Did anyone analyze the bad parts? Note that smoke is an allowed response to a fault. But not any dripping material actually on fire.
Note that the standards don’t deal with component reliability, per se.
Basically, a hazard containment philosophy.

 

[Simi 60]

Been happy with our Victron 5000w/120a with 3 years of 24/7 usage and zero issues.

Saying that we still have the old victron 60amp charger in the spares cupboard that used to have a dead 3000w yum cha inverter with it.
I should get a 3000w victron inverter connected as a spare, flick the switch and go type setup for the day that the 5000 loses its smoke.

Add: silly pricing.
A 3000w victron inverter only is $1700
A 3000w/70a inverter charger is $1756.

Better off selling the 60a charger and putting it towards a new combo.

 

[Sea Word]

Physically on top of the batteries? Nope, I speak from no experience but, it doesn't sound like a good idea. There must be a recommendation minimum distance between the inverter and the batteries.
Got to secure the inverter to something solid like a bulkhead or the floor (sole) or the overhead.
I encourage you to check with someone with all the fancy letters behind their name.
The American Tug has 3 compartments. The ER, the tank room and the aft lazaret. My inverter, battery charger and batteries are in the tank room. The battery charger is secured to the forward bulkhead and the inverter is secured to the overhead, by design. I take NO credit.

I would t put them actually on top of the batteries, but just stating that it would be possible to get them that close if it were necessary. I would t want to because of acid discharge vapors getting into the electronics.

 

[foggysail]

6-7 years ago I lost a Freedom inverter/charger. The thing exploded into fire and I firmly believe that that old unit had a design deficiency. What happened in my case is that the Freedom was in the process of charging my battery banks with very high charging currents approaching 100 amperes. So I decided to change the banks using a so called ‘make before break’ battery switch. My belief is that switch certainly did NOT MAKE BEFORE BREAK causing the current to be interrupted

What is important switching DC currents, much different than switching AC currents is that there must be protective circuitry to accommodate for any inductance in the current’s path. YOU CANNOT INTERRUPT DC CURRENT without generating potentially destructive voltages if there is inductance in the current’s path. Older style automotive ignition coils worked by interrupting a DC current with the ignition points. AC has a lesser problem because the current will change to ‘zero every 180 degrees.

Could this be the reason why the Magnums are burning up? Food for thought.

 

[Sea Word]

6-7 years ago I lost a Freedom inverter/charger. The thing exploded into fire and I firmly believe that that old unit had a design deficiency. What happened in my case is that the Freedom was in the process of charging my battery banks with very high charging currents approaching 100 amperes. So I decided to change the banks using a so called ‘make before break’ battery switch. My belief is that switch certainly did NOT MAKE BEFORE BREAK causing the current to be interrupted

What is important switching DC currents, much different than switching AC currents is that there must be protective circuitry to accommodate for any inductance in the current’s path. YOU CANNOT INTERRUPT DC CURRENT without generating potentially destructive voltages if there is inductance in the current’s path. Older style automotive ignition coils worked by interrupting a DC current with the ignition points. AC has a lesser problem because the current will change to ‘zero every 180 degrees.

Could this be the reason why the Magnums are burning up? Food for thought.

First thought is no, because several stories were from users who had theirs burn up while they were asleep or otherwise not switching, switching was automatic somehow.

 

[syjos]

I don't like to put electronics in the engine room.

I've sold many, many inverters and battery chargers to clients who suffered an exhaust or water hose leak and the steam ruined the electronic devices in the engine room.

The only electronics I have in the ER is the Balmar Max Charge Regulator which appears sealed in some sort of resin.

My house batteries are in a sealed, vented to the outside, box under the settee in the saloon. The Victron inverter/charger and isolation transformer are under the settee next to the battery box with their own fan ventilation system vented to outside.

Having the batteries in the salon might prolong bilge pump running in the event of a flooding below. Or not.