Navy Destroyer tee boned by a Freighter?

[psneeld]

Unlimited funds is sometimes misapplied.

Soldiets in combat without GPS or vests.

Navy helos with broken equipment at night in the middle of nowhere.

USCG helos that were falling apart fresh from the factory.

A NMFS agent friend of mine that worked harder than most civilians I knew bevause he was a one man office for a region.

I can find as many civilian debacles as I saw in my dedicated, top notch ranks.

 

[BandB]

Unlimited funds is sometimes misapplied.

Soldiets in combat without GPS or vests.

Navy helos with broken equipment at night in the middle of nowhere.

USCG helos that were falling apart fresh from the factory.

A NMFS agent friend of mine that worked harder than most civilians I knew bevause he was a one man office for a region.

I can find as many civilian debacles as I saw in my dedicated, top notch ranks.

People often think the government entity or the company they work for has to be the most screwed up ever and then they change jobs to one that is worse.

 

[dhays]

I run a small two-member LLC. Every dollar wasted is money out of my pocket. Even so, there is waste in my business. I am constantly amazed at what I hear from my patients who work in large corporations about how that money is spent. Huge amounts of waste that that is in private industry. Face it, the larger the organization, the larger the amount of waste. I don't think there is any way around it.

 

[BandB]

When I was employed, we often made acquisitions and most were screwed up, that being the reason they were available. Most were also fixable as we didn't buy those with fatal problems. I remember one that allowed the salesmen to give any size discount they wanted to in order to get business. They would sell items below cost of manufacturing.

One had been family owned but they'd had so many issues they'd gotten loans so they were now very minority shareholders. The company that had purchased and converted the loans, had been told there were three family members involved. There were actually 17 related parties and only two that anyone thought did anything productive. The cost of the 17 including benefits was $8.7 million a year plus the problems they caused when they made decisions. Before interest expense, they were only losing about $6 million a year.

One company manufacturing off shore and had no record of how much raw materials they sent and how much came back in products. We looked at 3 months and found out half of what they sent was going into product for them and half was going into product for the contractor.

Even on a very small basis, our company looked at a small store about a year ago. Their inventory on their books was 4 times what they actually had. First time Carmen saw the number she told them that much wouldn't even fit in a store that size. The employees were walking out with garments constantly, considering that a perk of the job, also giving to their friends. They weren't even sneaking the items out as the owner was never there after 5:00 pm. The worst thing was seeing them all wearing stuff they'd stolen in the store and the owner never realized. She was the nicest lady and couldn't believe they'd do that as they all said they were Christians. In one week of
surveillance, we saw roughly $1200 stolen. On top of that one girl felt she was underpaid so helped herself to and additional $200 per week from the register. Also, no one had ever said anything to her about taking inventory, including her tax preparer. Only store we ever refused to hire any of the old staff. Their actual sales were very good though and location and product line were excellent.

 

[BandB]

I run a small two-member LLC. Every dollar wasted is money out of my pocket. Even so, there is waste in my business. I am constantly amazed at what I hear from my patients who work in large corporations about how that money is spent. Huge amounts of waste that that is in private industry. Face it, the larger the organization, the larger the amount of waste. I don't think there is any way around it.

Here's the one I find most ironic. Major companies in deep financial trouble, cutting back everywhere and hire consultants to step in for many millions and give them golden parachutes. Almost as bad as the NY Knicks paying Phil Jackson $12 million a year not to work for them.

 

[HiDHo]

Getting back to the USS Fizgerald, there's a Navy tradition at work that might handicap CO's. CapnRob is right, " some are seaman and some are not" . From what I read about the DDG's skipper he has a typical background, ROTC in college, history major, some junior officer sea duty, back ashore for more degreees, staff duty, back to sea as XO, then CO. In the armed forces it's get promoted or out you go. There are lopesided figures on O-4/O-5 that want command of ships to stay in the service, not enough ships to many officers. In my 22 years in the USN, 16 at sea, CO's only got 18 month tours, then off to hopefully drive a desk get promoted and maybe another sea command. This system might be great during war time where a reserve of marginally trained CO's are needed but in the modern Navy maybe having a CO with years and years of commanding each type of ship is needed. I know those at the deck plate level would like it if the new CO had say ten years of commanding a DDG when he took over.

 

[Wxx3]

Getting back to the USS Fizgerald, there's a Navy tradition at work that might handicap CO's. CapnRob is right, " some are seaman and some are not" . From what I read about the DDG's skipper he has a typical background, ROTC in college, history major, some junior officer sea duty, back ashore for more degreees, staff duty, back to sea as XO, then CO. In the armed forces it's get promoted or out you go. There are lopesided figures on O-4/O-5 that want command of ships to stay in the service, not enough ships to many officers. In my 22 years in the USN, 16 at sea, CO's only got 18 month tours, then off to hopefully drive a desk get promoted and maybe another sea command. This system might be great during war time where a reserve of marginally trained CO's are needed but in the modern Navy maybe having a CO with years and years of commanding each type of ship is needed. I know those at the deck plate level would like it if the new CO had say ten years of commanding a DDG when he took over.

On gov't waste, you all are right.

For the Fitzgerald and Crystal, I still think by not transmitting AIS data, the Fitzgerald didn't let the Crystal help them.

What I'm trying to say is that this is how I see the events unfolding:

The Fitzgerald were both headed in the same direction.
The Fitzgerald was not underway or was going slowly. They then speed up.

The Crystal in the meantime first sees the Fitzgerald as a boat they will pass by on the Fitzgerald's stbd side.

About 10 min before the collision is when the Crystal realizes the Fitzgerald is now on a converging course.
That's when they do their light signals.
Fitzgerald can't be totally clueless, they decide to speed up (Or they are accelerating the entire time)

I think the acceleration is important factor because it's that acceleration, without benefit of AIS information which will befuddle the Crystal crew and it's radar.

Remember it's dark. It's hard to tell in the dark what is going on.

Some minutes before the collision, the Crystal turns right to avoid the ship on the left.
But runs into the accelerating Fitzgerald.

 

[Group9]

On gov't waste, you all are right.

For the Fitzgerald and Crystal, I still think by not transmitting AIS data, the Fitzgerald didn't let the Crystal help them.

What I'm trying to say is that this is how I see the events unfolding:

The Fitzgerald were both headed in the same direction.
The Fitzgerald was not underway or was going slowly. They then speed up.

The Crystal in the meantime first sees the Fitzgerald as a boat they will pass by on the Fitzgerald's stbd side.

About 10 min before the collision is when the Crystal realizes the Fitzgerald is now on a converging course.
That's when they do their light signals.
Fitzgerald can't be totally clueless, they decide to speed up (Or they are accelerating the entire time)

I think the acceleration is important factor because it's that acceleration, without benefit of AIS information which will befuddle the Crystal crew and it's radar.

Remember it's dark. It's hard to tell in the dark what is going on.

Some minutes before the collision, the Crystal turns right to avoid the ship on the left.
But runs into the accelerating Fitzgerald.

That scenario sounds plausible. Because, one thing you don't expect a ship that big to be able to do, but which a navy frigate can do, is the ability to accelerate like a ski boat. We were discussing this last night at dinner with a boater friend who served on a nuclear powered frigate in the Vietnam war

He said the acceleration that ship was capable of was amazing (being nuclear powered) but that that all of the frigates were capable of very high performance acceleration and maneuvers, and he could only imagine that they were more so now.

A lot of people have wondered why the navy ship couldn't have just accelerated out of danger. But, if it actually accelerated into danger, it all makes sense. I guess we will know one day.

 

[BandB]

As to destroyers and collisions, perhaps it has been mentioned earlier, but here's the collision in 2012 in the Persian Gulf between a destroyer and oil tanker.

Navy Ship Collides With Oil Tanker in Strait of Hormuz Video - ABC News

Report was that the destroyer cut right in front of the oil tanker. Deja vu?

 

[MRRiley]

Engineering drills on the mid-watch. A Complacent combat and bridge team. Disaster.

 

[angus99]

Gotta laugh at folks who read about a few possibly boneheaded incidents (we still don't gave all the facts on the Fitz) and write off the entire armed forces and US government. Wonder what the accident rate per thousand sea miles logged by the Navy might be?

I worked in both govt and private sectors -- organizations that performed similar work -- and can attest to waste, fraud and abuse in both . . . also to diligence, cost-consciousness, professionalism and ethics. Nobody has a monopoly on high performance, greed or stupidity.

 

[Group9]

Gotta laugh at folks who read about a few possibly boneheaded incidents (we still don't gave all the facts on the Fitz) and write off the entire armed forces and US government. Wonder what the accident rate per thousand sea miles logged by the Navy might be?

I worked in both govt and private sectors -- organizations that performed similar work -- and can attest to waste, fraud and abuse in both . . . also to diligence, cost-consciousness, professionalism and ethics.


Nobody has a monopoly on high performance, greed or stupidity.

No, they don't, because the weakest common denominator, human beings, are present everywhere.

 

[angus99]

No, they don't, because the weakest common denominator, human beings, are present everywhere.

Yes . . . as well as the strongest, most creative and courageous common denominators. But it's much easier to only recognize and bitch about the negative.

 

[Group9]

Yes . . . as well as the strongest, most creative and courageous common denominators. But it's much easier to only recognize and bitch about the negative.

Yes, I should have said "weakest and strongest common denominator".

 

[BDofMSP]

Sorry if this was posted already. I missed a few here and there.

Initial investigation blames Navy for USS Fitzgerald collision - CNNPolitics.com

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks for posting. I think that's pretty much what we all expected as a finding.

 

[BandB]

Thanks for posting. I think that's pretty much what we all expected as a finding.

Seemed the most logical.

 

[Group9]

Gotta laugh at folks who read about a few possibly boneheaded incidents (we still don't gave all the facts on the Fitz) and write off the entire armed forces and US government. Wonder what the accident rate per thousand sea miles logged by the Navy might be?

I worked in both govt and private sectors -- organizations that performed similar work -- and can attest to waste, fraud and abuse in both . . . also to diligence, cost-consciousness, professionalism and ethics. Nobody has a monopoly on high performance, greed or stupidity.

Anther thing, is that while many people have the luxury of having jobs where any mistake made, big or little, can be easily corrected once detected with little lasting harm to anyone, there are lots of jobs, where people die when even small mistakes are made.

 

[Ski in NC]

Anther thing, is that while many people have the luxury of having jobs where any mistake made, big or little, can be easily corrected once detected with little lasting harm to anyone, there are lots of jobs, where people die when even small mistakes are made.

True, but this appears to be multiple mistakes by multiple people.

 

[Group9]

True, but this appears to be multiple mistakes by multiple people.

It's still the same principal. I have one brother in law who manages a dozen department stores, and another who is number two in charge of the prison system of a large state. The department store BIL has never seen anyone die because one of his employees, or several of them, made a mistake.The other BIL has.

 

[psneeld]

Good leaders pick up when accident chains are starting to happen....I will be intetested in the final report.

But absolutely.....small mistakes and accident chains in some jobs get out of hand fast.

 

[Bigsfish]

I am also interested in the final report.

I did find it interesting that the CO was injured on impact and couldn't get out of his cabin. I've have a feeling that a lot of small errors added up to a major accident.

 

[catalinajack]

Gotta laugh at folks who read about a few possibly boneheaded incidents (we still don't gave all the facts on the Fitz) and write off the entire armed forces and US government. Wonder what the accident rate per thousand sea miles logged by the Navy might be?

I worked in both govt and private sectors -- organizations that performed similar work -- and can attest to waste, fraud and abuse in both . . . also to diligence, cost-consciousness, professionalism and ethics. Nobody has a monopoly on high performance, greed or stupidity.

Exactly correct!

 

[Benthic2]

(from CNN ) The commanding officer, executive officer and senior non-commissioned officer of the USS Fitzgerald have been removed from their duties for cause amid the fallout surrounding the deadly collision between the USS Fitzgerald and a cargo ship off the coast of Japan on June 17.

USS Fitzgerald's leadership removed from their duties over June collision - CNNPolitics

 

[Steve Jackson]

Interesting that the Navy found fault with the officers and relieved them so long after the accident. I sailed with the Captain that hit the Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor with the hospital ship Mercy, and he is still Captaining (MSC)Navy ships. It was interesting working under him, as he got very uptight starting a couple of days before we had to move the ship, yelling at people and was not in a very good place to operate the ship. So a Navy fighting ship I guess is different from a ship that supplies fuel and supplies to a Navy ship. One looses his command and the other is allowed to continue to operate ships

 

[BandB]

Interesting that the Navy found fault with the officers and relieved them so long after the accident. I sailed with the Captain that hit the Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor with the hospital ship Mercy, and he is still Captaining (MSC)Navy ships. It was interesting working under him, as he got very uptight starting a couple of days before we had to move the ship, yelling at people and was not in a very good place to operate the ship. So a Navy fighting ship I guess is different from a ship that supplies fuel and supplies to a Navy ship. One looses his command and the other is allowed to continue to operate ships

There is nothing firm that these commanders won't be allowed to operate other ships in the future. They were just removed from the Fitzgerald. More administrative than anything since the ship won't be operating anytime soon and they no longer were on duty. Further decisions will come after the completion of the investigation. They haven't been stripped of rank or discharged.

 

[HiDHo]

I would guess the Captain of the Mercy was not disciplined because a pilot was conning the vessel. The Mercy is not a commissioned ship of the Navy.
The Navy releaving officers and petty officers of duties has to do with them being court martialed. Those charged with lesser infractions get non-judial punishment ( Captain's Mast) which can be demotion in pay grade, restriction, extra duty, etc.

 

[MRRiley]

Court marshaled might have been an option but it carries the weight of a federal felony conviction. Associated with intentional crimes, dishonorable discharges, and incarceration.

In this case they were probably dealt with at Admirals Mast, a "non-judicial" proceeding like Captains mast. Captains mast back in the days is something few would have gone without for some infraction. These days, your career is effectively done.

There guys won't be commanding anything other than a desk and probably a rather small and insignificant one at that, until they get to retirement if close.

As for the time frame, in this case they needed to get the CO healed up and the command at least somewhat functional. If what I read is accurate there must have been significant personal challenges to get to, assemble, and evaluate all the information.

That the Command Master Chief got caught up is really a relatively modern development and in my mind, speaks to the lack of functionality throughout the command.

 

[MRRiley]

I would guess the Captain of the Mercy was not disciplined because a pilot was conning the vessel. The Mercy is not a commissioned ship of the Navy.

In this case they likely erred in the CO's favor. In the Navy the CO is not responsible for the ship in only two situations; any body know what they are?

USNS - United States Naval Ship, Civilian Master and mixed crew. Usually a USN O or senior CPO type around some where to keep any junior enlisted in line.

 

[psneeld]

The concept of senior enlisted was emasculated during the 1980s with touchy feely leadership...at that point, what the heck, a LTJG could administer extra military instruction as well as a chief. Chiefs were suppised to be able to correct minor stuff before it got to "O" country. Not in todays wimpy world.

Nope, all those relieved might as well retire or get out.

One of the most senior and revered Captains in the USCG reviewed my files when I was passed over for promotion to Captain. His comment was never before had he seen a file like that (without one negative comment and many awards) get a person passed over. He said I must have pissed off the wrong guy...heck, I know I piss off plenty. But a major error like a collision in todays military, if you dont get slammed, or jail time, good assignments are only a dream.