paper charts

[cks]

Getting back to the question at hand. MFD’s are excellent and reliable but I would always keep those paper charts.

 

[OldDan1943]

Ahem, 'dead reckoning' please. Sorry.

LOL Spell checker plus some keys no longer work on y laptop.

 

[darkside]

I have only had GPS go down once on the last day of an Australia to NZ trip. Let me tell you that it is no fun approaching Farewell Spit at 3am without positioning. I have also had one lightning side swipe that took out the GPS, and one that didn't.

You used to be able to purchase a device that gave position on paper charts. You logged in three known points on the chart and the master unit then beeped when the cursor was in the correct position as you moved it around the chart.

But mostly paper charts are great for the daily plot and keeping the crew engaged with a long journey.

 

[markpierce]

Paper charts can provide a wider perspective/view.

 

[BandB]

Paper charts can provide a wider perspective/view.

Wifey B: And an out of date perspective.

 

[fgarriso]

My wife is watching a trawler journey documentary. The yacht has every electronic navigation aid imaginable but still uses paper charts as well. She asked why they would use paper charts too and I didn't have a good answer.

Can you help educate her and myself as well.

Tell your wife that you NEED them in case the power goes out at the helm and NONE of your fancy new electronics will work.

I still use them. I plot my course on them in pensile, and mark the boat position at the top of each hour. SEAMANSHIP

 

[CharlieO.]

As others have mentioned not all interesting points are shown on your digital apps.

When I was in Alaska and used to just browse the charts underway, you would see locations of abandoned villages, coastal cabins, old canneries or logging operations, mining settlements. Many pre-1964. These were all places of interest to me, and opportunities to explore.

I don't have really any experience with the newer nav stuff, but it sounds like the people that keep the paper charts on hand are more likely people to get a little farther off the beaten path.

 

[ranger58sb]

I like raster over vector...but that's just me...it has it's limitations too just like some vector charts. No increased situational awareness for me at least.

For those that keep saying they are different....how is a raster chart on a screen any different than a paper chart? It's basically just a photo of it.

I prefer raster, too.

FWIW, I think when some say they dislike or have trouble with "electronic" charts they really mean vector charts.

Our previous MFD (Furuno NN3D, now kinda old) served up either or both. The current (Garmin) only does vector...

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

I prefer raster, too.

FWIW, I think when some say they dislike or have trouble with "electronic" charts they really mean vector charts.

Our previous MFD (Furuno NN3D, now kinda old) served up either or both. The current (Garmin) only does vector...

-Chris

I am pretty sure many are using poor navigating MFDs with Vector charts.

When I was, I liked paper too.

After graduating to an easy charting program and keeping the raster versus vector format.... my mind switched easily to the electronic charting and I haven't pulled paper in years.

Plenty of times I used a bearing and distance from an object quickly measured on my laptop nav to correlate with my radar or a temporary lack in GPS signal.

I remember working on fishing vessels 20 years ago as an electronics tech and marveling at their desktop computers and charting software. So when I bought my trawler and it only had now defunct LORAN on them, and electronic nav on a laptop was available, easy and inexpensive.... I jumped on it. I figured if commercial fisherman used it back in the day...it must have had something going for it.

 

[Bluewater2]

I accept and understand that this is the comment / view of an ancient mariner and will not be appreciated, but - I learnt sailing and navigation back when seamanship (not a word in heard much anymore) was important and necessary. No Loran or SatNav or GPS, no bow thrusters, almost no autopilots (windvanes were a wonderful thing), no electronic route planning or waypoints or electronic route link to the autopilot, etc. - and ded reckoning was a critical skill to be learned (usually the hard way). To own and operate a boat - especially around the British, French, and Portuguese coasts in my case - required acquiring seamanship skills, including boat handling. OK - technology moves on, and I could no longer take a star sight to save my life and I fully embrace (and do not want to ever be without) my chart plotter, depth sounder, and autopilot.
My point (eventually and referring back to being a grumpy old sailor-type) is that the advent of all this technology seems to have resulted a huge growth of slab-sided power boats with owners who have no clue on how to safely operate a vessel, anchor, or maneuver. In the marine areas around me, and in the marina here, I see incompetent and unsafe boat operations every day. And very few people want to learn - just a reliance on thrusters, GPS, and others getting out of their way (forget the navigation rules and stand-on vessels).
I well know that it is what it is and is not going to change - except more and more reliance on electronics, thrusters, joysticks, and nylon rode. But I miss the days of seamanship and safe operation………. OK - useless and pointless old man rant now finished and I’ll go back to plotting a route on my MFD and greasing the autopilot ram….. (while fondling my remaining paper charts!)

 

[Seevee]

If we look at the history of chart plotters and paper charts, the plotters are a rather young development.... developed pretty much in the 1990s and became very popular after 2000. The first were quite expensive and limited and exploded with features at a lower price.



Paper charts were invented some where in the mid 1800s and were recently discontinues (by the US printing office) around 2015, for a reason.... they just weren't very popular any more, and really not necessary.


When we hear the "what happens if I loose all my electricity and all my plotters", we just have to wonder how prepared the captain was. When was the last time you lost EVERYTHING, including your iPad and iPhone? Never?
Just a poor argument.


Granted, some paper gives info that the electronic charts don't have, but Google maps is for that.... WAY more info that a paper chart. And there's TONs of other electronic sources of marine travel info... guides, routing, places to see, anchorages, etc., etc.... and, yes, you can still get some of it in paper. Plenty of stuff, so you can throw your paper charts out the window.... or use them for shade on the window.


The last paper charts I used was in the 90s which was a loran C chart for loberstering....

 

[OldDan1943]

Okay, so you lost all your 12vt power and your navigation displays go dark.
Oh did I mention you are out of WiFi and cellular range? Assuming you knew your position 15 minutes ago.... a paper chart and a good compass would be nice.

 

[psneeld]

Okay, so you lost all your 12vt power and your navigation displays go dark.
Oh did I mention you are out of WiFi and cellular range? Assuming you knew your position 15 minutes ago.... a paper chart and a good compass would be nice.

I hate to use the words I want too.... so I won't.

Dan...electronic charts can be downloaded on a electronic card and can be reloaded on any device capable of accepting them...In my case with a passenger aboard that is 2 phones, 2 pads and 4 laptops.

Maybe crossing an ocean I could theoretically lose all... but I bet I could get one charged and good enough to make landfall....but I have a bigger chance of getting hit by a meteor than having to go through all that.

You have NO idea as to what is going on with electronic nav and I am sorry to have to point that out.

Ai any time I can plot a fix on an electronic device and some will nicely DR for me. I don't have to have GPS to get a fix necessarily and plotting a fix on an electronic chart is just about or as easy as a paper chart.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how people do not know that.

 

[Davil1]

I hate to use the words I want too.... so I won't.

Dan...electronic charts can be downloaded on a electronic card and can be reloaded on any device capable of accepting them...In my case with a passenger aboard that is 2 phones, 2 pads and 4 laptops.

Maybe crossing an ocean I could theoretically lose all... but I bet I could get one charged and good enough to make landfall....but I have a bigger chance of getting hit by a meteor than having to go through all that.

You have NO idea as to what is going on with electronic nav and I am sorry to have to point that out.

Ai any time I can plot a fix on an electronic device and some will nicely DR for me. I don't have to have GPS to get a fix necessarily and plotting a fix on an electronic chart is just about or as easy as a paper chart.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how people do not know that.

========================
we do know that
just like paper charts.
no rationale needed

 

[AlanT]

I have only had GPS go down once on the last day of an Australia to NZ trip. Let me tell you that it is no fun approaching Farewell Spit at 3am without positioning. I have also had one lightning side swipe that took out the GPS, and one that didn't.

View attachment 122931

I was just thinking that. I was helping (or perhaps hindering!) my electronics installer in FL (Lamplighter Marine) outfitting a new boat. We had a lightning storm and the next day he was pretty much swamped with calls from owners whose boats had suffered electrical damage from that storm, either strikes (2 boats) or strangely behaving equipment. One strike completely wiped out all electronics on board.

Florida is the most lightning prone state in the US with an average of 25 strikes per square mile each year: https://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml
https://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=16304

 

[OldDan1943]

Let's face it. Having or not having paper charts is an individual choice. SMILE

 

[CaptTom]

Granted, some paper gives info that the electronic charts don't have, but Google maps is for that.... WAY more info that a paper chart.

I haven't dragged out paper charts for navigating in years. I wanted that out of the way first...

But you can't dismiss the lack of important information on the new vector charts out of hand. For people cruising unfamiliar waters, it's a real handicap not having that data in front of you.

Google maps doesn't work without good cellular data coverage. Guide books don't usually offer much real navigation help.

I picture myself in trouble, off an unfamiliar coast. I have time to get off a quick VHF call in between trying to cope with the issue. The most important thing is to send a good location. A precise Lat/Long is great, but I really want to include reference to some geographic place name. If nothing else, it gets the attention of potential rescuers who might be near enough to help.

Underway in unfamiliar waters, I like to be prepared for that. Knowing the names of landmarks around me is pretty important in case I end up needing to make that call. Vector charts are nowhere near as helpful as the old raster charts for this. Whether they're on paper or electronic is less important.

 

[AlanT]

I have an observation. What seems to be getting lost in this lively discussion, at least from the standpoint of those who feel that paper charts are an anachronism - is that I suspect everyone on here who has pointed out why they like paper charts, actually uses electronic charts for daily navigation.

Most if not all of them are aware of and use, daily, the wonderful capabilities of their electronically equipped vessels.

Knowing this they have attempted to answer the OP's question and explain from their own experiences why a paper chart can either (i) come in handy, or (ii) might be a lifesaver, or (iii) might purely be a preference based on familiarity.

This does not make them anti-chartplotter, or luddites.

I have a car, it is amazing, almost new it can even park itself. Strangely this gives me no particular pleasure. Until recently I also had a 1972 mid-engine Italian car that was primitive even in its day. It was a bear to drive around town with no power steering, you had to know exactly how to engage second gear in the gated housing to avoid an embarrassing crunch.

I did not drive it every day, but when I did it gave me pleasure.

~A

 

[DDW]

I have been using plotting software on a 14-16 inch laptop that is more than adequate for the nav that I do. Not sure why you think a raster chart from NOAA isn't available on a 14 inch laptop...I have been using them for a decade. You can zoom in on a raster with great definition where a large marina fills the whole screen

Apparently you did not read my post for comprehension. Of course raster charts are available on electronic displays. Go back and read again - your visibility into that raster chart is either a miniature version of the whole, or a small part of it. It's like going to the Sistine Chapel and only being allowed to look at a postcard of it, or view through binoculars one tiny part at a time. You can claim to have seen it, but not the same experience at all.

Wifey B: And an out of date perspective.

It is surprising how little a coastline changes in many decades. Nav aids change, though usually slowly, but rocks take a very long time. And in any case, electronically distributed raster charts are updated, usually monthly.

Dan...electronic charts can be downloaded on a electronic card and can be reloaded on any device capable of accepting them...In my case with a passenger aboard that is 2 phones, 2 pads and 4 laptops.

Maybe crossing an ocean I could theoretically lose all... but I bet I could get one charged and good enough to make landfall....but I have a bigger chance of getting hit by a meteor than having to go through all that.

I have seen lightening take out every single electronic device on a boat, as well as many of the switches and motors. Your 2 phones, 2 pads, and 4 laptops will be bricks. You are far more likely to be hit by lightening than a meteor - it is actually a fairly common insurance claim, even in coastal and inland waters. The claim often involves replacing all the electronics on board.

You can navigate effectively with raster, vector, paper, or electronic means. It is quite ignorant to say that there are not both advantages and disadvantages to each of those methods. An individual chooses what works most effectively for them. That does not mean their choice is best for everyone.

 

[psneeld]

Apparently you did not read my post for comprehension. Of course raster charts are available on electronic displays. Go back and read again - your visibility into that raster chart is either a miniature version of the whole, or a small part of it. It's like going to the Sistine Chapel and only being allowed to look at a postcard of it, or view through binoculars one tiny part at a time. You can claim to have seen it, but not the same experience at all.



It is surprising how little a coastline changes in many decades. Nav aids change, though usually slowly, but rocks take a very long time. And in any case, electronically distributed raster charts are updated, usually monthly.



I have seen lightening take out every single electronic device on a boat, as well as many of the switches and motors. Your 2 phones, 2 pads, and 4 laptops will be bricks. You are far more likely to be hit by lightening than a meteor - it is actually a fairly common insurance claim, even in coastal and inland waters. The claim often involves replacing all the electronics on board.

You can navigate effectively with raster, vector, paper, or electronic means. It is quite ignorant to say that there are not both advantages and disadvantages to each of those methods. An individual chooses what works most effectively for them. That does not mean their choice is best for everyone.

Maybe I just don't agree and find that I see what I need on electronic rasters adequately... I don't need an "experience of the whole chart"...I just need to navigate with it.

Hard for me to see a problem that I don't have..... Which is all I am saying about many of the complaints about electronic charts. I know they have their place at times...just not for many of the resons brought up against e charting.

I also have seen lightning damage...towed a vessel once who lost their engine computers....

In a lifetime on the water I have only have seen or heard of a couple of lightning strikes taking out more than structure or varied objects and not everything.... I feel I am more likely to catch fire or sink than worry about lightning.

And if making landfall without electronics...even if you have paper charts... unless you have a sextant and are decent with it....I will take my chances and visually nav till I can get assistance....in that million to one situation.

 

[JWellington]

In the same way we have seen recently that some boaters dont accept electric induction stoves over old fashioned propane, wood and coal, some dont accept modern electronic navigation aids over old fashioned maps.

 

[sean9c]

How about trawlers are slow, passages are slow and boring, there is nothing to do. Plotting your position on paper charts and just generally looking at them is fun and gives you something to do. And, I don't know about anyone else but plotting my position on a paper chart gives me a real sense of security. I know where I am and I know how to get where I'm going without outside assistance. Not sure the guy looking at his MFD can say that if it goes black.
Ya, I like the electronic stuff also.

 

[BandB]

It is surprising how little a coastline changes in many decades. Nav aids change, though usually slowly, but rocks take a very long time. And in any case, electronically distributed raster charts are updated, usually monthly.

True in some areas, not in others. People using aged paper charts are in trouble in some areas.

 

[JWellington]

A few have said that the GPS had gone down, not their devices, but gps itself. But none of them said for how long. Does anybody know the record on that? One hour , one day, one week?

 

[phillippeterson]

This has been a fun topic! The OP simply asked the function of paper charts to explain to his wife why an electronically equipped trawler she was following online was using them. A question which he was not able to answer.

A number of fine people dived in and provided reasons why someone might use or just have on board a paper chart even though having electronic plotters available.

That was a perfectly adequate answer to the OPs question.

It is unclear to my why a number of other fine people waged in on why paper charts are completely unnecessary, extolling all the advantages of chartplotters and one even calling those using them luddites etc. The perils of answering innocent questions!
~A

Not to worry. We're loving all the varied tangent responses!

 

[phillippeterson]

LOL Spell checker plus some keys no longer work on y laptop.

I see what you did there. :lol:

 

[BandB]

One word I see tossed around here is "seamanship" and it's used to refer to paper and lack of electronics. It is falsely used to imply that somehow using sextant or older methods is seamanship and using modern electronics is not. "Seamanship is the skill, techniques, or practice of handling a ship or boat at sea." It includes the utilization of whatever tools are available. Those who did so prior to electronics displayed no better seamanship than those with full electronics nor do those with full electronics exhibit better seamanship. They both just use the tools of their time. To imply that somehow sailing without today's tools is better seamanship is just plane false. I am trained in celestial navigation but to turn all electronics off and use it to cross the Atlantic wouldn't be good seamanship.

I'm just tired of people implying using previous methods is somehow seamanship and using today's equipment is not. I also wonder how many of those advocates are actually trained in celestial navigation or even know how to use a sextant or even have a sextant? How many even have compasses that still function if all other electronics fail. About once a year we do an exercise just for fun. Requires scientific calculator, plotting tools, sextant, starfinder, nautical almanac, bowditch. And I admit, I'm lousy at figuring out the stars, while my wife has all that down perfectly, but I'm a bit better at the plotting. Fun little game, but I'd sure hate to have to cross the Atlantic that way. I recall Columbus missed his target significantly and I might too.

Much of the oldtimer's seamanship was experience. I never needed any electronics, not even depthfinders on the lake I grew up on. I knew the trees, the fishing spots, the shoals, the underwater structures, the old sunken docks. First time I needed anything more was at night in a storm and that was my first time using radar as anything other than a plaything.

For all who like paper charts, more power to you. Nothing wrong with liking them or having them. Just stop implying that somehow your seamanship is better because you have them. Just leave it simple as "I like them and I'm more comfortable having them along."

As to age, if they're last years, probably good. However, on the loop we did run across someone who ran aground using 20 year old charts. The shoal was clearly marked on current charts. Now, frankly, water coloration should have been a clue too. Notices to mariners are key in many areas. Jacksonville, FL has more changes per decade than anywhere I can think of. Off shore not much changes on either coast, but ICW sure does. I've only been going to the Bahamas around 9 years but have seen major changes there.

And I don't profess to have the experience of some here. There are those who sail commercially in the Great Lakes or in the Gulf of Mexico or the Mississippi or other areas who know those areas by memory and charts. I've made one trip to Alaska vs. those who have spent decades there. My wife and I and several other licensed captains aboard were thrilled to have input on the Seine last summer from the tour captains who navigated it daily.

So happy boating to all. Paper or not. Our seven year old niece is outgrowing paper but she has built a wonderful scrapbook. Of course she's now scanned it and digitalized it. She's still kept the paper though. If it makes you happy, do it. I personally don't even like the feel of paper in my hands.

 

[DDW]

For all who like paper charts, more power to you. Nothing wrong with liking them or having them. Just stop implying that somehow your seamanship is better because you have them. Just leave it simple as "I like them and I'm more comfortable having them along."

I've not implied that, but I have objected to particular posts which flat out state that those using paper charts must be ignorant of electronic charting equipment and methods. It is actually great familiarity with them that makes one appreciate the advantages that paper charts have. And they do still have some. Maybe not compelling advantages to a particular individual, but that does not make everyone else ignorant.

Also, using an electronic calculator to do your sight reduction is kinda cheating, isn't it?

 

[JWellington]

I've not implied that, but I have objected to particular posts which flat out state that those using paper charts must be ignorant of electronic charting equipment and methods. It is actually great familiarity with them that makes one appreciate the advantages that paper charts have. And they do still have some. Maybe not compelling advantages to a particular individual, but that does not make everyone else ignorant.

Also, using an electronic calculator to do your sight reduction is kinda cheating, isn't it?

Some admitted they dont know how to use the modern sysytems, others pointed out specific examples of how others dont. It's like how so many old timers have problems with computers and cell phones.

 

[backinblue]

Yet in the 100s (1000s?) Of posts I've read, I don't recall anyone relating a credible actual story of needing, having, and using paper charts for navigation when electronics failed. Versus phone, tsblet, or PC navigation options

Half way through the week-long delivery trip of my (new) boat, I failed to notice my batteries weren't charging. My GPS gave a few low-voltage warnings before turning off. Maybe my bad for not having or even knowing about other electronic backups but I did pack paper charts for the planned route and immediately switched to them for the remainder of the day till we got to an anchorage where I could troubleshoot the charging issue.