Navy Destroyer tee boned by a Freighter?

[AlaskaProf]

This theory would make some sense out of what happened.
Very interesting thread. Thanks.

Seems implausible to run such an evolution with the captain in his cabin, No?

 

[McGillicuddy]

My thought was that they had been tracking the sub for multiple days. You gotta rest sometime. That's why they have watch systems. And also why the bridge team lost situation awareness. Fatigue due to stress.
Like I said, it's just a theory. USN has closed up like a clam. No information coming out. Other than the Fitz was going to or coming from the Yokosuka naval base. WTH???

 

[MRRiley]

While the sub tracking theory is interesting, most of that action takes place on the other side of the islands. The Sea of Japan. The Pacific, where they were operating, has generally deeper water and significantly more current.

Honestly, the most likely driver of this mishap is they were doing engineering drills and the bridge, cic, and look outs were simply unaware that they had picked up speed.

Distracted, complacent, ignorant, could be a combination but that doesn't change the loss of lives.

 

[Acheron2010]

They would not conduct sub ops so close to a shipping channel.

 

[Benthic2]

I think he was implying the sub was from another country....not a US sub....but maybe that was just the way I intepreted it ?

 

[CDreamer]

https://news.usni.org/2017/07/12/new-dry-dock-photos-show-extent-hidden-uss-fitzgerald-damage

 

[rwidman]

........ USN has closed up like a clam. No information coming out. ............

You expected something different?

You're not likely to get anything out of the Navy unless they are claiming that it was entirely the other guy's fault.

 

[CDreamer]

For those of you with direct knowledge of modern Navy vessels, can I assume that the "bulb" on the Fitz contains sophisticated sonar, rather than for efficiency?

 

[psneeld]

Heres a link to many US Navy mishaps.

The Navy is no more secretive about accidents as many sleezbag civilian corporations.

https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/NavalAccidents1945-1988.pdfii8 ft

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Google "Tug Thomas Hebert". It was a tug sunk off the New Jersey coast that the navy denied any involvement in. It was dragged down by its tow wire on a calm, clear night. Forensic investigators found the specific paint of subs on the tow wire. Navy took many years to acknowledge it may have happened. I work with 1 of 2 survivors of that ordeal. He was a deckhand at the time and spent hours with 1 other in a life raft. He is a Captain with the company I work for.

 

[psneeld]

I dont doubt the Navy reports can be sketchy, but certainly no worse than any othe accident report where bigger factors than public rights are at stake.

How long did it take and how complete is the official report on the 1990s banking crisis which makes a Navy ship accident look like a kid dropping his ice cream cone on the floor?

 

[McGillicuddy]

You expected something different?

You're not likely to get anything out of the Navy unless they are claiming that it was entirely the other guy's fault.

Nope. Not expecting anything different.
I did some work for both Navy JAG and occasionally NCIS when the navy was investigating events that included non naval vessels. They would get my report then I would hear no more. No follow up. No discussion regarding the naval side. What was interesting was that I would be paid with what looked like personal checks but with a small imprint of JAG office in the top left corner. The checks were normally written out by hand. Interesting.

A good friend of mine is contracted by the navy to oversee any time a warship needs to be transported. He did the DDG Cole for instance from Persian Gulf to Pascagoula. Also does a lot of deadship tows.

 

[CDreamer]

USS Fitzgerald's future?

I suppose that for $1B+ to build originally, it would take a lot to consider the Fitz a 'total loss' but recent reports say the keel is twisted (as some TF'ers speculated.) My guess is that the patch job will just get it floated on to Blue Marlin for transport back to the U.S., a la the USS Cole.

I read that the Cole was "over" $250M to repair. That's probably a convenient way to at least be truthful...if not accurate. So who knows.

But what's the over/under on whether Fitz will ever see service again?

 

[Ski in NC]

With the Navy, who knows. They may spend half a bil fixing it, then decommission a sister ship a year later. Would have been better off scrapping the one that is tore up.

I have direct experience with this. I was an engineer in a shipyard involved in doing an overhaul on a one-of-a-kind sub reactor plant. We finished it and a couple years later they scrapped the boat. Why the hell did they spend that money on the overhaul??!! Pissed me off as I spent two years working my a$$ off. Take a boat ride from NC to NE and saw the boat tied up in Norfolk. Got on line. Stricken from the fleet.

Would not surprise me a bit if the Fitz has a tweaked keel. In fact it would surprise me more if it was straight.

Scrap it.

 

[psneeld]

Money unwisely spent is usually political.

Congressional oversight committees often overide a lot of common sense decisions.

But ultimately, the blame falls back into the military's lap.

As to info coming out of the investigation...plenty of military mishaps involving civilians or property are made available to the public.

Something this newsworthy will be hounded by the media for a long time.

By law, the investigation by the Navy cannot be released in its entirety, but many details should be available as well as a press release version at some point. Then there are the interviews, articles and books quoting those that wete there.

Those that think every government screw up is hidden from the public....well....I will just be nice....

 

[Bigsfish]

If interested you could file a FReedom of Information request.

 

[CDreamer]

I'm pretty sure the various news agencies will file their standard F-o-I requests.
Then the sailors who leave the Navy - 1000's every month, and certainly many from the Fitz - will talk. And there's the new standard fall-back...WikiLeaks.

 

[Wxx3]

Money unwisely spent is usually political.

Those that think every government screw up is hidden from the public....well....I will just be nice....

Not to change the subject. but I doubt you are saying you never saw wasted money that wasn't political.

 

[psneeld]

Not to change the subject. but I doubt you are saying you never saw wasted money that wasn't political.

Well sure people made bad decisions, but compared to general procurement rules that were handed down from political origins.....it was a spit in the wind.

Or when it went from no oversight to too much oversight. Meaning back in the 80s, unspent funds could be used for dang near anything at the unit level. By the 90s, oversight committes strangled local commanders to the point of absurdity. Like not being able to switch a few dollars of fuel money to travel expenses. We flew C130 4 engine aircraft an additional 2000+ miles a day instead of letting them shortstop and stay at Navy Adak for a couple hundred bucks in travel money.

But again compared to the billions wasted on programs that while stated as a "need" or even a "wild idea" by some senior military guy....by the time the program is actually ramrodded through the funding and procurement processs....with all the outside political pressures....yes, I blame most waste on the politics.

Look at the "Deepwater, multi-year contracting concept" the USCG tried. After years of getting beat up that the military didnt know how to buy stuff or wasted money because of the funding process....they said, lets let outsiders do it....put it in the hands of contractors and budgeteers. So far, I never hear a good thing come out of it.

 

[fryedaze]

With the Navy, who knows. They may spend half a bil fixing it, then decommission a sister ship a year later. Would have been better off scrapping the one that is tore up.

I have direct experience with this. I was an engineer in a shipyard involved in doing an overhaul on a one-of-a-kind sub reactor plant. We finished it and a couple years later they scrapped the boat. Why the hell did they spend that money on the overhaul??!! Pissed me off as I spent two years working my a$$ off. Take a boat ride from NC to NE and saw the boat tied up in Norfolk. Got on line. Stricken from the fleet.

Would not surprise me a bit if the Fitz has a tweaked keel. In fact it would surprise me more if it was straight.

Scrap it.

What sub? Back in late 70s the sub Ray hit a sea mountain and crushed the dome. They welded a few I beams on her and brought her back to Charleston.

 

[CapRob]

It's a sad story. US Sailors lost because of it. I have sailed both Merchant and Navy but the Merchie's saying is: "if its haze gray, stay away". Now, there are some fine Navy Conning Officers (and I hope I was one of them), but why tempt fate? Some are seamen and some aren't. Give them their space and go about your own with caution.

 

[Group9]

Not to change the subject. but I doubt you are saying you never saw wasted money that wasn't political.

I worked for the federal government for 21 years.

Some waste is political, some isn't. The problem with the government is that your spending other people's money and it's easy to shrug off that you just made a bad decision that completely blew the money some poor taxpayer worked his whole life to contribute. And, politicians are the worst, but there are plenty of GS-14 and 15s, and senior executives, who aren't any better. We could have got by on half the money we received, but we never stopped begging for more.

We used to say among ourselves, that if the taxpayers really knew how bad it was, we would all be hanging from lamp posts.

 

[fryedaze]

I worked for the federal government for 21 years.

Some waste is political, some isn't. The problem with the government is that your spending other people's money and it's easy to shrug off that you just made a bad decision that completely blew the money some poor taxpayer worked his whole life to contribute. And, politicians are the worst, but there are plenty of GS-14 and 15s, and senior executives, who aren't any better. We could have got by on half the money we received, but we never stopped begging for more.

We used to say among ourselves, that if the taxpayers really knew how bad it was, we would all be hanging from lamp posts.

I agree! Get the noose.
Six figure government employees don't see themselves as part of a social welfare program, many aren't much different from a food stamp recipient.
I know guys who moved into government jobs from the private sector. They wanted to quit after the first few weeks. Their peers told them "hang in there, you will get use to doing nothing all day".

 

[Ski in NC]

I worked for the federal government for 21 years.

Some waste is political, some isn't. The problem with the government is that your spending other people's money and it's easy to shrug off that you just made a bad decision that completely blew the money some poor taxpayer worked his whole life to contribute. And, politicians are the worst, but there are plenty of GS-14 and 15s, and senior executives, who aren't any better. We could have got by on half the money we received, but we never stopped begging for more.

We used to say among ourselves, that if the taxpayers really knew how bad it was, we would all be hanging from lamp posts.

I had the exact sentiments during my five year stint in the shipyard. If the taxpayers only knew how much waste there was, they would be livid.

We could certainly do the job on half the money. But every year they begged for more. And got it.

It disgusted me so much I had to get out, and did. That was 25yrs ago.

 

[Bigsfish]

A friend of mine from my university days ran a large agency for the Feds (it will go unnamed to protect those involved) . When he first took over he wanted to cut out some of the dead wood and be more efficient, his boss to,d him if he did his budget would be cut. They only way to keep the large budget he needed was to keep hiring more people and go over budget each year. Sad but the government rewards inefficiency where private industry is more into cost saving. And that's why we paid thousands of dollars for a toilet seat and hundreds of thousands for these government workers to go on a 'working" retreat in Las Vegas, South Beach, ect. Sad.

 

[catalinajack]

I worked for the federal government for 21 years.

Some waste is political, some isn't. The problem with the government is that your spending other people's money and it's easy to shrug off that you just made a bad decision that completely blew the money some poor taxpayer worked his whole life to contribute. And, politicians are the worst, but there are plenty of GS-14 and 15s, and senior executives, who aren't any better. We could have got by on half the money we received, but we never stopped begging for more.

We used to say among ourselves, that if the taxpayers really knew how bad it was, we would all be hanging from lamp posts.

And I worked for Uncle Sam for 33 years. Retired as a GS-15. Yes, I saw some waste but, for the most part, my experience was that of folks who worked hard at being good stewards of taxpayer money. Total efficiency is not possible even in private industry.

 

[FlyWright]

Anyone who has worked for the government knows about "end of year money". That's the money left unspent as you approach the end of the FY. The battle cry is "Use it or Lose it". If it's not spent, we'll get our budget cut by that amount next year. So the powers to be find ways to spend it in a hurry on non-essentials like office equipment and the such.

I worked for 31 years with the FAA in relatively high cost air traffic control and flight operations. Air Traffic Controllers have little control over government spending but I found that the flight crews overall were very good stewards of the government money, trying to maximize efficiency and effectiveness in their daily decision-making. Schedulers were close runner ups, but some had their heads up their a$$es when it came to inefficiencies.

IMO, admin types were the worst! They had a budget and they were going to spend it. Part of it is the system of Use or Lose, but then there are also those who are just biding their time until retirement.

Every time I visit Washington DC, I see the masses employed by the Feds and have to shake my head. What a monstrosity we have built!

 

[Bigsfish]

"What a monstrosity we have built!"

Drain the swamp.

 

[BandB]

The governments of the country have no monopoly on mismanagement. Just follow the business news. You want example #1, just look at Sears.

 

[Bigsfish]

BandB

True but private industry doesn't have the unlimited funds that government seems to have. Contract with the government and towards the end claim unexpected overruns and they give you more money. Government contracts are difgicult to secure but once awarded they are money makers.