Maneuvering a Single in Reverse

[mvweebles]

There is much less wear and tear on a thruster than a tranny.



Most marine tranny guys will tell you thrusters save the tranny, by decades.

Maybe a kind way to nudge a poor helmsman into considering a bow thruster? Perhaps a boat neighbor?

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Maybe a kind way to nudge a poor helmsman into considering a bow thruster? Perhaps a boat neighbor?

Peter

lol, even a thruster won't help some. just this fall i saw a couple in a pretty new looking cutwater really struggle getting in and out of a dock. twin outboards, plus thruster. poor guys wife was trying so hard to keep the boat from getting scarred up. i'd hate to be his dock neighbor.

 

[psneeld]

While thrusters are great...they are a tool...and more tools often is better.

BUT....just witnessed a guy on a 40 or so sailboat with a thruster, screw up a bow in docking. No current, slight breeze from astern.

Didn't hold his turn, then didn't make it sharp enough and wound up against his first outer piling with only about 10-12 feet of boat in the slip and was at a 45 degree angle.

He tried using the thruster to lever him in but no dice with more than 2/3 of the boat hanging out and a wind from abaft.

He should have used hard left rudder with a couple short shots of power ....with or without the thruster...to pivot him in...it would have been a less than perfect landing, but salvageable with no damage. But didn't and almost wound up broadside to the downwind row of boats. While backing out, he thankfully did use the thruster and made it out without hitting anything...no way that would have happened had he not used the thruster with his skill set.

So now the marina had to find him another slip....etc...etc... when improper use of the tools he had caused the issue.

I know this may not help the OP entirely...but I tell it to show why people have to understand their boats performance with and without the thruster and understand it is NOT the go to tool for easing all docking or backing or any maneuver.

Practicing with and without using one's thruster probably will help in the long run.

 

[backinblue]

It's fine to practice w/o thusters when conditions permit, otherwise use them as they are meant to be used, with short bursts to align the boat the way you want. The only time I got in trouble was practicing w/o thrusters when the current was running stronger than usual. If I had used my thrusters, I would have been fine. Yes thrusters may fail at times like anything else on a boat including an engine. As somebody else asked, I wonder how many twin engine boats routinely practice docking with only 1 engine running. I would bet not very many as compared to boats with thrusters who try to dock w/o them. Same theory, you may not always have 2 working engines.

 

[psneeld]

Missing my point that a failed docking was BECAUSE of using thruster which DIDN'T do the job and the rudder would have.

I also said how the thrusters saved the day for a person with less than great skills.

Had the wind been blowing him off the dock he probably would have been fine either way.

Knowing when NOT to use or depend on a thruster is just as important as the other way around.

Seen it way too often to think otherwise.

 

[mvweebles]

.....or know when to abort a docking and reload.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

.....or know when to abort a docking and reload.

Peter

Often true....

But...I see many people panic and just give up...which can screw up a lot of plans when they won't use that or "their" slip.

And like this abort...he nearly t-boned himself on a lot of other boats.

The landing I described was normal in a lot of ways...been there myself plenty for various reasons.

He just tried the wrong tool...don't know why but all my training experience says he was so used to or trusting of others saying how great thrusters are...he didn't know his own rudder and main were the tool for the job.

Had he used them it would have looked like a halfway decent docking.

 

[mvweebles]

My favorite docking fail was years ago
I lived aboard a uniflite ACMY 42 near Candlestick Park in SF, one of the windiest places on earth. Afternoon. Winds in summer are often around 30 kts.

Skinny water so channel into marina was close to 1/2 mile with a blind dogleg turn to port around a breakwater just before coming into the marina (Oyster Cove). A 45 foot sailboat had been out and lost his engine so decides to sail into his slip. He's in way over his head so instead of going to his slip two fairways down, he decides to head for an open 60 foot slip which is a straight shot from the channel. Comes in super hot and hit the dock at a good 7 kts. Bow goes up over the main dock and he hits the bow pulpit of the boat next to me hard. Really hard.

But wait, there's more......

About 15 minutes later, who shows up but the guy with an Irwin 52 sailboat who's slip is now occupied. By the time he realizes there no place for him to go, he's totally jammed up and can't maneuver in the narrow channel and gets blown down on three boats, messing up his railing, a pushpit on another boat, and the Dinghy davits on yet another cruising boat

I just don't know what boat #1 was thinking in trying to sail his boat in with close to 30 kts of wind. He could have anchored and waited a couple hours and easily used a Dinghy. Dumb. And inconsiderate.

For the record, in that type of wind, thruster wouldn't do much - would take either an azipod or a Travelift to land a motor-less sailboat

Truth be known, I've had more than a few regretable docking experiences,, though no insurance claims.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I learned that if you want to get good at docking, learn to dock boats at the end of a tow rope when you are using a single inboard with no thruster as the tow boat in all kinds of conditions. Over a hundred times a year.

 

[Benthic2]

OP.....can you pull into the slip bow first ? Backing out will be a whole lot easier than backing in.

 

[jleonard]

.....or know when to abort a docking and reload.

Peter

Yes true.

I learned that IF I thought I missed, then it WAS time to abort and do it again with the added knowledge of how the wind/current affected me so I could make a slight correction.

 

[backinblue]

Yes true.

I learned that IF I thought I missed, then it WAS time to abort and do it again with the added knowledge of how the wind/current affected me so I could make a slight correction.

Took me 3 tries one day this summer fighting an unusually strong cross current. But you are correct, each try taught me how to better handle the conditions.

 

[Mike3034]

I also have a single engine boat with thrusters. I use thrusters like you use 4 wheel drive, to keep or get me out of trouble; but also believe you need to keep working without if possible, so you know how to dock without. I found in reverse, if once moving I can shut into neutral and steer the boat to correct it direction, also depending on wind and current.

 

[timb7734]

Backing a single screw

I had a 34 T years ago with a thruster

Many have brought up thruster fails, simply maintain the batteries and check the charger, wow, never had a thruster fail, but replaced various batteries and a few chargers.

Others have said thruster use is not preferred or shows less seamanship. . . Probably said the same thing about chart plotters or even RDF's, My point is use it if ya got it, realizing it has a limit, usually a thermal breaker which will pop it off when it gets too hot. Takes a minute or two to reset.

The 34 T and most singles as well as twins do not respond to rudders. I once had a trawler that did but it had huge barn door rudders, and even those only helped moving the boat sideways.

You can and should know how to turn the boat in confined spaces, and this takes use of the clutch. That is no problem if you are at idle when the shifts are made and pause a second or two in neutral. Don't waste the thruster in this maneuver.

Best solution is to line up your vessel and back straight in with rudder centered, leaving it alone. Then use clutches and prop effects to make fine adjustments, as well as thruster.

 

[ttompkins]

Excuse me if I missed something. I have a 34ft. Mainship. Single screw, with bow thruster, I can put my boat anywhere I want it. Good God man use what you got. Use the thrusters to put your boat where you want it. I know it can be done without thrusters but why bother. Just use them, after all that is why somebody went to the time and expense to install them. No sense making things harder that they need to be.

 

[backinblue]

Excuse me if I missed something. I have a 34ft. Mainship. Single screw, with bow thruster, I can put my boat anywhere I want it. Good God man use what you got. Use the thrusters to put your boat where you want it. I know it can be done without thrusters but why bother. Just use them, after all that is why somebody went to the time and expense to install them. No sense making things harder that they need to be.

Agree 100%. Use what you have available. Yes there is value in realizing how your boat can manuever w/o thrusters, but no reason to feel like you shouldn't use them, just like any other modern convenience or device on your boat.

 

[Blues]

Recently learned a great expression, “never take your boat anywhere you mind hasn’t been”.

 

[BruceK]

Recently learned a great expression, “never take your boat anywhere you mind hasn’t been”.

but," do not take your boat everywhere your mind has been".
Many years ago, even less learned than now, I backed a chartered Clipper34/Marine Trader/CHB onto the charter operator`s wharf to have the overheating Lehman checked. It backed straight in, no prop walk(unknown term then), no nothing, just straight in. Lucky day perhaps.

 

[Andy G]

Hello,



I was just wondering if my idea of backing is close..

With boat pretty much stopped, turn the rudder to port about 3/4, set motor into reverse idle, bump stern thruster to port, bump bow thruster to starboard and then bump throttle a little to try to get some water flowing over the rudder.

Being a slow wet Saturday morning I have read through the thread post by post. Obviously there are various ways in achieving the same outcome, that is getting the boat tied up while leaving your neighbour's boat still floating & in one piece.

FWIW, I think the OP's approach has too many things going on at the same time. The problem may come when the boat gets a little off line and deciding which 'tool' to use to rectify the situation may make matters worse given you have at best one to two seconds to make the decision.In this situation it is easy to compound the mistake.

I am awarding post 24 as the best KISS approach and post 26 (as usual) the most amusing.

It is still raining!

 

[Caballero II]

I learned that if you want to get good at docking, learn to dock boats at the end of a tow rope when you are using a single inboard with no thruster as the tow boat in all kinds of conditions. Over a hundred times a year.

I'm sorry, what does this mean? "Learn to dock boats at the end of a tow rope"? Please elucidate in detail.

 

[fgarriso]

Every boat is different.

You have several things working against you with a Mainship 40.

1. The boat has to shallow of a draft.

2. The keel is too small.

3. The rutter is way too small.

4. You have a single engine with a single prop. That in it's self will cause prop walk, and will never back straight.

5. What you need to do is get a captain very experienced with singles that is willing spend one or two hours on your boat teaching you how to maneuver your boat. It is well worth the money and you will be backing in like a pro.

 

[psneeld]

I'm sorry, what does this mean? "Learn to dock boats at the end of a tow rope"? Please elucidate in detail.

I was an assistance towboat captain for nearly 15 years.

With a boat in tow and having to get the boat safely into a slip or dock ....one had to use wind and current to a great degree. To many boaters they are the enemy, to me they could be the steering force and brakes for my tow.

A lot of people think doing that in side tow with a good towboat is actually not all that hard. That is true as far as I have done it ( with the right twin screw towboat).

But my employer(s) used single screw Shamrocks with no thruster, so in many situations, a side tow would have been worse than a stern tow for handling.

Thus my statement is about getting 2 boats to a dock/slip in bad conditions sometimes when yours was a single with no thruster and the other was yanking your stern around. It often had no reverse to stop it, only the towline in many cases to steer it and could have been expensive to scratch it because of clueless owner onboard did nothing protect it.

If you aborted the approach, in wind and current it could turn into a huge mess, especially when downwing in a dead end canal.

Hope that paints the mental picture I was commenting on.

 

[rslifkin]

I was an assistance towboat captain for nearly 15 years.

With a boat in tow and having to get the boat safely into a slip or dock ....one had to use wind and current to a great degree. To many boaters they are the enemy, to me they could be the steering force and brakes for my tow.

A lot of people think doing that in side tow with a good towboat is actually not all that hard. That is true as far as I have done it ( with the right twin screw towboat).

But my employer(s) used single screw Shamrocks with no thruster, so in many situations, a side tow would have been worse than a stern tow for handling.

Thus my statement is about getting 2 boats to a dock/slip in bad conditions sometimes when yours was a single with no thruster and the other was yanking your stern around. It often had no reverse to stop it, only the towline in many cases to steer it and could have been expensive to scratch it because of clueless owner onboard did nothing protect it.

If you aborted the approach, in wind and current it could turn into a huge mess, especially when downwing in a dead end canal.

Hope that paints the mental picture I was commenting on.

I agree that twins are very helpful for the side tie docking when towing. I've done it with my own boat and it's very do-able, but definitely requires a good understanding of how the whole combination will move from each input. And a good ability to judge not hitting things you can't see well, such as when the other boat is close enough to the dock.



From watching others do it, the stern tow dock placement is ideally done with a couple of people on the dock to receive the boat (especially if it's a slip and you've gotta slingshot the boat in) and 1 or 2 good line handlers on the towed boat. Definitely not on my list of things to try!

 

[Hippocampus]

I’m a total newbie on power. Was good docking a 46’ sailboat with or without using a bow thruster. That was in trade winds and just about every docking experience was totally unknown until there and committed. Unless you have hydraulics thrusters are worthless in over 20.
On sail I had a huge balanced spade rudder. At any boat speed as long as there was water flow over the rudder I had steerage. In forward you have good flow even before the boat moves. Given it’s not fly by wire you have direct feel of the trannie when doing back and fill. So in the sailboat it was common and not intimidating to dock bow first in up to 30kts as long as the wind wasn’t abeam.
Current power is a single with a bow and stern thruster. It’s fully electronic. I have no feel for the trannie and poor feel for the engine which is quiet enough at slow speed from the flybridge that I can’t use my ears to know what it’s doing. Big believer “slow is pro” which has been drilled into me over the years. With the sail the boat was part of me. With the power it’s a foreign object. Got the theory but not the intuitive reality.
Dislike electronic controls. Have found myself in slow idle in forward or reverse when I thought I was in neutral. Don’t like I have to give very quick bursts of significant throttle to get any rudder response. Especially true in reverse. With a high aspect fin the sail pivoted reliably. With the power the pivot point varies on wind and current direction.
Different world and in my view much harder. Need to unlearn sail reflexes and then imbed power reflexes. Early days but a struggle. Knock on wood haven’t scratched anyone or me YET.
Know power nearly always backs in. But you get so much more water flow over your rudder(s) in forward than reverse don’t under why in tricky situations why not go in bow first? Also bow thrusters are deep and don’t suck air. Stern thrusters do if you lean on them. So more control of your bow when it’s tricky.

 

[psneeld]

I agree that twins are very helpful for the side tie docking when towing. I've done it with my own boat and it's very do-able, but definitely requires a good understanding of how the whole combination will move from each input. And a good ability to judge not hitting things you can't see well, such as when the other boat is close enough to the dock.



From watching others do it, the stern tow dock placement is ideally done with a couple of people on the dock to receive the boat (especially if it's a slip and you've gotta slingshot the boat in) and 1 or 2 good line handlers on the towed boat. Definitely not on my list of things to try!

Unfortunately, often there was no one on the dock, and many times no one on the towed boat to help. Or there were and t hey were more hindrance than help.

Amazing how some boaters with lots or years but no good experience won't follow direction and can screw up to the point of hurting people and property instead of helping.

 

[Hawkshaw1]

I don't understand. The boat has thrusters. Why not use them? A 40-footer with a small rudder and no keel is a Dixie-cup on water. Backing-down is tough. Why install thrusters if you don't use them?

Peter

I have a similar boat (Mainship 390) and only 1 year of experience with a boat larger than a sterndrive runabout.
What seems to work for me is to try to back the boat into the ship and only use the front thruster if/and when I have to to make a minor adjustment.
My boat has some "walk" in reverse if I turn the wheel all the way to the starboard and give it a small (1300 RPMs) burst of power for one or two seconds and then wait for the boat to react.
My boat's stern seems to walk to the port side with the rudder hard to starboard in forward and in reverse with a short strong burst of power.
What was hard for me initially is to wait for the boat to react.
When I drive our 20' foot runabout now it seems like everything is in fast forward mode. The old Mainship seems like it's in slow-motion mode.

 

[Wils]

I think the best boating advise I received came with my first purchase of a large boat.......to hire a Captain to go out with me for a few hours to go over operating the boat and in particular docking. We ended up making it a family outing so everyone benefited and booked a couple of afternoons to cover the gambit of docking, picking up a mooring ball, MOB manourving and anchoring. We were very new to boating and I know this advice doesn't directly relate or answer the OP's question, but twenty years and three boats later I still find any written direction on how to manouver a boat in close quarters more than a bit of effort to keep straight, but the calm words of instruction and bits of wisdom that came from that Captain still ring clear today.

OP.....if you don't get an answer that helps maybe finding a local Captain to hire for a few hours is an option to consider, I don't regret having done it.

 

[rslifkin]

Know power nearly always backs in. But you get so much more water flow over your rudder(s) in forward than reverse don’t under why in tricky situations why not go in bow first? Also bow thrusters are deep and don’t suck air. Stern thrusters do if you lean on them. So more control of your bow when it’s tricky.

It depends. Sometimes it's just a matter of the boat fitting better in the slip one way vs the other. Other times backing out is as bad or worse than backing in.

In reverse a kick of throttle can be good to generate extra prop walk, especially if you're moving forward. But forward idle should be enough to get rudder response with a decent size prop.

 

[psneeld]

With my trawler, I always bow in.

Maneuverability and ease of boarding make it so.

 

[markpierce]

How about an oversized berth? Works for me but then I'm a bow-in guy.