Maybe my AGMs are good enough?

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Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
1,744
Location
Sandusky Bay
Vessel Name
Escape
Vessel Make
Mariner 37
According to our Balmar Smartgauge, the house bank on our 2007 Mariner had gone to zero State of Charge twice. The toll that took on the 2019 AGMs fit with what I was seeing on the Smartgauge as the SOC dropped while at anchor. Believing that an entire electrical system renovation was in our near future, I had not dug into the current battery and charging system to the depth I perhaps should have. It made sense until it didn't.

Neither the voltages displayed on the Xantrex Freedom SW 3000 panel not its bar graph of battery capacity jibe with the SOC on the Smartgauge. Believing that the superior design and engineering of the Balmar product meant it outranked the simple voltmeter and whatever Xantrex uses to make its bar graph, I ran the generator each morning and evening on anchor. One quiet morning, I made coffee on the inverter and it handled the load just fine according to the voltmeters and bar graph. Now, a year or so later, I can anchor two nights with the only charging event being a 90 minute main engine run between anchorages. Balmar says "maybe the Smartgauge needs to be reset?" Perhaps, or maybe my AGMs are good enough?

Making several electrical diagrams helped me to understand how the components all fit together, but chasing all those cables through the bilge to create the boat shaped diagram below is what it took to finally grasp the two bank approach. The 3 big 8Ds in the lazarette are divided into 2 banks that include the smaller generator start battery.

The banks are combined 20 cable feet forward at the 1-2-Both switch which is virtually always set to Both. Am I missing something by leaving this switch on both, or have I just not yet encountered the reason to leave one bank isolated by setting the switch to 1 or 2?

The generator battery is isolated behind an old Blue Sea automatic charging relay. The main engine 8D start battery is also isolated by an ACR. When the voltages are right and the Cole-Hersee is set to Both, do those ACRs not combine all 5 batteries into one large (198 Ah x 4 + 92 Ah = 884 amp hours) bank? The batteries all meet at the positive bus.
 

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I have read LOTS of Smart Gage stories of their not being very smart. If it said you batteries were dead and a voltmeter said they weren't I would believe the voltmeter. If you really want to know do capacity test. You probably don't need a fill test, just a test that goes down to 50%
 
Your real world usage under load seems more accurate than the Balmar Smart Gauge. Mine would frequent reset or go to zero, particularly if there were competing charging sources present with ongoing inverter loads.
It’s easy to reset the Smart Gauge though you will have to reinstall the settings fir your battery bank.
 
At this point I have lost confidence in the Smartgauge. Haven't used it for months; maybe a year.
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I sure wish Xantrex made a more modern panel for the Freedom inverter. The old panel just doesn't compete with the modern data newer tech offers.
 
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According to our Balmar Smartgauge, the house bank on our

The banks are combined 20 cable feet forward at the 1-2-Both switch which is virtually always set to Both. Am I missing something by leaving this switch on both, or have I just not yet encountered the reason to leave one bank isolated by setting the switch to 1 or 2?

The generator battery is isolated behind an old Blue Sea automatic charging relay. The main engine 8D start battery is also isolated by an ACR. When the voltages are right and the Cole-Hersee is set to Both, do those ACRs not combine all 5 batteries into one large (198 Ah x 4 + 92 Ah = 884 amp hours) bank? The batteries all meet at the positive bus.
Not sure which Balmar you have? Mine is their original SmartGauge shown in pic... when I was looking to install it I was cautioned that it would not function properly with battys connected via a switch and the leads needed to be attached directly to batty terminals for accurate readings. I ended up combining my 2 8D AGM house battys (I previously combined them nearly 100% of the time) and I moved my eng start to my 8D AGM thruster batty. Balmar leads are on Pos batty 1 & Neg batty 2 of directly paralleled bank.

My SmartGauge seems to track V &;SOC of house very well and supplies V for my thruster bank.
 

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We have that same version. Putting the bulk of the house bank way back in the lazarette makes less and less sense to me with every passing season. Between that and the apparent change in my Smartgauge, I had emotionally moved from refinement on to replacement. The emotional pendulum has begun to swing back now and I suppose it is time to rule out wiring issues with the Smartguage. The previous owner had it installed and had faith in it. So did I until I didn't. Balmar insists it is a very simple device without much to go wrong, though I can't say that for the complexity or accessibility of the wiring on our house bank.
 
I have a newer Smartguage on my sailboat and haven't been impressed.

I use a Victron Smartshunt on the trawler and Bluetooth to my phone. That's been entirely satisfactory. You could easily replace the shunt.
 
Making several electrical diagrams helped me to understand how the components all fit together, but chasing all those cables through the bilge to create the boat shaped diagram below is what it took to finally grasp the two bank approach. The 3 big 8Ds in the lazarette are divided into 2 banks that include the smaller generator start battery.

The banks are combined 20 cable feet forward at the 1-2-Both switch which is virtually always set to Both. Am I missing something by leaving this switch on both, or have I just not yet encountered the reason to leave one bank isolated by setting the switch to 1 or 2?

The generator battery is isolated behind an old Blue Sea automatic charging relay. The main engine 8D start battery is also isolated by an ACR. When the voltages are right and the Cole-Hersee is set to Both, do those ACRs not combine all 5 batteries into one large (198 Ah x 4 + 92 Ah = 884 amp hours) bank? The batteries all meet at the positive bus.

Nice diagram.

For your Genset, am I correct that the generator and genset battery are connected and have an On/Off switch that disconnects them from the ACR that isolates them from your DC Bus?

Then on your Start battery, that is reversed in that there is an ACR that isolates the start battery from the On/Off switch which connects it with the engine and DC bus? Please check that this is correct, because as I understand it, you shouldn't be able to start the engine from the start battery unless there was another charge source that is activating that ACR.

I think for both your Genset and Start batteries that the On/Off switches are actually a combine switch to connect the Engine or Genset to the House bank so they could be started if their start batteries were drained.

Is your alternator connected to the DC bus via the in-line fuse?

It appears you have 4 battery "banks":
1. Genset start. Connected to the Genset and isolated behind an ACR.
2. Engine Start. I am going to assume isolated they same as the Genset start battery, ie connected to the Start battery and isolated behind an ACR.
3. House 1 - 1 8d battery
4. House 2 - 2 8d batteries

Your 1/2/Both switch is really selecting both which of the 4 battery banks above will be used and which will be charged.

BOTH:
No charge source: House 1 and House 2 both will be providing power to the boat. The Genset and Start batteries are isolated since both ACRs will not see a voltage of greater than 13v.
Shore power connected: With the charger engaged, both ACRs will activate when the combined House 1 and House 2 reach 13v for 2 minutes then all banks will be combined into one large bank and receive a charge.
Engine running: With the alternator charging, both ACRs will activate when the combined House 1 and House 2 reach 13v for 2 minutes then all banks will be combined into one large bank and receive a charge.
Genset running: The Genset ACR will engage right away and combine and provide a charge source to Genset Start, House 1, and House 2. When the combined voltage of those reach 13v, then the Start battery ACR will activate as well and all batteries will be combined and receive a charge.

Position #1
No charge source:
House 1 will provide power to the boat
Shore power connected: With the charger engaged, the ACRs will activate when House 1 reaches 13v for 2 minutes then House 1, Genset start, and Start Battery will be combined and all will receive a charge.
Engine running: With the alternator charging, the ACRs will activate when House 1 reaches 13v for 2 minutes then House 1, Genset start, and Start Battery will be combined and all will receive a charge.
Genset running: The Genset ACR will engage right away and combine and provide a charge source to Genset Start and House 1. When the combined voltage of those reach 13v for 2 minutes then the Start battery ACR will activate and provide that charge to the Start battery as well.

Position #2
No charge source:
House 2 will provide power to the boat.
Shore power connected: With the charger engaged, the Start Battery ACR will activate when House 2 reaches 13v for 2 minutes then House 2 and Battery start will be combined and both will receive a charge.
Engine running: With the alternator charging, the Start Battery ACR will activate when House 2 reaches 13v for 2 minutes then House 2 and Battery start will be combined and both will receive a charge.
Genset running: The Genset ACR will engage right away and combine and provide a charge source to Genset Start and House 1. No charge will be provided to House 2 or the Engine Start battery.

The thing to remember about the typical setup with a 1/2/Both switch is that it is a charge director as well as a battery selector. I prefer (when possible) to send all charge sources directly to your DC bus. Then the 1/2/Both selector is only selecting what banks are connected to loads.

Check to see if you think I have interpreted your diagram correctly.
 
Have you considered an load tester? I've used the old-school ones like THIS on Amazon (borrowed from someone else).

Peter
 
Is it possible the smart gauge reports zero at 50% SOC to assist with not over discharging?
I wondered about that too. I inquired about that with Balmar when it happened (the first time was in storage before we bought the boat) and they said that there is no offset and the percentage reflects the actual calculated state.
 
How the Smartgauge™ Works Conventional battery monitors count amp hours in/out of the battery to determine the battery’s State of Charge (SoC). This method is inherently inaccurate due to the State of Charge of the battery not necessarily being linked to the amount of energy a battery can deliver (due to temperature, how quickly the battery was charged/discharged, battery age, and other outside factors). Unless the battery monitor is regularly reset (either automatically by fully charging the battery or manually reset by the user), the reading error will compound (known as synchronization error)
Well the manual has ^^^ a disclaimer
 
Nice diagram.

For your Genset, am I correct that the generator and genset battery are connected and have an On/Off switch that disconnects them from the ACR that isolates them from your DC Bus?

Then on your Start battery, that is reversed in that there is an ACR that isolates the start battery from the On/Off switch which connects it with the engine and DC bus? Please check that this is correct, because as I understand it, you shouldn't be able to start the engine from the start battery unless there was another charge source that is activating that ACR.
Thank you for the thorough review and analysis, Dave. You are absolutely right about my diagram having the components on the main engine start battery backwards. The positive cable goes first through a switch and then through the ACR before reaching the positive bus. Same with the generator start battery, but I had the sequence of components correct on that one.

My 1-2-Both switch is virtually always set to Both. In that condition, all three 198 Ah 8D batteries in the lazarette are combined as one bank. The generator and main engine start batteries are also combined for charging when the ACR conditions are met, but effectively never for "house use" when the generator is off, shore power is disconnected, and the main engine is off. At least that is my read.

The Xantrex bar graph is just a crude approximation of "battery life" based on voltage. I am tempted to install a Victron SmartShunt, but I would have to commit to the combination of all three lazarette batteries on the same bank by doing some rewiring so that the ground returns to them via a single wire. Am I reading that right?
 
My 1-2-Both switch is virtually always set to Both. In that condition, all three 198 Ah 8D batteries in the lazarette are combined as one bank. The generator and main engine start batteries are also combined for charging when the ACR conditions are met, but effectively never for "house use" when the generator is off, shore power is disconnected, and the main engine is off. At least that is my read.
Just an observation that may not apply here, but a freak problem I had on a prior battery system, from leaving the battery switch on both.

I had an anchor stuck under a mooring block - unknown to me - and after repeated attempts to raise it from different angles, etc. when I was finally free I tried to go into forward as I was drifting towards the shore with the tide - and my voltage had dropped sufficiently the controls were inoperable. It was a scary moment for about 30 (?) seconds until the battery was sufficiently charged. I learned from it 1. separate to 1 or 2 not both generally. 2. If I am going to use the windlass repeatedly as in this scenario that idle on the mains won't be enough and to start the generator. Ultimately, I had the system redone.
 
Not sure if this helps but I was advised the ACR can charge in both directions. I was deciding between the dc to dc charger or the ACR. The ACR needs the same battery chemistry.
That is my understanding as well. The ACR used to be called (or perhaps still is) a combiner. “All” it does is close its contact when certain voltage conditions are met. In our case, all batteries aboard are AGM.
 
Thank you for the thorough review and analysis, Dave. You are absolutely right about my diagram having the components on the main engine start battery backwards. The positive cable goes first through a switch and then through the ACR before reaching the positive bus. Same with the generator start battery, but I had the sequence of components correct on that one.
OK, so the On/Off isolates the start batteries from the DC bus. If you have the Blue Seas ACR with the Yellow override knob at the top, then the ACR can be used to manually combine the Start with the DC bus in the event that the Start battery is dead so you can start the motor with the house bank.

My 1-2-Both switch is virtually always set to Both. In that condition, all three 198 Ah 8D batteries in the lazarette are combined as one bank. The generator and main engine start batteries are also combined for charging when the ACR conditions are met, but effectively never for "house use" when the generator is off, shore power is disconnected, and the main engine is off. At least that is my read.

Yes, that is mine as well.

The Xantrex bar graph is just a crude approximation of "battery life" based on voltage. I am tempted to install a Victron SmartShunt, but I would have to commit to the combination of all three lazarette batteries on the same bank by doing some rewiring so that the ground returns to them via a single wire. Am I reading that right?
I'm not sure as amp counters tend to confuse me. However, I think you are right. I think it would be relatively easy to combine your 3 8ds into one bank. With just a few (well designed) cross connects you could combine the batteries then the use the wire that is currently connecting your 1 8d to your 1/2/Both switch to connect your genset directly to the DC positive bus.

However, while I am very free with opinions no one should take them as informed advice when it comes to electrical systems of any type.

You have probably seen it, but here is an article by Rod Collins on battery shunts.
Installing a battery monitor
 
My Blue Sea ACRs are the old round white kind and only the one isolating the generator start battery has the on/off/auto switch. The logic is that if the generator can be started, the other batteries can be charged including the main engine battery.
 
An observation, any modifications you make must be well documented for the next owner.
 
An observation, any modifications you make must be well documented for the next owner.
Yes! There are things on my boat that I don't understand because they weren't documented or labeled. I am trying to be better at that myself. However, I keep changing things....
 
An observation, any modifications you make must be well documented for the next owner.
Hehe, in a perfect world eh?

My boat, nothing documented. The only document re the wiring was a pencil sketch of a system that was before I got it. Missing equipment, re-wired, and of course the "what was he thinking"

Maybe change must to should? Or is that now a new requirement?
 
Hehe, in a perfect world eh?
second that.
I have looked at many schematics of boat wiring, neatly laid out and then I look at bundles of wires from the factory, occasionally some the same colours.
When I need to run a wire, I need to run it. If you cannot figure it out, then you should not be pulling on those wires.
 
When I need to run a wire, I need to run it. If you cannot figure it out, then you should not be pulling on those wires.
My problem is that if I come back a month or two later, I won't recall what the wire is for that I ran!
 
While my 1-2-Both switch is virtually always set to Both meaning that the 3 "main" house batteries act as one bank and, under certain conditions, all 5 batteries combine as one bank, the separate negative connections stand in the way of adding an amp counter to do what the Xantrex inverter/charger can't due to its age.

My read is that eliminating the 1-2-Both switch and combining all 3 house batteries on one new bus bar connected to the main positive bus would produce the same result, but with a single negative feed back to the batteries that would facilitate the addition of a Victron SmartShunt to improve battery monitoring.
Escape combined battery bank v1.0.jpg
 
Based on my limited and poor understanding of how a shunt works, I think that would work. The key is to make sure that all loads that come off the house bank are grounded to a common bus that isn't grounding loads to the engine or genset. Then that Negative bus is connected to the shunt and the shunt connected to the battery without any grounds between them.
 
The house batteries are the only ones that should be connected to the shunt.

From the diagram it looks like you have the option of connecting the house to assist in starting the generator or the engine both having their own batteries. Always a good idea.

The shunt should go between the 3 house negatives and the boat DC ground.
 
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