Rocna's new Anchor????

[Nomad Willy]

Haha Bruce .. The only time my Supreme failed to set I was using the slot for the first time w/o the restrictor bolt. Don't know for sure if the slot had anything to do w it's failure to set. But I think so.

Unless the anchor is stuck on something like a log or cable "soaking" it out w continiously tension should weigh the anchor w/o much trouble.

Mark,
If the shank end stays on the bottom the end should cone around just repositioning the anchor just like most other anchors. Perhaps the slot should be used w lots of chain as that's the obvious way to keep the shank on the bottom. And of course the slot seems to be aimed at coral bottom anchoring and one would assume chain would be used.

 

[hmason]

I believe it's time to gather together all of the anchor threads and posts into a book so that Newbies can get up to speed quickly. It might not be a bad idea to convert them to Cliff Notes so that Newbies won't have to spend months reading the book. Who knows, it might be a best seller. We could share the profits and all buy new anchors.

 

[markpierce]

That would leave readers in total confusion.

 

[Moonstruck]

I believe it's time to gather together all of the anchor threads and posts into a book so that Newbies can get up to speed quickly. It might not be a bad idea to convert them to Cliff Notes so that Newbies won't have to spend months reading the book. Who knows, it might be a best seller. We could share the profits and all buy new anchors.

Here's an idea. Let's get together and come to a consensus to pick the "Official TF" anchor. That should be easy enough to do.

 

[Art]

Here's an idea. Let's get together and come to a consensus to pick the "Official TF" anchor. That should be easy enough to do.

!964 Chevy 409 engine block

 

[hmason]

That's the wrong engine block. You'll be much happier with a Ford Police Interceptor block. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[hmason]

That would leave readers in total confusion.

So?

 

[Art]

That's the wrong engine block. You'll be much happier with a Ford Police Interceptor block. Don't ask me how I know.

OK - I'll Bite... how do you know!

BTW - Chevy 409 was/is one of my favorite big block engines. Buick 430 is too!!!

 

[BruceK]

And if you're anchored for anything over a half day or more in tidal waters, what do you predict when the tidal current reverses?

Based on experience, remaining firmly anchored. As well as tide change, experience includes the prevailing breeze typically switching from onshore to offshore overnight.

 

[ranger58sb]

Chris,
Most everybody here has power winches so using a double size anchor has little downside. All chain rode carries 2 to 3 times as much weight penalty as a double size anchor. ... But the "biggest honker you could find" would sink your boat bow first ... dramatically. But doubling the recomended anchor size would probably add less than 100lbs to a typical boat here. You probably haven't even dated a girl weighing less than 100 lbs. adding 75lbs to a boat as large as yours wouldn't be significant. And adding weight unessasairly to a boat is something I've condemed regularly here.

So the option of a big anchor is open to everyone w a power winch and the performance that goes w it. With the extra weight any of the old anchors will probably have excellent performance.

Heh... yes, hence my additional provision: that I can lift manually, should that nifty electric winch crap out.

Even with all-chain, at least I wouldn't be having to lift all the chain weight all at once. The weight of the "immediate" length from pulpit to bottom would usually only be about 1x of scope, for us that's often around 15', so at 1-lb/ft or so, not such a huge problem.

But anyway, within my lift limits, I'm certainly willing to choose a 50-lb version of Anchor X if the 35-lb version is already known for a good track record in the typical holding grounds we encounter and would work well with our boat weight/length/windage/etc. As you say, for our boat, that extra 15-lbs is insignificant...

-Chris

 

[Art]

One item I don't really understand regarding pleasure-boat anchors... in this 21st Century...

That is - Burdensome Anchor Weight:

DAYS OF YORE

- In days of yore, when high-tech lightweight, strong materials had yet to be invented, it was a given that all anchors needed to be produced with heavyweight old-school material products.

- In days of yore, when high-tech anchor designs had yet been accomplished, it was a given that the extra heavy old-school materials assisted poor anchor designs for setting and holding.

- In days of yore, when pleasure boats were often having or needing a crew of a few to handle tasks required… the weight of an anchor could be “man-handled” by more than one person.

21 CENTURY

- Today there are very strong lightweight materials available for building anchors; old-school heavyweight materials for anchors should become a thing of the past.

- Today there are a plethora of high-tech anchor designs available that will work well with new-age lightweight materials.

- Today many pleasure boats are single hand operated or crewed by only hubby and wife… so even though there are high-tech windlasses available… why have heavyweight anchors?


My reasoning for questioning “why have heavyweight anchors?” is simple.

In reality, during days of yore the heavy anchor weight was a very needed factor due to poor anchor design as well as no lightweight, strong anchor materials available. In reality, today lightweight strong materials for anchor construction would work great with the numerous high-tech designs of good holding ability anchors that are now available. The new anchors set and hold due to improved designs… not necessarly just because the heavyweight of material.

Fortress FX anchors are one of the improved anchor designs (IMO, they are Danforth design on steroids) that uses strong lightweight material. Their setting and holding capabilities stand tall in the field of new anchor designs.

So… I feel I must ask… why are their not now more high-tech anchor designs manufactured using lightweight materials so that “pleasure” boaters no longer need to deal with over burdensome weights of old-school materials that create very heavy anchors?

Happy Anchor-Weight Daze! - Art

 

[Peter B]

Then comes the time of retrieval! So far so good. Each task of breaking loose out of bottom has needed to be accomplished by rode being straight down off boat cleat and breaking loose by engine power; windless and hand power have been unable to accomplish what’s needed. The FX-23 always comes up with Really BIG Gob of mud… showing how great it sets… which is exactly why we purchased it. But, I must admit that Fortress’ deep-setting capabilities have made me wonder if it could ever get set so deep that standard means of retrieval might become a problem.

That was my point really Art. Just imagine if the fortress, setting like it does, but having only a really short stubby shank , just enough to attack it by, but so you could not get any leverage on it when deeply buried. I can see quite a few being cut loose like you described for that reason. Hence my comment on Eric's post re the best holding anchor theoretically having only fluke, and no shank.

 

[Peter B]

Peter B,
I said setting was a problem w the early XYZ. And it was. No such problem w w the later XYZ's. I think you didn't read carefully or made assumptions out of thin air. Also both of the XYZ's I've had come up out of the bottom easily.

I never pluck assumptions out of thin air Eric, you know that. I was however using the XYZ as ana example of an ultra-short shank type of anchor, and how they may well bury very deep- if they in fact set - and therefore might be quite hard to extract when you want to leave, with minimal shank to prise it up. This was triggered by your comment re the "best anchor in theory would be all fluke," or words to that effect. I was also influenced by this comment you made which sort of supports that shortcoming...

"I used a 13lb early XYZ anchor for a day and a half in Alison Harbour near QC Sound in a 50 knot gale. The boat sailed back and forth jerking the rode for hours and we didn't move. But the anchor refused to set more often than it did."

I suspect the old XYZ would have needed a pretty firm tug on that occasion cited above, would it not..? As to the later XYZs, who knows..? Hardly mainstream yet, but time will indeed tell. It may well be these even later generation spade-like, deep digging & curved shank anchors, might set a new benchmark..?
Cheers,

 

[Peter B]

Re my last sentence ...
I think I mucked up. The roll bar should pitch the anchor more straight up and other than the drag the roll bar presents it should be an asset to extraction. Not as I said. I thought about this as I was painting the deck in the fore cabin and salon today. Don't know what I was think'in.

Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks. So I can only assume she digs deep, and in that case the roll bar, which on the Super Sarca is solid steel and quite thin - much thinner than the Manson and Rocna, and that it might actually help in the levering out of the bottom by providing a sort of fulcrum for the fluke to rotate around. Just a theory, in our bay the vis is such there is no point me diving on it to try and find out.

 

[Peter B]

And if you're anchored for anything over a half day or more in tidal waters, what do you predict when the tidal current reverses?

In our bay Mark, that happens 4 times every 24 hours, as most of the anchorages are in channels, with current flow and therefore boat orientation, in line with the channel one way or the other - causes no issues. It either does not trigger the trip, or if it does on occasion, the thing re-sets so fast you don't even notice. Does that answer your question..?

 

[Peter B]

Haha Bruce .. The only time my Supreme failed to set I was using the slot for the first time w/o the restrictor bolt. Don't know for sure if the slot had anything to do w it's failure to set. But I think so.

Not so Eric, sorry, and sorry guys for putting up so many posts in succession but y'all keep asking questions that deserve a reply, and most of you are in bed right now.
The shackle in the slot when setting the slotted anchor is in exactly the same place it would be if the bolt preventing slot sliding was in place, so absolutely could not interfere with setting unless you did what I'm sure none of you would do, and that just drop the anchor, and then all the rode on top of it at a standstill, with no backing up at all. Even then unlikely, but it might be remotely possible if you managed to land it on its end with shank vertical, then dropped the lot on top. But actually, I have sometime deliberately anchored that way to see what happens, and the roll bar virtually makes it impossible to foul the shank, even trying hard.

 

[Peter B]

So… I feel I must ask… why are their not now more high-tech anchor designs manufactured using lightweight materials so that “pleasure” boaters no longer need to deal with over burdensome weights of old-school materials that create very heavy anchors?
Happy Anchor-Weight Daze! - Art

Oh heck, Art, I thought I could let up, but ye keep asking such good questions I hafta ansa. Abbreviating because I'm tired.

The Sarca Excel is available in lightweight alloy, like the Fortress, and Benn of Tidahapah attests to the fact it is extremely effective, and better still it dismantles in a nifty, easily reassembled way, which loses no strength doing so.

This is definitely me done on anchors for a good long time. I'm off to bed now - you guys will be getting up about now I suspect, so have at it...

 

[Nomad Willy]

As I said there's no problem w the present day XYZ Extreme (steel) that Draggo offers now. And the only problem w the old prototype is that it had lots of trouble setting. They both release and weigh fine. But I can see where one would think that would be a problem .. the longer the shank the greater leverage would be availible to rotate the flukes vertical to come out. I've used the XYZ quite a lot and never had a problem w extraction .. And never needed to put tension on it w a vertical rode and soak it up.

But one of the reasons the XYZ has such great short scope performance I think is the fact that the shank is so short.

Yes I said that the roll bar could be an asset in extraction. But a limited one as the drag of the rol bar plays a part. So it rotates the anchor fluke up so the fluke is easier to pull up but the roll bar impedes the process anyway. Just as it limits penetration by trying to pitch up the anchor after it's set and trying to dig down. Then pitching up is not a good thing while trying to penetrate. And I think that would be a good mod for the Supreme ... to replace it's fat and heavy roll bar w a skinny one like on the SARCA. But Manson did'nt want roll bars being damaged either. With my own anchor I can have it repaired easily. I've liked the skinny roll bar about the SARCA since the begining. But I think I have even a better design for the roll bar substitute and/or replacement.

I think it did take a bit of work to extract the prototype XYZ from the bottom after a day and a half of 50 knot wind. I could check my log.

Re the problem w My Supreme not setting last week when using the slot was only a problem because I had taken off the roll bar. With the roll bar in place I'm quite sure it would have set normally.

Sorry for posting posts? That what forums are for.

 

[Peter B]

I think it did take a bit of work to extract the prototype XYZ from the bottom after a day and a half of 50 knot wind. I could check my log.

Re the problem w My Supreme not setting last week when using the slot was only a problem because I had taken off the roll bar. With the roll bar in place I'm quite sure it would have set normally.

Sorry for posting posts? That what forums are for.

I'm back. Yeah Eric, you are right, that's what forums are for. And I think you just identified quite correctly what upset the set, Eric - no roll bar. That's why those leaflets or winglets are there on the Boss, Vulcan, and the new Sarca Excel. To flip them into the setting position asap. To make your Manson Supreme set reliably now that it has lost its roll bar, and not so supreme, is you would need to weld on winglets. Might be easier just to weld back on a roll bar - maybe a thinner one, like you mentioned. Or, better still, since you hate extra weight, (understandably), why not just shout yourself the new alloy Excel. You'd love it. Being light, shipping should be reasonable too. Then you'd have a chance to experience one of these newer anchors before you give up the game.
Just a thought.

 

[shufti]

Just posting as another 'Mason Supreme with shackle in the slot' - user. No problems to date with over 50 nights at anchor with the Supreme. Multiple tide chages along with 180 degree wind changes. Anchoring periods ranging between 12 and 72 hours. Not a single [noticed] slip, slide or other unwanted shenanigans from the Manson. I thkn the only way it could 'unset' itself is if the boat and chain were to reverse themselves directly in line with the anchor and layed out chain (ie - ride directly over the direction the chain and achor is facing). Even then - I'd say resetting would be pretty quick based on the setting I've experienced to date.

 

[Peter B]

Yup. Spot on Shufti. We share the same territory. Where do you moor by the way?

And are you going out this weekend..? it's a long'un, and the forecast is perfect.

 

[shufti]

No boating this weeknd, unfortunately, Pete. Just got back on Tuesday from a week in the Sandy Straits. Currently we're berthed in Bundy - but plan to bring her down to Scarborough in a month once current lease expires (and we get a weather window). We're all a little disappointed with the week just gone as the family had hoped for a last blast to Musgrave and/or Pancake Crk - weather saw the end of those plans. But although a bit miffed, we hardly 'slummed it' in the 'Straits.

Going back up Bundy this weekend - but not for boating. Some cleanup work on house up there to get it on the rental market.

 

[Nomad Willy]

shufti,
Like to know ....
Size of anchor, chain and boat? Length of chain and scopes used. Have you ever anchored at short scope and windy conditions? Do you use a bridal?

Sorry all the questions but it sounds like you've got experience to share. Like your avatar picture .. can we see it bigger?

 

[Nomad Willy]

I believe it's time to gather together all of the anchor threads and posts into a book so that Newbies can get up to speed quickly. It might not be a bad idea to convert them to Cliff Notes so that Newbies won't have to spend months reading the book. Who knows, it might be a best seller. We could share the profits and all buy new anchors.

OK Mr Mason .... you're on. But Mark's right. It would be very confusing. One could isolate quoted coments re subject matter such as slotted flukes, shank length. Anchor brand, new anchors/old anchors, shipping anchors, chain re performance, scope re prrformance, bridal ect, ect, ect.
Wouldn't take much skill ... just a lot of time and organizing skills. One couldn't make a book out of it as it's almost completely opinions and unverifiable experiences.

But for the most part shuch a thing already exists .. our anchoring section.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."

I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.

Most of the time I don't even notice when the slack is gone and I'm lifting the anchor off the bottom. And I use various anchors. But only once w a slotted shank and that really dosn't count as the anchor didn't set.

This means there's something very different happening. And Peter you wrote "to engage the trip mechanism". That means (to me) that you manipulated the rode to move the shackle to the heavy end of the anchor for extraction. How could you know? Does the anchor come up hanging on the shackle that is at the tripping end of the slot? Don't see any other way to know and I think once the anchor is out of the bottom it would hang from the usual working end of the slot.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Not so Eric, sorry, and sorry guys for putting up so many posts in succession but y'all keep asking questions that deserve a reply, and most of you are in bed right now.
The shackle in the slot when setting the slotted anchor is in exactly the same place it would be if the bolt preventing slot sliding was in place, so absolutely could not interfere with setting unless you did what I'm sure none of you would do, and that just drop the anchor, and then all the rode on top of it at a standstill, with no backing up at all. Even then unlikely, but it might be remotely possible if you managed to land it on its end with shank vertical, then dropped the lot on top. But actually, I have sometime deliberately anchored that way to see what happens, and the roll bar virtually makes it impossible to foul the shank, even trying hard.

Peter B,
Re my experience of the Supreme not setting I think the anchor landed on it's back (top of the shank down) and my backing down didn't swing the anchor around due to boat and anchor orentation. Or the shackle went to the heavy end of the anchor and flipped the shank over putting the anchor up side down. I expected to anchor several to many times before this happened. I plan to weld on a sort of longitudinal "hoop" parallel to the shank that would function like the roll bar. It would act much like the V shaped pad on the top of the SARCA. This appendage would be a little lighter that the roll bar and act much like the shank on the Boss, Vulcan and probably the Spade.

I may deliver the anchors to Steve (for submerged experimentation) or work on them myself this winter. Right now I'm scrambling to get things done on boat and around the house before non painting or freezing weather arrives.

 

[ranger58sb]

Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."

I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.

Most of the time I don't even notice when the slack is gone and I'm lifting the anchor off the bottom. And I use various anchors.

Without regard to slots, our normal is having to use the engines, and usually a 180-degree turn-around once the rode leads straight up from the anchor. That's with SuperMAX and Fortress. Not so often with the Deltas we used at one time...

-Chris

 

[shufti]

Eric,

You're going to hate me - the Anchor itself is a 45lb and the boat is a 35' flybridge ~ 10t dry weight - so 11-12 with fuel, water and family I guess. Not exactly sure of the chain size - 10mm i think. Not got around to needing replacement yet, so haven't investigated to be honest. I'm not even sure exactly how long the chain is. Somewhere around to 30-40m I've decided over the last two years since owning her.

By my 1missispi, 2missispipi guesstimation - the shortest scope I've used (by necessity) is 3:1. I've weathered 25-30kn winds at that scope for a few full days and many 1/2 days - but in a sheltered coral lagoon (Lady Musgrve Is).That is, sitting in 10m of water - and it mostly all out. I've never needed to test it at a lesser ratio due to the waterways and islands we frequent. Many of the anchorages we anchor in are fast flowing tidal - 2-3knt in places and commonly >=1.5knt. Bottoms range from well scrubbed fine gravel, sand and mud. If it's less than 10m deep I still let it pretty much all out if I can.

Thanks for the avatar pic comment. That is a pic of my (then 6yo) daughter on the sunset of our first night on our first weekend trip in the boat - anchored off Frazer Island after a fairly crappy-condition crossing of Hervey Bay. Got to bolt out the door now but I'll hunt a bigger version.

 

[Peter B]

Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."
I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.
That means (to me) that you manipulated the rode to move the shackle to the heavy end of the anchor for extraction. How could you know? Does the anchor come up hanging on the shackle that is at the tripping end of the slot? Don't see any other way to know and I think once the anchor is out of the bottom it would hang from the usual working end of the slot.

You are right Eric, most of the time it has slipped up to the normal place in the slot, but just once or twice when my 2iC has been doing the switch flipping, so I was able to be at the bow, armed with deck wash hose, anticipating weapons grade mud, I have witnessed it actually come up like you describe there, with the shackle down the fluke end, and the minute enough mud slides away from the water motion, it flips forwards with a distinct bucking effect so the shackle zooms back up to the end of the shank with fluke down.

I suspect it is the sticky mud that has made it possible for the shackle to stay down the fluke end of the slot that long. Normally, as you say, it looks in the normal place on coming into view, but I assume the fact it is often (unless after just a quick lunch pick drop, where I don't even bother to set it properly), so hard to budge unless I motor forward over it, that it is the trip mechanism at work. I am quite willing to admit however, that it might in many cases just be the leverage from the shank itself breaking her free. Whatever the explanation, she does not break free without a fight - and I like that.

 

[Marin]

We have to break out our rollbar anchor with the boat's power on occasion. And we've had to back the anchor out a couple of times with the trip line when it was fouled. But most of the time we retrieve the all-chain rode until the boat is directly over the anchor and then put a bit of pressure on the rode against one of the forward deck cleats and the boat's movement in the water is sufficient to work the anchor out of the bottom pretty quickly.

We don't believe in slotted anchor shanks for a couple of reasons (other than on a small fishing anchor where it makes good sense), and so far in our cruising boating have not encountered a situation where a slotted shank would have been beneficial.