Potential New Build On The Horizon?

[Peter B]

We share two aspects of this with you. 1-We like to build and buy new boats. We enjoy the decision and selection process. 2-It's really not about the size or type of boat. If all we had was a small boat back on the lake, we'd still love boating with it. We just love boats. Having access to the water is so important and just can't be a period without a boat as you've realized once again.

Water Rat (aka Ratty) said it more succinctly...

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing, as simply messing about in boats".

Bugger..! Just turn it on its side and zoom...

 

[N4061]

Having Fun with logistics

Its interesting how even the little things associated with boating can become the most challenging and potentially ruin even the best plan. While we are fortunate we don't need to find a slip in todays crazy "nothing is available for 3-6 years" we do have other issues to contend with. We live in a gated community with an HOA that does not permit trailers (or anything else) be parked outside. We liked this concept when we first drove around the community and didn't see large Motorhomes (common around this area) or trailers parked on the side of the houses despite the relatively large (for southern California) average lot size of 2 acres. With this constraint in mind we knew the boat would have to fit into the garage and in part drove our decision making process. We have a large and deep (24') three car garage with a bonus area (wish the original builder would have made it four cars) but with three cars already inside things are going to be tight.

Before committing to the Sandpiper I found myself rearranging the cars and parking Mary's sports car next to the bonus area to help maximize space. I then took out the measuring tape and starting measuring using the dimensions Geoff provided. LOA is 22', beam 7'6' and height 7'. The garage door offers 7'6" of height so we are OK there. Despite having 24' of depth I don't have an extra space so I need to make the bonus area work. After a few trial and errors using blue tape on the floor I found an "angle" that works with about 2" to spare (ouch). We will have to move Mary's car every time I need to move the boat and will be pushing it around by hand so hopefully trailer moves easily and my back doesn't wake up.

When I was in the middle of measuring Mary came outside to see what I was doing. looked at the tape on the ground and asked "are we playing forensics" ? We recently started watching the TV show (Forensics) and have come addicted to it. She then said "you better be right on your measurements" and walked back inside the house. While the photo below is not the final positioning we plan to use it was one of the trials (bow facing towards the garage door).

Always something with a boat and beats thinking about work!

John T

 

[FWT]

Two INCHES to spare? You have more nerve than me. Trying to picture backing in (hard enough with room) with 2 inches to work with. You are a pretty creative engineer. I'd be putting that skill to work figuring out if there is a way to shorten the package.

A checklist item for you when you get your friend's help. Balance the rig. Meaning, the sail area etc. so that you don't have to use much rudder to go straight. Every bit of rudder use is drag, in a sailboat where this costly and you can't just throw another 100 RPM at it to compensate. I say that because the old knock on cats is that some just can't balance well, compared to rigs with multiple sails. Playing with the centerboard and gaff a bit might be a key. Its a case of where the sail center of effort is versus the below water lateral center of resistance (which changes with more or less centerboard extended, and I would suspect with how tightly the gaff is pulled in, but I have no experience with that latter part). And frankly with a small daysailer how far fore or aft you choose to sit.

I really like the look of the boat so don't misunderstand. But as you move forward with something bigger you will come to understand there are a lot of ways to get ease and simplicity even with more sails. Such as a jib with a boom at the foot to make it self-tending as you tack. As you gain experience you will find you don't even need that, so long as you keep your genoa / jib size down to something modest.

 

[N4061]

Insurance

So today I realized my Boat US membership card recently expired and I should look into insurance for this little cat. To be honest its been a long time since I trailered a boat I didn't remember if I can get all the coverage from Boat US or if I needed to call GEICO. After only a few minutes on the phone with a Boat US agent did I quickly realize despite the Cat's smaller size many of of the same questions, requirements and issues we experienced with larger trawlers were back.

What year is the boat? Heck I'm assuming its a 2021 but thinking about it a little more I realized many builders will sell a new boat in Q4 as the next year model similar to cars. I'll need to confirm and get back with you!

What is the Hull ID number? Heck I don't know, its not on the one page (OK, half page contract) but I'll ask. So off went the email to Geoff.

While I'm not overly concerned with the above (I do have a photo of the boat) it does raise the question of trust versus contractual matters and protecting one self.

When I look back at the purchase agreement I signed for the Nordhavn's I recall thinking "if anything goes wrong with this new build I'm likely screwed" but what are you going to do? Even the best contract can only protect you so far and with Boats its only riskier. This is were I believe you need to rely more on the builders reputation than anything else and recognizing there will always be some level of risk and there are no guarantees.

So with Geoff who took over the shop from his father and has been doing something right the past XX years I have a good feeling about him and trusting everything will work fine. His handling of the deposit versus final payment and a few other items only confirms my positive feeling towards him and how he operates. Looking forward to seeing the boat in the photo for the first time when it arrives mid December since I will not be able to fly out this week and see it in person.

John T.

 

[N4061]

Anchor or No Anchor

As crazy as this may sound to Trawler Owners I'm seriously thinking about this decision. Yea, I know we are not going anyplace far and can likely drift to a stop along the sand, pier, docked boats or even the rocks. "Rocks" ouch, that is a little concerning and thinking about where we will be spending most of our time we will be surrounded by them. Granted we will have the little electric OB (3 HP) but it will take a little time to set up once its stowed. Then there is the thing called a "sail" which will likely cause me to head towards the rocks in the first place and I'll have to quickly let it down. Then what do I do while Mary is yelling at me to get her off this dang Cat and Sailor Blue is barking as to say "watch the rocks ahead, I'm jumping off".

Would a 5lb anchor tied to rope even catch and stop me or at least buy me time to set up the OB? Then where do we store it? Not a lot of space in a 15' boat and we already have to find a place for battery, propeller shaft and controls. I'm already stating to think we may need a bigger boat. Just cant seem to find the ultimate simple boat, can I?

John

 

[FWT]

I can't picture what you are doing for an engine mount, but can you mount the engine while on the trailer in the parking lot before you approach the ramp?

You are going to want a ramp where there is a short pier or someplace to tie off briefly while you park the truck after launch. Mount the engine there and then head off?

No matter what you do, there is a certain amount of chaos in raising sails, tie off the halyards and clean up those lines, meanwhile the moment you begin that the wind will begin to act on whatever sail is up as it goes up. Move briskly with a standard routine. This is a light daysailer and will be more tender under your feet than you are used to. Now throw in wake from someone else leaving the ramp. You can do it in 60 seconds on a daysailer, with a routine, but it will feel much longer with the wind on the sails. Do yourself one favor: You must begin with the centerboard down and the boat pointing dead into the wind, and you must be sure step #1 is make sure the mainsheet is out and free so that if / when the boat itself begins to point a bit off the wind the sail doesn't fully fill, and instead continues to luff (flap) until you are seated and ready to trim it and sail off.

Your friend will show you all of that. See the routine once and it becomes obvious.

Do yourself a favor for the sake of the sanity risk you outline: the first time you do this without your friend, do it solo. No wife, no dog. Saving the marriage comes first.

Its easier from a slip. No truck and ramp complications and no ramp traffic. Take your time settling in with engine and whatnot, motor out to a quiet spot, point into the wind and raise the sail. No one behind you on the ramp impatient for you to get out of the way.

 

[N4061]

Thanks for the tips

I can't picture what you are doing for an engine mount, but can you mount the engine while on the trailer in the parking lot before you approach the ramp?

You are going to want a ramp where there is a short pier or someplace to tie off briefly while you park the truck after launch. Mount the engine there and then head off?

No matter what you do, there is a certain amount of chaos in raising sails, tie off the halyards and clean up those lines, meanwhile the moment you begin that the wind will begin to act on whatever sail is up as it goes up. Move briskly with a standard routine. This is a light daysailer and will be more tender under your feet than you are used to. Now throw in wake from someone else leaving the ramp. You can do it in 60 seconds on a daysailer, with a routine, but it will feel much longer with the wind on the sails. Do yourself one favor: You must begin with the centerboard down and the boat pointing dead into the wind, and you must be sure step #1 is make sure the mainsheet is out and free so that if / when the boat itself begins to point a bit off the wind the sail doesn't fully fill, and instead continues to luff (flap) until you are seated and ready to trim it and sail off.

Your friend will show you all of that. See the routine once and it becomes obvious.

Do yourself a favor for the sake of the sanity risk you outline: the first time you do this without your friend, do it solo. No wife, no dog. Saving the marriage comes first.

Its easier from a slip. No truck and ramp complications and no ramp traffic. Take your time settling in with engine and whatnot, motor out to a quiet spot, point into the wind and raise the sail. No one behind you on the ramp impatient for you to get out of the way.

Thanks for all the great tips! Totally agree with everything you pointed out and saving the marriage. While its been 20 years since trailing and launching a boat I'm not overly concerned with this process. Now raising the mast and locking everything down is a different story. I'm thinking about trying this first with the boat on the trailer in my driveway before any wind picks up. As you pointed out I don't need pressure from others who may be launching their boats.

Regarding the centerboard I'm still confused on why people play around with the amount of board lowered? Its a dang keel so why not drop it all the way and move on? Hope I remember to lift it up before putting the boat back onto the trailer (ouch).

Assuming I can handle the raising and lowering of the mast by myself I will likely take the boat out and test the electric motor around the harbor. Following that will be a day learning how to sail with a buddy who use to teach sailing to kids.

John

 

[FWT]

Happy to help.

I can't see the boat in person or make too many judgements. Your buddy to help will be pure gold in value.

My general advice would be to do as much prep as you can in the ramp parking lot before you back down. Including, probably, raise the mast there, and install the motor on whatever bracket you will have. That assumes several things. First is that having the motor on the bracket is do-able with whatever the trailer setup is. So that it won't inhibit a clean launch from the trailer. Second, that the parking lot is reasonably smooth with no overhead wires and such, so that as you drive to the ramp the weight in the air isn't going to cause the boat to shift around on the trailer.

If that works, you can take your time on the hard to raise the mast and secure it nicely. After launch, just tie up briefly, move your truck, step aboard and motor away.

Why fiddle with the centerboard? The basic answer is you probably won't, much. Maybe downwind you should lift it some. You will be surprised at how much drag it represents, and downwind you won't need much down. With wind on the beam or tacking to windward you will want it all or most down.

The exception to that is what I mentioned before. It depends on your boat and rig balance. As an engineer picture something. Picture the spot on the rail where if you pushed the boat sideways, that spot is where the resistance point is balanced, and it moves straight sideways with the bow and stern moving the same amount. IE push on the bow and the bow will move. Push on the stern and the stern will move. That balance point depends on the underwater area, with full centerboard, and it won't be in the exact middle of the boat. Now picture that the sail will have a center of pressure against it. If that center were right up at the bow, the boat would want to push the bow downwind. If the center were far aft near the stern the wind would want to push the stern over. In either case you need a lot of rudder to go straight. If the two centers are perfectly matched, then none. A LITTLE bit of rudder is normal. A lot is a ton of drag. So that said, you can change the center of the boat by reducing the amount of centerboard. With a cat rig you can't adjust sails.

Trust me, at some point you will simply forget to lower the centerboard. And be mystified for a few seconds as to why the boat is sliding sideways and it won't obey the rudder. If you don't make that mistake sometime, you will be the first ever to claim the title.

 

[FWT]

One more thing. I gotta say it. Its a daysailer. The boom will be sweeping low as you tack. Or jibe. Duck. Turn your attention elsewhere and forget, and the smallest problem is that it will hurt like hell. The worst is that you will be knocked cold and overboard. Make sure Mary knows.

 

[PattiS]

I don’t know whether or not this is possible, but have you thought about testing the motor without having to worry about the sail before you go out with your friend for the sail training? Back to your keep it simple concept.

 

[N4061]

Motor Check

I don’t know whether or not this is possible, but have you thought about testing the motor without having to worry about the sail before you go out with your friend for the sail training? Back to your keep it simple concept.

Yes! We are fortunate the little 3hp Torqueedo OB is the same motor we used on our 10' Gig Harbor dingy. We were very impressed with this little motor which replaced our new 5HP Yamaha gas OB. The only difference with the new Torqeedo motor are the modifications performed by another sailboat builder in Maine which allows for a removable small side mount, separate battery storage location and control panel. This set up allows for the lightweight shaft / propeller to be mounted to the bracket while under power and stowed away under the forward deck (we think) while sailing. I have only seen a video of this installation on a similar size sailboat and it appears to work well so I figured lets try it and not ruin the look of the boat with an engine hanging off the transom and getting caught on the sail.

I like to try new and different things (only to a point) and this is new so maybe my experience will help others in their decision process.

First trip on the water will be mast up, no sail and under power only by myself. If all goes well I will return to the dock and pick-up Mary and Sailor Blue (our dog) for a harbor cruise.

John

 

[N4061]

I don’t know whether or not this is possible, but have you thought about testing the motor without having to worry about the sail before you go out with your friend for the sail training? Back to your keep it simple concept.

I just realized you own a Helmsman 38. How long have you have owned it and how are you enjoying it?

John

 

[PattiS]

Glad to hear you will be testing the modified torqueedo safely. We have a Torqueedo, too, and love it. Unfortunately, we don’t have our 38e yet. They just started building ours last weekend. We are expecting delivery late next spring. We enjoyed reading you thread about your selection process for the 38e and it just reinforced our decision to order the 38e.

 

[N4061]

New Boat

Glad to hear you will be testing the modified torqueedo safely. We have a Torqueedo, too, and love it. Unfortunately, we don’t have our 38e yet. They just started building ours last weekend. We are expecting delivery late next spring. We enjoyed reading you thread about your selection process for the 38e and it just reinforced our decision to order the 38e.

Congratulations on your new H38E! They are great boats built to high quality standards and IMO still represent a great value. Feel free to contact me at N4061@yahoo.com with any specific questions you may have on the boat or what to expect after taking delivery including estimated cost of ownership. You are in good hands with Scott and his team.

John

 

[N4061]

Electronics

As with all boat owners the level of required "electronics" is subjective and each owner has their own preference in manufacture and which systems are required. We have experienced the full spectrum from only a compass and VHF radio on our 22' Mako Center Console to our trawlers equipped with enough electronics to go around the world. For the little Sandpiper we will be going "bare basics" (heck we don't even have a battery) so a hand held VHF radio with compass will be on the Christmas shopping list. I recognize the compass is likely overkill for our planned use but what the heck "lets go really big". I know some sailboats have a wind van (of sort) and I'm not sure if my boat does so I'm looking into this. On our N3522 we had a wind direction indicator which I found very helpful during docking. If I only had a battery I would look into this display but need to go old school.

I think that's about it for electronics but the take away for those starting out is understanding how you plan to use your boat and what is required "90% of the time". No need to over spend on anything pertaining to outfitting your boat. Just my thoughts.

John

 

[N4061]

Update

I received an email this morning from Geoff advising they lost power for two days and still have many downed trees in the area resulting from the Noreaster earlier this week. Geoff will wait a few days for the roads to all clear before driving to the other builder who has the motor we plan to purchase. On a positive note he received our deposit and signed contract so we are officially under contract! Feels good to have gotten this far in the process and not have to wait 6-8 months for the boat to be built.

We also received the hull ID number which will allow me to continue researching insurance. Based upon another TF thread I noticed a few folks with insurance through Boat US received hefty premium increases which I found a little surprising. We switched to Boat US about two years ago when we still owned the Helmsman 38E and received a 20% reduction in our premium for the same coverage. Need to look into this a little more next week. This will be the first boat in 15 years we have not placed under an LLC and to be honest having to rethink the registration and insurance process. Always an opportunity to refresh and learn something with boats.


John T

 

[N4061]

Boat Transporation

By chance does anyone on TF know a reputable boat transportation company? While I recognize most companies work with larger boats on an open flat bed we are in need of a closed truck which we can load our 7'6" wide boat / trailer for the run from Maine to San Diego. I thought about sailing her home but don't have the time ...

John

 

[BandB]

By chance does anyone on TF know a reputable boat transportation company? While I recognize most companies work with larger boats on an open flat bed we are in need of a closed truck which we can load our 7'6" wide boat / trailer for the run from Maine to San Diego. I thought about sailing her home but don't have the time ...

John

That's not boat transportation but just cargo transportation. Anyone can do it. Only thing outside the norm is the loading of it and the need of a ramp or ramps the trailer can be rolled up.

 

[N4061]

Boat Transportation

That's not boat transportation but just cargo transportation. Anyone can do it. Only thing outside the norm is the loading of it and the need of a ramp or ramps the trailer can be rolled up.

B&B, that is what I'm starting to think since we only have a 7'6" width to worry about. The trick will be getting the trailer loaded and unloaded with everything weighing around 1,400lbs. (my best estimate boat and trailer). At that weight we can not just roll it up into and down the ramp without risking injury. Time for some creative thinking with this one...

Who would have thought the smallest boat we buy offers the most complex logistics to get it home.

John

 

[Ted]

Pick-up truck and a U-Haul trailer

 

[Peter B]

This...
Just need to set up a winch arrangement to haul her onto the u-haul, then control the roll off again.

 

[BandB]

Pick-up truck and a U-Haul trailer

Actually that does remind me of a solution. Renting a Budget Truck with a trailer hitch. (No, U-haul doesn't have trailer hitches on their trucks even though they sell tons of hitches. They won't let you tow on many of their trucks when budget will.) But rent a truck and tow it across.

 

[N4061]

Transportation

Actually that does remind me of a solution. Renting a Budget Truck with a trailer hitch. (No, U-haul doesn't have trailer hitches on their trucks even though they sell tons of hitches. They won't let you tow on many of their trucks when budget will.) But rent a truck and tow it across.

Towing across the country (Maine to San Diego, CA.) is out of the question due to potential damage. Even shrink wrap is a concern (been there done that) as it tears during transportation. Needs to be shipped "inside" a truck. Easiest would be a custom car carrier but the few spoke with advised they don't do boats. I then called a few boat transport companies in Maine and ended up speaking with a company who knows Geoff at Marshall Marine and said he would call him to figure out something. The real issue as discussed above is loading and unloading not so much the moving. I'm confident we will figure this out within the next few weeks.

John

 

[N4061]

Engine Stowage

Yesterday I received a few photos from Geoff showing the potential stowage of the OB motor. While I wanted to stow it forward under the deck with a couple of bonded in place brackets, Geoff advise the motor was too heavy so we will be taking up floor space (ouch). As everyone knows with boats every foot of floor space is priceless and on a 15'6" day sailor you look for every inch. So the best we can hope for is an off center installation leaving room for other (TBD) items under deck. Below are few photos I received from the builder.

Top left picture is the prop housing keel inserted into the bracket.

Top Right picture is custom mount that will be installed on the side deck about mid section

Bottom left picture is the bracket for the prop housing keel.

Fun stuff....

 

[Hippocampus]

Know there’s been several projects when the design was executed to fit inside a standard shipping container. Your boat might be able to fit and even be braced to prevent damage. That way could be trucked or shipped inside. Don’t know the standard dimensions of such but might be worth a look.

 

[BandB]

Know there’s been several projects when the design was executed to fit inside a standard shipping container. Your boat might be able to fit and even be braced to prevent damage. That way could be trucked or shipped inside. Don’t know the standard dimensions of such but might be worth a look.

It should easily fit in a container or trailer while on trailer and plenty of ways to lift or roll inside. What I am uncertain of is how well it will ride on it's trailer.

 

[FF]

"It should easily fit in a container or trailer while on trailer and plenty of ways to lift or roll inside. What I am uncertain of is how well it will ride on it's trailer."

This might be the safest , low cost way to go coast to coast.

Call a couple of freight brokers for the best price.

 

[Porgy]

Odd, I’ve been passed by trucks on the freeway doing 80, hauling shrink wrapped boats from builders. Plenty of people trailer boats with canvas on them with no ill effect. It’s your boat but trailering a boat long distance doesn’t automatically mean it’ll get damaged.

If it were me getting a brand new Marshall catboat, I’d have driven that Ridgeline of yours nonstop and camped out at the yard waiting to get it. But that me.

 

[twistedtree]

I had to do this for a 16' RIB on trailer, dimensions probably very close to yours. It was a gigantic pain in the ass. Trucking is 95% oriented around loading docks and forklift handling of cargo. And vehicle transport is 95% oriented around driveable cars. Your boat is neither of those things. All my quotes were $3000 to $5000 which is 3x to 5x what an equivalent car or pallet would cost to transport. BTW, I was shipping from FL to WA, the diagonal opposite of your route, but likely similar constraints. In the end, the only logistics that worked were an open flatbed trailer, and a crane or forklift on either end to side load the boat and trailer. That higely narrowed down the number of people who would do the job.

 

[N4061]

Transportation

I had to do this for a 16' RIB on trailer, dimensions probably very close to yours. It was a gigantic pain in the ass. Trucking is 95% oriented around loading docks and forklift handling of cargo. And vehicle transport is 95% oriented around driveable cars. Your boat is neither of those things. All my quotes were $3000 to $5000 which is 3x to 5x what an equivalent car or pallet would cost to transport. BTW, I was shipping from FL to WA, the diagonal opposite of your route, but likely similar constraints. In the end, the only logistics that worked were an open flatbed trailer, and a crane or forklift on either end to side load the boat and trailer. That higely narrowed down the number of people who would do the job.

Wow, interesting to see a real time similar experience and the same issues I'm faced with today. Agree the open flatbed would be easiest from loading and unloading "but" concerned with shrink wrapping tearing open and damaging the wood work (been there / done that). With a 7'6" beam we should be OK fitting into a container "but" as others pointed out what about the trailer moving around and the boat hitting up against the container? How do we ensure the trailer is properly chocked and cannot move? I'm starting to get nervous about transporting this little gem.

Appreciate the comments and ideas so please keep them coming. thanks

John